The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) **SPOILERS for all books & future books**

Burt Macklin

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Whose head has Qyburn used to make Robert Strong, Robb Stark or King Robert, we know it is most likely The Mountains body that has been used, I would imagine either Robb or King Robert have been used hence the name Robert.

My personal favourite theory is that Qyburn used Falyse Stokeworth's head, mainly because the image of The Mountain's body with Falyse's head is hilarious.

chickenboy

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Whose head has Qyburn used to make Robert Strong, Robb Stark or King Robert, we know it is most likely The Mountains body that has been used, I would imagine either Robb or King Robert have been used hence the name Robert.

I'm sure a vision Bran had suggests that he doesn't have any head at all. It was three knights looming, one I took to be the hound, one to be Jamie, and the other with oozing black blood and darkness when he opened his helm.

Mr Freeze

chickenboy wrote: »

I'm sure a vision Bran had suggests that he doesn't have any head at all. It was three knights looming, one I took to be the hound, one to be Jamie, and the other with oozing black blood and darkness when he opened his helm.

This. It does sound like them 3 alrite. The golden one could be The Viper too, but more than likely Jamie.

While Bran is in a coma from his fall in A Game of Thrones, he has a dream while flying with the three-eyed crow:
“ "There were shadows all around them. One Shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them loomed a Giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

Gbear

Mr Freeze wrote: »

This. It does sound like them 3 alrite. The golden one could be The Viper too, but more than likely Jamie.

What's the connection?

Sandor is his brother.
Jamie is his brother of the Kingsguard.

chickenboy

Gbear wrote: »

What's the connection?

Sandor is his brother.
Jamie is his brother of the Kingsguard.

The only connection was that they were threats to the Starks, rather than a connection between the three Knights (I think!)

Gbear

chickenboy wrote: »

The only connection was that they were threats to the Starks, rather than a connection between the three Knights (I think!)

No, I was saying that there was a connection and it's that they're all brothers of some sort.

Gbear

Gbear wrote: »

No, I was saying that there was a connection and it's that they're all brothers of some sort.

martell could be brother of a fallen princess?
maby a stretch

Mr Freeze

This letter that Ramsay sent...what do ye think of it?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastard_Letter

Do ye think it was actually Ramsay that sent it or some one else? He seems to know an awful lot about the going on's in Castle Black, but then obviously hasn't defeated Stannis, as Stannis has Theon.

Kunkka

Mr Freeze wrote: »

This letter that Ramsay sent...what do ye think of it?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastard_Letter

Do ye think it was actually Ramsay that sent it or some one else? He seems to know an awful lot about the going on's in Castle Black, but then obviously hasn't defeated Stannis, as Stannis has Theon.

My first thought was Stannis sent it to get Jon to break his vows and come south.

FunLover18

Mr Freeze wrote: »

This letter that Ramsay sent...what do ye think of it?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastard_Letter

Do ye think it was actually Ramsay that sent it or some one else? He seems to know an awful lot about the going on's in Castle Black, but then obviously hasn't defeated Stannis, as Stannis has Theon.

Kunkka wrote: »

My first thought was Stannis sent it to get Jon to break his vows and come south.

I definitely don't think it is (want it to be) Ramsay. There is an argument to be made however that Stannis sent Theon away, but I don't think so.

It could be Mance, having somehow taken over Winterfell from the Boltons, trying to lure Jon out. If it's not Ramsay then it has to be someone who know Mance is still alive which is a very small number of people.

Gbear

Mr Freeze wrote: »

This letter that Ramsay sent...what do ye think of it?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastard_Letter

Do ye think it was actually Ramsay that sent it or some one else? He seems to know an awful lot about the going on's in Castle Black, but then obviously hasn't defeated Stannis, as Stannis has Theon.

My guess is that it was Ramsay and everything in it is true as far as he knows.

The Manderlys have butchered the Freys and gone over to Stannis.
Stannis gives them his sword, a few of his men stick on some Frey clothing and banners and they stroll back to Winterfall with Stannis' army not too far behind.

They'll get into Winterfell and either butcher the remaining forces loyal to the Dreadfort and lock the gates, awaiting the return of Davos with Rickon, or else they'll unlock the gates and let Stannis in regardless.

In either case, they can essentially hold Stannis hostage until their plans with Davos bear fruit.

Any information in the letter could've been tortured out of Mance or given by Stannis to the Manderlys and on to Ramsay.

There's quite a few possibilities but I think that one is the most likely.

Mr Freeze

Either Mance or Stannis could easily have sent it I suppose, based on info from Theon.

I never thought of Ramsay actually sending it, based on misinformation from the Manderleys though.

The only thing that makes it really seem like it might have been Ramsay, was the constant use of the word Bastard when referring to John, and then signing off as "Trueborn Son". That really sounds like something Ramsay would do.

5starpool

Hopefully the release date for this will be announced soon, although I am certainly not holding my breath. A release about this time next year with the release date announced this summer would be nice, possibly to coincide with the last episode of the TV show, and release with the first episode next season!

I'll start my re-read about 3-4 months before release date I reckon, although I could probably re-read the WoT 3 times over while waiting for release of this (I won't obviously).

TimeToShine

5starpool wrote: »

Hopefully the release date for this will be announced soon, although I am certainly not holding my breath. A release about this time next year with the release date announced this summer would be nice, possibly to coincide with the last episode of the TV show, and release with the first episode next season!

I'll start my re-read about 3-4 months before release date I reckon, although I could probably re-read the WoT 3 times over while waiting for release of this (I won't obviously).

I don't expect an announcement until 2015 and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the book took until late 2016/early 2017. The man is getting to a point in his life where he wants to spend the time left with his loved ones/doing what he enjoys, and unfortunately writing the books we want is not one of them.

To be perfectly honest I'd be happy with his guarantee that the series will actually get finished.

Gbear

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Either Mance or Stannis could easily have sent it I suppose, based on info from Theon.

I never thought of Ramsay actually sending it, based on misinformation from the Manderleys though.

The problem I'd have with Stannis sending it is that it doesn't seem very Stannisy. If Jon broke his vows Stannis would take his head.

It'd be a bit cheeky to engineer Jon breaking his vows only to behead him for helping him after.

Mance is another one I like to an extent - the letter aligns perfectly with his motivations as well.
But I don't see how he could possibly be free, unless he's been taught how to glamour people (rather than Mel doing it for him) and has taken Ramsay's face.

Mr Freeze wrote: »

The only thing that makes it really seem like it might have been Ramsay, was the constant use of the word Bastard when referring to John, and then signing off as "Trueborn Son". That really sounds like something Ramsay would do.

Also the bit about eating hearts. Classic Ramsay.

The only problem I'd have with Ramsay being the sender is that nobody knows who Mance is so how did Ramsay find out? I know he's a renowned torturer and presumably anyone could be broken, but there's no way for anyone to verifiy who Abel is.
He could've said he was some random wildling that Jon sent and that ought to be more plausible to Ramsay than him being a man who thousands saw die.

One explanation is that Mance told him freely for some reason. Maybe he's manipulating Ramsay? Maybe he promised him the wildlings? Maybe he promised him the North and they'd remove Roose?

Mr.Prodston

When I was reading it I thought it sounded a lot like Mance. I was sure it was him who wrote it

Mr Freeze

hotshots85 wrote: »

George R R Martin has posted a new chapter on his blog, link below.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

Separate thread created for this, but should be edited in to the 2nd post in this thread along with the other sample chapters (probably)

valor rorghulis

I think Ramsay wrote it based on false information.

intellectual dosser

Really interesting interview with George R. R. Martin in Rolling Stone (found via Reddit)

I was particularly interested in the part he mentioned 'who really killed' Joffrey.

celica00

TimeToShine wrote: »

I don't expect an announcement until 2015 and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the book took until late 2016/early 2017. The man is getting to a point in his life where he wants to spend the time left with his loved ones/doing what he enjoys, and unfortunately writing the books we want is not one of them.

To be perfectly honest I'd be happy with his guarantee that the series will actually get finished.

How would you know that, did he ever mention such a thing?

TimeToShine

celica00 wrote: »

How would you know that, did he ever mention such a thing?

No he didn't, I am just going based on assumptions and I'd be happy to be proven wrong, Aim low and avoid disappointment is my game!

celica00

TimeToShine wrote: »

No he didn't, I am just going based on assumptions and I'd be happy to be proven wrong, Aim low and avoid disappointment is my game!

alright, you frigthened me for a second ha

intellectual dosser

Was talking with a friend last night about Tyrions outcome in this series on TV, and I decided to go back and read the chapter again.

I'm sure you all remember it, but after Jamie tells Tyrion that Tysha wasnt a whore, he asks if he actually killed Joffrey. Tyrion, livid at the Tysha revelation:

You poor stupid blind crippled fool. Must I spell every little thing out for you? Very well. Cersei is a lying whore, she’s been ****ing Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know. And I am the monster they all say I am. Yes, I killed your vile son

It was unnecessary, and stupid, anyone think this will have consequence in the future?

hidinginthebush

Can you fill an non-show watcher in on Tyrion's outcome? What happened?

Mr Freeze

intellectual dosser wrote: »

It was unnecessary, and stupid, anyone think this will have consequence in the future?

I don't think it was unnecessary at all (unfortunate yes, unnecessary no).....it has consequences on how both Jamie and Tyrion think at least for the next 2 books, it maybe even changes the way Jamie behaves.

Both characters end up thinking of the exchange in nearly every of their following chapters.

Jamie is always thinking:

She’s been ****ing Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know.

And Tyrion thinks of Tysha loads:

Where do whores go?

I hope the exchange is in the show, but I doubt it. They would want to preserve Tyrions character, as I felt he let himself down at the moment a bit...Nobody will think less of him what he does before escaping, but for saying that to Jamie they might.

A Neurotic

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Was talking with a friend last night about Tyrions outcome in this series on TV, and I decided to go back and read the chapter again.

I'm sure you all remember it, but after Jamie tells Tyrion that Tysha wasnt a whore, he asks if he actually killed Joffrey. Tyrion, livid at the Tysha revelation:



It was unnecessary, and stupid, anyone think this will have consequence in the future?

It always seemed odd to me that Tyrion would say that. Given that he and Jaime have been shown to be quite close since Jaime's earlier return on the show, it'll be interesting to see if it's repeated in the show.

Although the downstream effects could possibly be quite significant, so they might have to make it happen.

intellectual dosser

hidinginthebush wrote: »

Can you fill an non-show watcher in on Tyrion's outcome? What happened?

Next weeks episode is the finale when we expect to see Tyrions escape played out.

TimeToShine

hidinginthebush wrote: »

Can you fill an non-show watcher in on Tyrion's outcome? What happened?

You've read the books but don't watch the show? You're a rare breed!

intellectual dosser

Mr Freeze wrote: »

I don't think it was unnecessary at all (unfortunate yes, unnecessary no).....it has consequences on how both Jamie and Tyrion think at least for the next 2 books, it maybe even changes the way Jamie behaves.

Telling Jamie that lie was unnecessary, he told him just to piss him off after hearing about Tysha. Jamie didn't care much for Joffrey but I'm sure he still believed in his brothers innocence and was using as motivation behind the escape.

Mr Freeze

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Telling Jamie that lie was unnecessary, he told him just to piss him off after hearing about Tysha.

Ya, but it could be necessary for both characters development from that point on...

I was disgusted when I read it, he definitely shouldn't have done it.

intellectual dosser

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Ya, but it could be necessary for both characters development from that point on...

I was disgusted when I read it, he definitely shouldn't have done it.

Ah, yes, different depending on whether you're looking from Tyrions view or Martins.

hidinginthebush

TimeToShine wrote: »

You've read the books but don't watch the show? You're a rare breed!

Haha! I just got fed up with it, I think the turning point was when they had Cat release Jamie, and then find out about Bran and Rik. That and having Jon fight the Halfhand with no prelude whatsoever.

Gbear

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Telling Jamie that lie was unnecessary, he told him just to piss him off after hearing about Tysha. Jamie didn't care much for Joffrey but I'm sure he still believed in his brothers innocence and was using as motivation behind the escape.

I don't think you can blame him.

Because we only hear a first hand account of what happened to Tysha (rather than witness it) it's a bit abstract.

But really, Jamie was complicit in lying to Tyrion about his wife actually being a whore, and, as a result, getting gangraped by dozens of men before Tyrion was forced to have a go.

It was an absolute atrocity and it destroyed Tyrion as a young man. It scarred him for life, never mind what it did to the woman Tyrion married.

He was liable to do anything when Jamie told him. Jamie should consider himself fortunate that Tyrion wasn't armed or he probably would've killed him.

December2012

At Comic Con George announced that Jeyne Westerling will feature in the prologue of TWOW.

Gbear

December2012 wrote: »

At Comic Con George announced that Jeyne Westerling will feature in the prologue of TWOW.

So she's dead then?:p

Mr.Prodston

December2012 wrote: »

At Comic Con George announced that Jeyne Westerling will feature in the prologue of TWOW.

Wow, do you know anymore before I scramble around the internetz? That's a scoop potentially! Was she meant to be with the blackfish I forget?

Son0vagun

He confirmed she's in the prologue, but not the POV. It's the POV that always dies!

Mr.Prodston

Well at least we know the prologue is written anyway :pac:

Sleepy

December2012 wrote: »

At Comic Con George announced that Jeyne Westerling will feature in the prologue of TWOW.

The great Northern conspiracy seems more likely?

intellectual dosser

"I'm not actually writing an episode for Season 5," Martin tells Zap2it during an interview after the show's San Diego Comic-Con 2014 panel. "As you may know, there's this book that people are kind of getting antsy about delivering. It takes me roughly a month to do an episode, so I decided, given the realities, I'd better skip this one this season and just concentrate on finishing the book."

Well thanks be to jaysis.

clashburke

Son0vagun wrote: »

He confirmed she's in the prologue, but not the POV. It's the POV that always dies!

I seen on Westeros.org that George siad he might break his own POV rule!!

Ger Whelan

Tyrion can't die.

GerB40

Ger Whelan wrote: »

Tyrion can't die.

Ned couldn't die. He did.
Cat/Robb couldn't die. They did.
Oberyn couldn't die. He did.

And now that GRRM says he might change his POV rule, Tyrion most certainly can die.. (I really hope he doesn't).

Paddy Cow

GerB40 wrote: »

Ned couldn't die. He did.
Cat/Robb couldn't die. They did.
Oberyn couldn't die. He did.

And now that GRRM says he might change his POV rule, Tyrion most certainly can die.. (I really hope he doesn't).

What's the POV rule?

Mr Freeze

Paddy Cow wrote: »

What's the POV rule?

The POV character in the opening chapter of each book gets killed.

Ger Whelan wrote: »

Tyrion can't die.

I always felt no character is safe after Ned's death, I didn't know Tyrion was GRRMs favourite until after I had the books, and I was sure he was gonna die in book 3 and a few times in book 5 (lions or the plague).

I thought it would have been some end to him to have him die in someone else's POV with only us readers knowing who he is.

hidinginthebush

Didn't GRRM say his wife told him she'd leave him if he killed Tyrion?

Duckworth_Luas

hidinginthebush wrote: »

Didn't GRRM say his wife told him she'd leave him if he killed Tyrion?

That was Arya, his wife's favourite character.

Tyrion is GRRM's favourite, so I believe his neck is safe until the final book.

Paddy Cow

Mr Freeze wrote: »

The POV character in the opening chapter of each book gets killed.

Thanks. I never noticed that!

GerB40

http://www.kdramastars.com/articles/37792/20140916/winds-of-winter-release-date.htm

We've heard it all before but is there any reason to get our hopes up??

Mr Freeze

GerB40 wrote: »

http://www.kdramastars.com/articles/37792/20140916/winds-of-winter-release-date.htm

We've heard it all before but is there any reason to get our hopes up??

Sounds plausible.

Launch the book the same time as the new series airs.

Think they did the same with A Dance of Dragons.