Abortion Discussion

lazygal

Piliger wrote: »

Of course it is. It's just that there are only a tiny number of them.

How do you know? Maybe some women see their decision to abort as trivial and don't need to discuss it as its not something that affects them. I would venture that some women feel bad because of the taboo about talking about abortion rather than the abortion itself. And perhaps many regret not having an abortion and remaining pregnant, but that's even more of a taboo.

Loafing Oaf

Piliger wrote: »

I believe that 95% do. Women I have known, who are now in their 50s, have carried that decision heavily. I find nothing criticisable about your view, but I believe it is extremely unusual.

I'd imagine this varies greatly between countries. Haven't done any investigation into the research or anything, but I remember reading that in Japan for instance there is very little angst about the decision to abort because there is no taboo on the subject in their culture.

Obliq

Piliger wrote: »

So ... in a more than likely vain re-attempt to breathe life into this topic ...

Damn, I knew this was going to kick off in an interesting way soon. Not in a place or time to get stuck in really. It's not a vain attempt though - you ask interesting questions and respectfully, so fair play.

lazygal wrote: »

Its not always a big, big decision. Plenty of women make the decision without heartrending analysis. I think its presented as though its a major life changing decision, for whatever reason, but for example Caitlin Moran said picking worktops for her kitchen was a more difficult decision. Having had two children I'd find abortion a very easy choice in some circumstances, such as in the case of a fatal abnormality or if I didn't want any more children.

Totally with this. I don't know anyone who regrets an abortion. I'm sure there are loads of women who do (apparently) but I only know ones (of all ages) who a)did not have to think twice, b) knew then and know now that it was totally the right thing to do, c)are sick of all the concentration on 'when does life begin?'/'what about rape cases?'/'TFMR?' as it's so far removed from addressing the FACT that healthy women are aborting healthy embryos (at as early a stage as possible) without being traumatised at all (EXCEPT by the crisis pregnancy and the thought of parenthood at that time). To me, this is not an uncomfortable fact. It is just a fact of life (and death).

Piliger wrote: »

I don't go along with this. I believe that the overwhelming and vast majority of women would consider this an agonising an life affecting decision.

Piliger wrote: »

I believe that 95% do. Women I have known, who are now in their 50s, have carried that decision heavily. I find nothing criticisable about your view, but I believe it is extremely unusual.

I believe you are mistaken on both of those comments and I wonder where you get a)your figures, and b) your notion that this is an unusual view. Perhaps because you haven't heard it before that much? That would be fair enough. You won't have heard this much because the apologists for this 'moral issue' have been out in full force on this one. This might be a bit controversial up here among the various pro-choice views, but the impression I have had is that pragmatic realism has not been welcome in this 'hearts and minds' debate.

I'm no apologist. Abortion kills a small human life. Potential person. Individual. Unique and all that. Yes it does. Much like killing an animal, because you need to/have to. There are moral issues of course, but not worse IMO than those encountered if you actually had to kill your own animals for food, for example. Needs must. Even selfish ones.

Wonder how many can get with that?! Off to bed now and busy all day till evening tomorrow, but would be very interested in responses

iwantmydinner

Obliq, I think I love you for expressing so manner-of-factly most of my feelings towards abortion. You win today.

Piliger

lazygal wrote: »

How do you know? Maybe some women see their decision to abort as trivial and don't need to discuss it as its not something that affects them. I would venture that some women feel bad because of the taboo about talking about abortion rather than the abortion itself. And perhaps many regret not having an abortion and remaining pregnant, but that's even more of a taboo.

Maybe maybe maybe .... how do you know ?

Piliger

Obliq wrote: »

Wonder how many can get with that?! Off to bed now and busy all day till evening tomorrow, but would be very interested in responses

I'm disappointed you chose that topic to respond (though I appreciate your opening comments) because let's face it neither I nor you nor lazygal have any substantive national or international evidence to support our views. I am in my 50s and have known quite a few ladies from whom I draw my opinions. But like you and lazygal we are only basing our views on pour personal knowledge and intuition.

We should all probably leave that 'agree to disagree' point there imho. :cool:

Turtwig

Science does investigate the reasons why women have abortions. The risk associated with the various procedures and how women feel afterwards. Some groups distort the crap out it but there's enough reviews and reports to provide us with a picture.

Obliq

Piliger wrote: »

Maybe maybe maybe .... how do you know ?

I know this was for lazygirl, but I know three women who feel that way, for starters.

Obliq

Piliger wrote: »

Maybe maybe maybe .... how do you know ?

Piliger wrote: »

I'm disappointed you chose that topic to respond (though I appreciate your opening comments) because let's face it neither I nor you nor lazygal have any substantive national or international evidence to support our views. I am in my 50s and have known quite a few ladies from whom I draw my opinions. But like you and lazygal we are only basing our views on pour personal knowledge and intuition.

We should all probably leave that 'agree to disagree' point there imho. :cool:

Hold on a sec...WHY are you disappointed I responded to this topic? For me, this IS the topic. I mean, what you were discussing last night.

This is a most interesting part of the debate for me - it is the "so what about abortion? What's the big deal?" voice that gets drowned out when we all have a go at debating a zealous anti-choicer and one by one every tear jerking circumstance gets paraded for their disapproval so we can see how heartless they are not to allow for abortion for family members who have been raped for example. I've done this myself. In fact I've even, on t'other forum, spoken about my own experience of rape in order to get one of them to "say it to my face", as it were.

But it's a waste of time, I've concluded, when to my knowledge most women are perfectly healthy and of sound mind/body (as is that probably of the tiny fetus, if we did but know it - usually before 12 weeks of age innit? So no scan necessary for someone who's going to abort) and are having a crisis pregnancy that is a total and utter crisis because they have absolutely no intention of carrying or producing a child at that time. We are spectacularly missing the important point of debating the morality of killing a human (tiny human), and how we women are fine with that, also in selfish circumstances, when push comes to shove. Regrets, maybe - but would probably do the same again.

I'm sure you know the way yourself. I have had to forgive myself for plenty in my life - abortion wasn't one of them, and I can't say it would have been one of the regrets - plenty do not regret them at all and why should they? That is a question?

Also, is there a topic you'd prefer me to respond to?

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

I know this was for lazygirl, but I know three women who feel that way, for starters.

Due to my time on the Abortion Underground in the 80s plus a life lived in many countries with people of many cultures and ethnicities I know a lot of women who have had abortions.
The Irish women who came to the UK generally were more concerned that anyone would find out and the repercussions of that then having an abortion. The vast majority were relieved afterwards. If there was any 'agonising' I never heard it, they certainly didn't talk about it - the spoke of the fear of what would happen if anyone found out and over and over over again sought assurance that we would keep their 'secret'.

Most of the British women I knew who had abortions were so blasé about it that at first it shocked little young Irish me. I waited for them to show all those negative emotions we, in Ireland, have been led to expect are the inevitable result but they were more 'meh' about it. Contraception failed = had abortion - fancy a coffee? They didn't deny or justify. Simply stated it as a fact - rather like saying they had undergone any other medical procedure. Nor did they expect judgement.


I should point out that most of these women had children and were damn good mothers or, if they didn't have children, generally were self-aware enough to know that they would have been terrible mothers for various reasons and 'wouldn't do that to a child'.

Women from Muslim backgrounds were concerned about what their extended family would say but feared older women more as the chances of the menfolk finding out was minimal as one just didn't tell men about 'women's stuff'.

In Ireland we want women to 'agonise' - we want it to be traumatic. We want them to suffer. We want there to be extenuating circumstances so we can say 'sure bless them...what an agonising choice...such a shame...but walk a mile in their shoes like..'

We do not want women to say 'meh - my body/my choice. Mind your own business.' We want to believe as a society that every woman really really wants every pregnancy and will only abort if there is a crises.

That simply is not true. Some women just do not want to be pregnant/have children and so if they become pregnant - end it. It is a pragmatic decision. Wanting women to agonise makes us feel better about their actions when in reality, their reasons are none of our business.

Yes- there are women who do agonise - but 95%...I don't think so!

Obliq

Exactly Bann. I agree that the only crisis for most women IMO is the "Fcuk fcuk FCUK, I'm pregnant" crisis.

Isn't it extraordinary that when we speak about this matter of factly, we don't get to do it for long? In Ireland, this voice is the one that is rather encouraged to shut up, because you're putting people off the pro-choice cause. Interestingly, none of the women I know who have had abortions have joined the debate, because they feel there's no point when it's all about the hearts and minds - TMFR, rape etc. and ALSO, this being Ireland and they all having good jobs, would like to remain in said jobs without fear of their abortion decision having an impact. Which it could. As we can all imagine (don't anyone tell me that's too fanciful).

How long do you reckon we have Bann, before someone comes along and with all due respect lets us know that our personal anecdotes have no bearing on the statistical analysis that says we are all regretting ourselves all the time?

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Exactly Bann. I agree that the only crisis for most women IMO is the "Fcuk fcuk FCUK, I'm pregnant" crisis.

Isn't it extraordinary that when we speak about this matter of factly, we don't get to do it for long? In Ireland, this voice is the one that is rather encouraged to shut up, because you're putting people off the pro-choice cause. Interestingly, none of the women I know who have had abortions have joined the debate, because they feel there's no point when it's all about the hearts and minds - TMFR, rape etc. and ALSO, this being Ireland and they all having good jobs, would like to remain in said jobs without fear of their abortion decision having an impact. Which it could. As we can all imagine (don't anyone tell me that's too fanciful).

How long do you reckon we have Bann, before someone comes along and with all due respect lets us know that our personal anecdotes have no bearing on the statistical analysis that says we are all regretting ourselves all the time?

Can't be long now - hell, I still meet people who insist I must have found realising I am a lesbian traumatic/agonising/ blah blah - I didn't. Not for a second.
Aged 8 I saw a tomboy doing excellent wheelies on her bike and thought 'oooohhhh - I like her.' End of story. Zero Trauma.

lazygal

I'd love something like this in Ireland: http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_image.cfm?image_id=1592


Just "normal" women who've had a normal medical procedure that hasn't scarred them for life. I'm mighty sick of the "most difficult decision" narrative. If I wanted an abortion it would be an easy decision, as my decision to remain pregnant was. Or my decision to go to college or get highlights or get married was.

Sarky

Any girlfriends I've ever had have been of the "I'd have an abortion and really wouldn't agonise over it" variety. Initially surprised little ol' used-to-be-Catholic me, but it quickly turned to admiration. Having a position backed up with damn good reasons tends to do that.

/anecdotal evidence

I really don't think, Piliger, that your experiences are the norm. At least, not any more. The taboos drilled into this society primarily by the church are losing their grip in a big way. That includes the notion we should be horrified by abortion and that it has to be an agonising decision.

Morag

lazygal wrote: »

I'd love something like this in Ireland: http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_image.cfm?image_id=1592


Just "normal" women who've had a normal medical procedure that hasn't scarred them for life. I'm mighty sick of the "most difficult decision" narrative. If I wanted an abortion it would be an easy decision, as my decision to remain pregnant was. Or my decision to go to college or get highlights or get married was.

It is being worked on but it's still so very taboo it's hard for people to speak out.

Also it's a privacy issue for some women, who feel they should not have to publicly disclose their medical history.

When having to do so in Maternity hospitals is still difficult enough thing to do.

There are more and more women that I have meet over the last 5 years who are that matter of fact about it. Deciding to have an abortion wasn't the difficult thing, the difficult thing and what causes the stress is finding the money and making the arrangements to travel to have one.

Being in a crises pregnancy situation causes stress, lack of access to abortion services exacerbates the stress.

Countries were pregnant people can go to their dr or to a clinic and get the abortion pill, with minimal stress and fuss results in crises pregnancy, drastically reduced the impact on mental health.

Piliger

Sarky wrote: »

I really don't think, Piliger, that your experiences are the norm. At least, not any more. The taboos drilled into this society primarily by the church are losing their grip in a big way. That includes the notion we should be horrified by abortion and that it has to be an agonising decision.

I believe that most of the women I mix with had abortions 20+ years ago and it is possible that their attitudes toward what they did has changed over the years. Hence the inconsistency.

Piliger

Obliq wrote: »

Hold on a sec...WHY are you disappointed I responded to this topic? For me, this IS the topic. I mean, what you were discussing last night.

No it isn't. Don't get me wrong - it is an important topic.

But I was trying to kickstart the original discussion on abortion and the ethical practical attitudes of Atheists toward abortion and the questions surrounding the balance of rights between a foetus and the host mother, and how that should influence society's legislation of abortion.

Piliger

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes- there are women who do agonise - but 95%...I don't think so!

Unfortunately it is fashionable to be blase about it now and even women who are not so tend to feel they have to put on a show.

What is clear from everyone here is that they, including me, are basing their views on their personal experience which is enormously unrepresentative of the real world. No one here knows the real truth of what women feel about it either shortly after or many years later. And surveys also tend to produce very dubious results because of the opposing agendas that the survey people tend to have.

lazygal

Do you think women shouldn't be blasé about abortion? Do you think it should be a difficult decision to make and live with?

Morag

Shortly after there is a hormone re balancing happening as the body goes from being pregnant to resetting of the menstrual cycle so being weepy or cranky/angry is normal for any interrupted pregnancy and this can last from 6 weeks to 12 weeks.

Sulla Felix

Piliger wrote: »

Unfortunately it is fashionable to be blase about it now and even women who are not so tend to feel they have to put on a show.

What is clear from everyone here is that they, including me, are basing their views on their personal experience which is enormously unrepresentative of the real world. No one here knows the real truth of what women feel about it either shortly after or many years later. And surveys also tend to produce very dubious results because of the opposing agendas that the survey people tend to have.

All that means is that we can't use either narrative as a point to argue about. You're essentially saying we can't know how women really feel, but I still think I'm right so nyah.
Fsck that. If we can't know for sure, remove that point from the debate, there's still plenty to disagree about.

Piliger

Sulla Felix wrote: »

All that means is that we can't use either narrative as a point to argue about. You're essentially saying we can't know how women really feel, but I still think I'm right so nyah.
Fsck that. If we can't know for sure, remove that point from the debate, there's still plenty to disagree about.

Hence my suggestion about agreeing to differ.

lazygal

Piliger wrote: »

Hence my suggestion about agreeing to differ.

I don't agree to differ. I don't think its accurate to suggesd 95% of women find abortion an agonising decision to make or live with.

Piliger

lazygal wrote: »

Do you think women shouldn't be blasé about abortion? Do you think it should be a difficult decision to make and live with?

I don't think people should feel anything that they don't. And I don't buy into the claims made here that women are pressured to 'agonise' of the decision. That is a fantasy.

But I certainly do believe that ending a life growing inside you, whether it be primitive, or no matter how far from gaining person status it is, is a weighty decision to be put in the position of having to make.
Certainly there are people who can weigh the situation up more easily than others, and who can come to a clear decision easier than others. But that does not lessen the weight of the choice for any reasonable person.

Also any discussion of how a woman might feel or not feel is a discussion without context if it takes place without reference to how people feel about when a foetus changes from a bundle of cells to a simple life to a human life to a person.

Bannasidhe

Piliger wrote: »

I don't think people should feel anything that they don't. And I don't buy into the claims made here that women are pressured to 'agonise' of the decision. That is a fantasy.

But I certainly do believe that ending a life growing inside you, whether it be primitive, or no matter how far from gaining person status it is, is a weighty decision to be put in the position of having to make.
Certainly there are people who can weigh the situation up more easily than others, and who can come to a clear decision easier than others. But that does not lessen the weight of the choice for any reasonable person.

Also any discussion of how a woman might feel or not feel is a discussion without context if it takes place without reference to how people feel about when a foetus changes from a bundle of cells to a simple life to a human life to a person.

To me this reads as:


You would agonise therefore all women will/should?

You would agonise therefore women who say they didn't are mistaken or they are not 'responsible persons'?

It doesn't really matter what a women might feel until we work out how society feels?

Here is the thing that gets lost in all of this crap about agonising/ feelings/ crises:

At the end of the day - a woman's body belong to the woman and to that woman alone.

Feck how society 'feels'

TBH feck how you or anybody else 'feels'.

MY BODY = MY CHOICE.

/Story.

Morag

Yup the double guilt bind, if you don't feel bad about ending the life inside you,
then you can feel guilty about not feeling bad about ending the life inside you.

Most women from a young age will have had a pregnancy scare and even if they haven't
will have already thought about ending a pregnancy if they don't think the time is right
for them to become a parent.

Piliger

Bannasidhe wrote: »

To me this reads as:


You would agonise therefore all women will/should?

You would agonise therefore women who say they didn't are mistaken or they are not 'responsible persons'?

It doesn't really matter what a women might feel until we work out how society feels?

Here is the thing that gets lost in all of this crap about agonising/ feelings/ crises:

At the end of the day - a woman's body belong to the woman and to that woman alone.

Feck how society 'feels'

TBH feck how you or anybody else 'feels'.

MY BODY = MY CHOICE.

/Story.

Strange isn't it. Your posts read to me as the exact same ...

Piliger

Morag wrote: »

Yup the double guilt bind, if you don't feel bad about ending the life inside you,
then you can feel guilty about not feeling bad about ending the life inside you.

Most women from a young age will have had a pregnancy scare and even if they haven't
will have already thought about ending a pregnancy if they don't think the time is right
for them to become a parent.

You seem to have some kind of boring guilt obsession. I certainly don't think any woman should feel guilty about an abortion.

Morag

I don't but I do know it is used to stigmatize and silence those who have had abortions,
so that so few share their stories. This is slowly changing but it has to be called out and addressed.
It is a factor in why there are so few studies on this.

Obliq

Piliger wrote: »

But I was trying to kickstart the original discussion on abortion and the ethical practical attitudes of Atheists toward abortion and the questions surrounding the balance of rights between a foetus and the host mother, and how that should influence society's legislation of abortion.

First off. The thread 'Abortion discussion' offers no such narrow guidelines for what we should discuss, so I don't see where your 'original discussion' thing is coming from. Anyhow - you would like to discuss the balance of rights. How DO you propose we all do that without people basing their opinions on their personal experiences (of others that they know, if not their own)?? Do you think we should just fire statistical analysis at each other and ignore the fact that we have opinions?

Piliger wrote: »

What is clear from everyone here is that they, including me, are basing their views on their personal experience which is enormously unrepresentative of the real world. No one here knows the real truth of what women feel about it either shortly after or many years later. And surveys also tend to produce very dubious results because of the opposing agendas that the survey people tend to have.

Women are not all the same. I shouldn't have to say that. Nobody is claiming to know what all women feel. However, your statement that personal experience is unrepresentative of the real world IS a bit odd. We are not living in a bubble, we are all part of the real world.

Sulla Felix wrote: »

All that means is that we can't use either narrative as a point to argue about.

Exactly. How do you have a debate about either the balance of rights between foetus and woman or what society feels about it without our personal narratives?

Piliger wrote: »

Also any discussion of how a woman might feel or not feel is a discussion without context if it takes place without reference to how people feel about when a foetus changes from a bundle of cells to a simple life to a human life to a person.

You cannot have your cake and eat it, in this instance. You cannot have a discussion about when a foetus changes to a person without hearing about people's feelings in a personal context.

I think it would be important for you to know that THIS woman, whatever about the multitude of other women, considers that a clump of cells/foetus/embryo IS a person (writ very small indeed) but I have no more problem saying I would do away with one that accidentally inhabited my body at any stage in the future, than I would in having the stray female cat put down that keeps depositing kittens at my door.

By the way, if you call this view 'fashionable', you would be mistaken.