new rules on the way boys and girls

2011

seaniefr wrote: »

Please read my previous post on this I Advocating registering electricians who do nixers to let them PAY tax but to do so on an ad-hoc basis in the hope that the revenue will come out of This and it will be a mostly win-win situation.

If electricians do nixers and pay tax on them, they are no longer nixers. The very definition of a nixer is that no tax is paid.

If an electrician does some work on the side of any type (electrical, bar work, plastering etc...) and declares it to revenue they will gladly tax you on it, so you have that wish granted already. You can set up as a sole trader or a public limited company for small money. I know this because I have done it more than once.

If they register they will still have to get PL, EL etc

Yes, the rules applied equally.

Are you suggesting that the authorities should allow people to carry out work with no insurance? Do you think that is wise?

I assume that you would still want the work tested and some sort of certificate issued? If so do you think the work should be inspected, by whom and who should pay for this inspection service?

will just make it feasible financially for them to do so and restrict to to JUST electricians and not DIY'ers that is what I am hoping for by giving this alternative approach to this idiotic legislation.

If electricians were permitted under law to carry out the same work as electrical contractors without the same overheads do you think that this is fair to the electrical contractors? Do you not think that electricians working for electrical contractors would see a wage reduction? I know that the nixer world is alive and well (and always will be) but it would take off if it were made legitimate.

If you are taxing the hell out of someone you have to give them an avenue to earn more money right?

Not in Ireland, no.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

What I would do is not relevant as it will change nothing.

But seeing as you ask I have always done all of my own wiring in my own home and will continue to do so.

Well it seems relevant enough, since I assume you wont worry about sleepless nights, while indicating I should.

Bruthal wrote: »

2011 wrote: »

How do I go about replacing my burning main switch now?

Ask yourself this, will you be able to sleep at night if you were to change out this unit in your capacity as a non-registered electrician ?
Would you spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder?

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

Well it seems relevant enough, since I assume you wont worry about sleepless nights, while indicating I should.

Sleepless nights? Me ???
Nothing that a large whiskey can't fix :D

2011

@ Bruthal

I think you are missing the point with remarks like:

How do I go about replacing my burning main switch now?

If you want to work on your distribution board I can not give you permission or authorise it, this is your call.

I simply stated what the position on restricted works is.

If you are going to ask "serious" questions like that expect an equally "serious" reply

Steve

Truth be told, this will have zero impact on DIY'ers replacing MCB's or 'burning main switches' in their own domestic DB.
Firstly, the won't have heard of this new reg / law so they'll carry on regardless.
Secondly, those that know and are competent will do it anyway knowing full well that the chances of them being found out are less than a cat's in hell.

Which leaves the obvious question: How will this be enforced in reality?

seaniefr

2011 wrote: »

If electricians do nixers and pay tax on them, they are no longer nixers. The very definition of a nixer is that no tax is paid.

If an electrician does some work on the side of any type (electrical, bar work, plastering etc...) and declares it to revenue they will gladly tax you on it, so you have that wish granted already. You can set up as a sole trader or a public limited company for small money. I know this because I have done it more than once.



Yes, the rules applied equally.

Are you suggesting that the authorities should allow people to carry out work with no insurance? Do you think that is wise?

I assume that you would still want the work tested and some sort of certificate issued? If so do you think the work should be inspected, by whom and who should pay for this inspection service?



If electricians were permitted under law to carry out the same work as electrical contractors without the same overheads do you think that this is fair to the electrical contractors? Do you not think that electricians working for electrical contractors would see a wage reduction? I know that the nixer world is alive and well (and always will be) but it would take off if it were made legitimate.



Not in Ireland, no.

I don't understand where you are coming up with your conclusions. All of the conclusions you have come to have been addressed in my previous posts?

2011

Steve wrote: »

Truth be told, this will have zero impact on DIY'ers replacing MCB's or 'burning main switches' in their own domestic DB.

Exactly.

Which leaves the obvious question: How will this be enforced in reality?

In general it won't.

There will be an increased number of people that will only use registered electrical contractors due to the publicity (radio adds by CER etc..)

Sooner or later some poor sod that wires something that goes on fire. He will then become the scapegoat and they will thow the book at him.

2011

seaniefr wrote: »

I don't understand where you are coming up with your conclusions.

Such as??

All of the conclusions you have come to have been addressed in my previous posts?

Not really, for example you did not address the following:

Are you suggesting that the authorities should allow people to carry out work with no insurance?

Would you think the work by these electricians tested and some sort of certificate issued?

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point

Yea, what a complex subject.

Im done here./

seaniefr

2011 wrote: »

Such as??



Not really, for example you did not address the following:

Are you suggesting that the authorities should allow people to carry out work with no insurance?

Would you think the work by these electricians tested and some sort of certificate issued?

1.
I said in my previous posts that anyone registering would have to get employers liability & public liability insurance.
2.
If they are being registered they can certify their own works?

I don't understand what was the problem with this statement. You said in a previous post that u understood about setting up a business so is it not logical that you would not understand this point. Have I missed something in your previous posts?
If everyone is on a level playing field then surely any REC has no reason for a gripe.....?

2011

seaniefr wrote: »

1.
I said in my previous posts that anyone registering would have to get employers liability & public liability insurance.
2.
If they are being registered they can certify their own works?

I don't understand what was the problem with this statement. You said in a previous post that u understood about setting up a business so is it not logical that you would not understand this point. Have I missed something in your previous posts?
If everyone is on a level playing field then surely any REC has no reason for a gripe.....?

Thanks for the clarification.

So in what way are you suggesting that they different from a registered electrical contractor?

seaniefr

2011 wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification.

So in what way are you suggesting that they different from a registered electrical contractor?

Turnover.

2011

seaniefr wrote: »

Turnover.

So you want electricians to do smoe work on the side but:

1) You agree that they must pay tax on it.
They can already do this - so no change from what we have at present

2) ... and you agree that they must have public liability insurance.
This is already a requirement - so no change from what we have already

3) ....and you agree that they must have employers liablity insurance.
From this I conclude that they would have employees (otherwise they would not need employers liabilty insurance).
So no change from what we have already

4) .... and in this post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85814133&postcount=178 you state that they must be registed (with RECI or ECSSA I assume as there is nobody else).
Therefore no change from what we have already in place.

5) In this post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85818489&postcount=193 you state that it would be a "level playing field" with registered electrical contractors, by that I assume you mean that these individuals would have all of the same expenses as the competition (REC's).
So no change from what we have already

6) .....and you agree that they must certify all of thier work.
So no change from what we have already



I am confused, it would seem that you want electricians who want to do some work on the side to comply with exactly what CER, the revenue and RECI or the ECSSA already want. Everything that you are looking for is already permitted.

From what I can see your proposal is that you want electricians that have full time jobs to have the option of becoming registered electrical contractors in every single way, except that they may not be doing this work full time. My point is that they can do this legally already, regardless of thier company turnover. So no change from what we have already

It is possible and legal to meet the requirements to becoming an REC while in full or maybe part time employment as an electrician for another company (or in some other role).

seaniefr

2011 wrote: »

So you want electricians to do smoe work on the side but:

1) You agree that they must pay tax on it.
They can already do this - so no change from what we have at present

2) ... and you agree that they must have public liability insurance.
This is already a requirement - so no change from what we have already

3) ....and you agree that they must have employers liablity insurance.
From this I conclude that they would have employees (otherwise they would not need employers liabilty insurance).
So no change from what we have already

4) .... and in this post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85814133&postcount=178 you state that they must be registed (with RECI or ECSSA I assume as there is nobody else).
Therefore no change from what we have already in place.

5) In this post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85818489&postcount=193 you state that it would be a "level playing field" with registered electrical contractors, by that I assume you mean that these individuals would have all of the same expenses as the competition (REC's).
So no change from what we have already

6) .....and you agree that they must certify all of thier work.
So no change from what we have already



I am confused, it would seem that you want electricians who want to do some work on the side to comply with exactly what CER, the revenue and RECI or the ECSSA already want. Everything that you are looking for is already permitted.

From what I can see your proposal is that you want electricians that have full time jobs to have the option of becoming registered electrical contractors in every single way, except that they may not be doing this work full time. My point is that they can do this legally already, regardless of thier company turnover. So no change from what we have already

It is possible and legal to meet the requirements to becoming an REC while in full or maybe part time employment as an electrician for another company (or in some other role).

Yes i agree all of this is possible
so seeing as it is that easy......why are the ECSSA & RECI membership lists not over flowing with members?

2011

seaniefr wrote: »

Yes i agree all of this is possible
so seeing as it is that easy......why are the ECSSA & RECI membership lists not over flowing with members?

It is easy to set up as a registered electrical contractor, the difficult bit is to make reasonable money from it.

Define overflowing
Some would say they are overflowing, (I certainly felt they were during the boom).

In my own opinion (speaking as an ex-electrical contractor) the main issues that REC's face is:

1) Electrical contractors have to compete against those that are doing nixers.

2) To a large extent the market has vanished.

3) This is a very expensive contry to run a legitimate buisness in. Overheads are high.

4) You will be competing against those that ignore the regulations. Being compliant often means that you are too expensive.

.G.

Just seen the TV advert for this. Nice wording they have used.

"from the 1st of october only a REC is allowed to do electrical work in your home"

No mention of the type of works that are restricted,just a nice catch all statement that the regular joe's will take as gospel.

mikeyariss

superg wrote: »

Just seen the TV advert for this. Nice wording they have used.

"from the 1st of october only a REC is allowed to do electrical work in your home"

No mention of the type of works that are restricted,just a nice catch all statement that the regular joe's will take as gospel.

like joe customer will care if he wants a cheap job doin' huh

i wonder if they arrest a few qualified sparks
caught in the act to show they mean business huh!

liveandnetural

new rules

more importanly is this the end of (THE BOARDS ELECTRICAL THREAD)

From the 1st of October 2013 only a Registered Electrical Contractor (REC) can carry out most electrical work in your home *

http://www.safeelectric.ie/index.php



how this is ever going to be enforced in dont know

Bruthal

liveandnetural wrote: »

more importanly is this the end of (THE BOARDS ELECTRICAL THREAD)

No, because foreigners use it as well, apparently:pac:

From the 1st of October 2013 only a Registered Electrical Contractor (REC) can carry out most electrical work in your home *

What would we do without RECs to fix our faulty lighting MCB (etc)

how this is ever going to be enforced in dont know

Checkpoints searching for MCBs in your car.

Steve

Bruthal wrote: »

Checkpoints searching for MCBs in your car.

:D:D

And, tools.

They'd charge you with going equipped to fix..

marknjb

I wonder how much my boss is going to charge me when I ask him to come out to connect my new garage supply

Bruthal

marknjb wrote: »

I wonder how much my boss is going to charge me when I ask him to come out to connect my new garage supply

He might charge you, then get you to actually do the work, and pay you. A win/win situation:D

2011

liveandnetural wrote: »

new rules

more importanly is this the end of (THE BOARDS ELECTRICAL THREAD)

There have been many electrical questions and much discussion of all things electrical following the introduction of every piece of legislation in the history of the state, I don't see how this would change that :D

nc63

Bruthal wrote: »

I think that bit is the only factor of concern to them. How many are killed each year in homes due to bad electrics? Its probably not even 1 a year. If saving lives was priority, there are other areas with far more casualties where efforts could be focused.

But they would cost money rather than netting more, something like a go safe van monitoring a dual carriageway that has a 40kph limit, a safe stretch off road, but with a silly limit ideal for revenue generation.

Neither of the registration bodies play any part in establishing or updating regulations. They also don't test their member's competency, either on joining or on an ongoing basis, unlike other countries where a "license to practice" is required. So being a REC is a guarantee of nothing in particular.

As a qualified spark and a qualified electrical engineer, I've seen work carried out by RECs that was nothing short of appalling. When I contacted the registration body in question, they couldn't have been less interested.

So as qualified spark and experienced qualified engineer who keeps up to date with changes in the regs, I can be prosecuted for doing a job on my own property that would probably be a damn sight better (and cheaper) than some self-certified cowboy who probably never read the regs in their lives, but happens to have contributed to the "registered contractor" shakedown.

This another wallet-lightening scam, nothing more, nothing less.

Nice one, Pet Rabbit.

nc63

seaniefr wrote: »

or are we talking about electricians who haven't done their trade exams?

Electricians who haven't done their trade exams are not electricians.

nc63

mikerodgers96 wrote: »

rubbish

Given that being a REC is not a proof of competency*, can you say what else this legislation is intended to achieve other than ensuring all electrical work is carried out by RECs, forcing competent and qualified one-man shops to contribute to the REC shakedown and ensuring the state gets its peace of the action?

*If you believe being a REC is proof of competency, then I'd be interested to know how you've arrived at that conclusion.

nc63

2011 wrote: »

Sooner or later some poor sod that wires something that goes on fire. He will then become the scapegoat and they will thow the book at him.

Given the shoddy nature of the REC'd work I've had the misfortune to encounter, the chance of the "poor sod" being a REC are just as good as they are for him being the local handyman. What then?

Steve

^^ all it means is you've paid yet another tax.


IMO, more sub standard sparks will be able to exploit innocent consumers in the name of 'safety'.

2011

nc63 wrote: »

Neither of the registration bodies play any part in establishing or updating regulations. They also don't test their member's competency, either on joining or on an ongoing basis, unlike other countries where a "license to practice" is required. So being a REC is a guarantee of nothing in particular.

Agree totally.
In my opinion this situation will persist for as long as we have self certification.

As a qualified spark and a qualified electrical engineer, I've seen work carried out by RECs that was nothing short of appalling. When I contacted the registration body in question, they couldn't have been less interested.

Exactly my situation and experience.

So as qualified spark and experienced qualified engineer who keeps up to date with changes in the regs, I can be prosecuted for doing a job on my own property that would probably be a damn sight better (and cheaper) than some self-certified cowboy who probably never read the regs in their lives, but happens to have contributed to the "registered contractor" shakedown.

In theory you could be prosecuted for doing electrical work in your own home, but reality the chances of this happening are very remote.

Although I am not a fan of this legislation, at least RECI can be reported to CER when they choose to ignore ETCI regulations. I had more than one experience of an inspector from one of the bodies siding with his customer (the REC) despite undeniable breaches of the regulations.

Stoner

nc63 wrote: »

Electricians who haven't done their trade exams are not electricians.

Yes they are, plenty of time served electricians out there with no senior trade qualifications, in fact there is still a defined rate for a time served/no exam electrician.