Abortion Discussion

Sulla Felix

Alright, lets move on from the women should/do/don't/shouldn't feel guilt issue because it's just going to go around in circles.

Maybe a presumption, but I'm going to guess most of the pro-choicers put a limit on it, in other words, after week x, an abortion for discretionary purposes is not allowed?

If so, what happens after this if the woman decides she doesn't want to remain pregnant? Personally, I think if the foetus is viable and within the realms of possibility that it'll survive outside the womb, it should be delivered as she so pleases.

As I said I put that x week at about 22 weeks, but it's not an emotive choice, I could be convinced otherwise if the small amount of literature I've read is wrong about that being the point of viability outside the womb.

Lingua Franca

Piliger wrote: »

Unfortunately it is fashionable to be blase about it now and even women who are not so tend to feel they have to put on a show.

This is quite insulting. You've swung from

Piliger wrote: »

I believe that the overwhelming and vast majority of women would consider this an agonising an life affecting decision.

...to women putting on a "show" because it's "fashionable to be blase about it".

<>

Obliq

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Alright, lets move on from the women should/do/don't/shouldn't feel guilt issue because it's just going to go around in circles.

Maybe a presumption, but I'm going to guess most of the pro-choicers put a limit on it, in other words, after week x, an abortion for discretionary purposes is not allowed?

If so, what happens after this if the woman decides she doesn't want to remain pregnant? Personally, I think if the foetus is viable and within the realms of possibility that it'll survive outside the womb, it should be delivered as she so pleases.

As I said I put that x week at about 22 weeks, but it's not an emotive choice, I could be convinced otherwise if the small amount of literature I've read is wrong about that being the point of viability outside the womb.

Well, I don't think it's too much of a presumption at all, to think that most pro-choicers (if not all) would be willing and able to come up with a limit on abortion for discretionary purposes.

To an anti-choicer, I may have already come across as some heartless biatch for being willing and not particularly fussed about killing an undeveloped human embryo, but to me it's really down to it's undevelopedness (new word, sorry pedants).

Last year when this issue came up again after Savita died, my eldest (now 15) brought it up with me as they had talked about it in school. First off, he couldn't believe that abortion wasn't available here as it was elsewhere (I had to explain rather embarrassedly about the RCC influence on sexuality and reproductive choice) and I explained that the debate came down to the relative values of a foetus and a grown woman and that in the constitution, these are equal in value - hence, no abortion. He said, that's ridiculous mum, surely people get more valuable as they get older? Now, obviously we went on to talk about how valuable a newborn baby is to it's parents, and how valuable a wanted foetus is in comparison to an unwanted one.

The value of each and every foetus to it's parents and to society is SO subjective that I have no idea where you could draw a line and say this one is more important (age 22 weeks and one day) to this one (age 22 weeks minus one day). It's a massive problem, and there can be no sensible consensus that is morally justified for all. Therefore society has to draw a line that is based on a physical stage rather than on a subjective experience (even if it's a collective value) of how important a foetus might be.

I go with the physical attainment of viability as well (whatever medical professionals say that stage is at, unless in the cases of severely disabled foetuses whose disability doesn't show up until after the viability threshold) to be a line after which discretionary abortion shouldn't be allowed. Although I would personally not be comfortable with getting an abortion after the 12 week stage (unless the foetus was in major trouble and could have a severely reduced quality of life. that would be a whole other decision to make).

Sorry, I know this is tl;dr but I can't seem to condense points like some of you

Piliger

<Mod SNIP: Personal Insult. Not necessary>

Obliq

<>

Ouch.

<>

And ouch.

Not trying to back seat mod here, but was any of that strictly necessary?

Piliger, I thought you were starting it there earlier by speaking as if you know what a woman's experience is (any woman's, even your friend's experiences). You wouldn't like a woman to tell you how she thinks men have responded to something in a certain way because it's 'fashionable' or that men say a certain thing because they 'feel' under pressure. Those things are for a man to tell us, not the other way round. You might get away with saying something subjective about other men's experiences because you are male. Just sayin'.

Lingua, you could have found a less reactive thing to say. I'm going to catch it from a mod here for moderating (or as I like to call it, being moderate, but honestly.....I was enjoying this discussion and now it's probably buggered up again. Sigh. :mad:

Turtwig

Obliq wrote: »

<>

Ouch.

<>

And ouch.

Not trying to back seat mod here, but was any of that strictly necessary?

Piliger, I thought you were starting it there earlier by speaking as if you know what a woman's experience is (any woman's, even your friend's experiences). You wouldn't like a woman to tell you how she thinks men have responded to something in a certain way because it's 'fashionable' or that men say a certain thing because they 'feel' under pressure. Those things are for a man to tell us, not the other way round. You might get away with saying something subjective about other men's experiences because you are male. Just sayin'.

Lingua, you could have found a less reactive thing to say. I'm going to catch it from a mod here for moderating (or as I like to call it, being moderate, but honestly.....I was enjoying this discussion and now it's probably buggered up again. Sigh. :mad:

I'm a moderator and I approve of this message.

Obliq

Jernal wrote: »

I'm a moderator and I approve of this message.

Right then.....um, ta. I'll stop second guessing you now

Back to the baybee wars (dons helmet, picks up shield...)

Morag

http://www.dailylife.com.au/life-and-love/real-life/how-to-talk-about-abortion-regret-20131120-2xvio.html

Is anyone honestly surprised that some women regret having an abortion? It's not as if the decision to terminate a pregnancy is one that is made flippantly.

Pregnancy is a game-changer; having a child means your life will never be the same again. If life were a film, getting pregnant would serve as a catalyst, an event that sends the story in a completely different direction to where it was heading only moments before.

So it stands to reason that making a choice that alters this trajectory is going to, for some at least, have long-ranging repercussions.
<i></i>

And yet, such is the stigma around abortion that regret is something that, until recently, is not spoken much of in the pro-choice community (at least not publicly), even as it used as a sort of trump card by the pro-choice camp who seem to feel that a few women regretting their own difficult choice is enough reason to deny all other women a choice at all.

Women often have regrets, I regret that the first time I was pregnant it wasn't planned and a joyous discovery to be shared with friends and family as I was planning to start a family.
I regret having to travel, but I like my life as it is now, and the children I now have, if I had not have had
my abortion then my life would be very different, but I made my choice.

There are things in my life I do regret doing, certain choices I which I had of done differently but that choice was not one of them.
We all have such crossroads in our lifes, some we barely think about and others which seem to haunt us.

Nodin

Obliq wrote: »

Right then.....um, ta. I'll stop second guessing you now

Back to the baybee wars (dons helmet, picks up shield...)

And the club. Don't forget the club.

Obliq

Nodin wrote: »

And the club. Don't forget the club.

Ah yes, for the baby seals. And foetuses. Thanks for the reminder. I swear, if my head wasn't screwed on...

Morag, I love all your posts. Thank you
However, this one I don't get. Do you think that quote is supposed to say 'pro-life' instead of 'pro-choice' where I've highlighted? Otherwise it doesn't make sense or ring true to me at all. It's the anti-choice side that use abortion regret as a trump card to deny ALL women abortions, no?

"And yet, such is the stigma around abortion that regret is something that, until recently, is not spoken much of in the pro-choice community (at least not publicly), even as it used as a sort of trump card by the pro-choice camp who seem to feel that a few women regretting their own difficult choice is enough reason to deny all other women a choice at all."

Morag

It can be painted black and white by people making arguments on both sides when it's more complex then most people want to think about, cos well people and their lives are complex.

I do know someone who regrets their abortion and has been told they can't really be prochoice,
which is rubbish. When we let ourselves become polarized we leave out and marginalise people.

Obliq

Morag wrote: »

It can be painted black and white by people making arguments on both sides when it's more complex then most people want to think about, cos well people and their lives are complex.

I do know someone who regrets their abortion and has been told they can't really be prochoice,
which is rubbish. When we let ourselves become polarized we leave out and marginalise people.

Well yes, agreed. But if you look at that last sentence, it fails to make that point clear at all. It just looks like a mistake in who they're talking about. I honestly didn't pick up what you've just said from that passage you quoted, sorry!

I actually don't personally know anyone who regrets their abortion - that's not to say there isn't a woman down the road that I don't know who does regret one. I do know a woman who regrets running over her dog and is having serious trouble coming to terms with it. I do know a woman who regrets the relationship with her ex to the extent that she can't get on with her kids. I know people with all sorts of regrets - big ones. Like you indicated before.
And yes, I'm full sure their voice is as nullified as those who say they have no regrets.

We will not find a middle ground for how people feel. That's why we should just acknowledge abortion is a reality, draw a legal line and acknowledge and help women before, during and after the experience.

Morag

I took it as to mean they shouldn't have the choice to feel regret. The language used is clumsy.

Nodin

Some people - for whatever reason - will doubt their choices, or regret that they had to make them, and there's nothing that can be done about that, as its part of the human experience. We can try to eliminate the aura of shame, silence and guilt however, that can afflict others with regret for all the wrong reasons.

MrPudding

So it seems like Austrailia might be following America's example of making abortions more difficult through the back door, as it were.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/22/make-no-mistake-zoes-law-is-an-assault-on-womens-reproductive-rights

MrP

Turtwig

Eu is experiencing some pressure too.

Sarky

In very amusing news, the @Ireland Twitter account is currently being curated by someone who takes a very dim view of Youth Defence's bullsh*t. Is it one of you guys? :pac:

Interestingly, @Ireland's followers have increased since this happened. It's almost like YD have no support that doesn't come from outside the country...

Obliq

Sarky wrote: »

In very amusing news, the @Ireland Twitter account is currently being curated by someone who takes a very dim view of Youth Defence's bullsh*t. Is it one of you guys? :pac:

Interestingly, @Ireland's followers have increased since this happened. It's almost like YD have no support that doesn't come from outside the country...

Great job he's doing, whoever he is. He's managing to keep everything very rational and above board. If you are here Diarmaid (currently curating @ireland), can you come to the cork A&A thingy please?! (Sometimes I wish I tweeted, but I'd only drive myself mad. Gave up face book for a reason.)

robindch

Concordatwatch is keeping tabs on how the world's religions are lining up together to prohibit not only abortion, but other forms of contraception too:

Concordat Watch wrote:

The Vatican alliance with the US Evangelicals to outlaw contraception has worldwide repercussions. It solidifies domestic opposition to US contributions to health clinics in developing countries and the UN population Fund. It also helps cut off funding for contraception on a global scale. This alliance has now been extended to include the large Russian Orthodox Church and the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. Now the Vatican — doubtless with its eye on China — is making overtures to the Buddhists.

The United Nations says access to contraception is a universal human right that could significantly improve the lives of women and children. Yet the Vatican wants to deny them this human right and prevent women from deciding how many children they can provide with a good start. It tries to outlaw the most effective methods of family planning by defining them as "abortion". (See "A biologist sets the pro-lifers straight") To extend this ban worldwide the Vatican needs help and it has been mustering religious allies one by one:

1994 — Joint document Document Evangelicals and Catholics Together pledges cooperation "to secure the legal protection of the unborn." This provides encouragement for the Quiverfull movement which began among conservative US Evangelicals who eschew all forms of contraception.

2006 — The group endorses the Vatican’s “culture of life” programme, This formalises what had already become a working relationship and gives the Vatican powerful allies in areas like the US, Latin America and Africa where Evangelical Protestant churches are making great gains

2011 — Russian Orthodox Church calls for a “strategic alliance” with other religions teaching that life begins "at inception" (as if this were its own idea). The effectiveness of this alliance can be seen in the success two years later of the Georgian Orthodox Patriarch, Ila II, in getting the government to consider a ban on abortions.

2013 — Israel's chief rabbis equate abortion with murder. Leaders of the International Jewish Committee for Interreligious Consultations go to the Vatican to discuss what to them it calls “the problem of disrespect for the human person".
— In the Catholic and Southern Baptist leaders team up to press for a “conscience rights” bill, which could help make abortion even harder to obtain in the US.
— The Vatican's senior diplomat, Cardinal Tauran, urges a joint commitment with the Buddhists to “unmask the threats to human life.” The Vatican thinks in centuries and doubtless this is being done with an eye on China which will some day have more religious freedom. There are slightly more Chinese in the world than Catholics, with 1.3 billion Chinese just surpassing the world’s 1.2 billion Catholics.

What if “China opens up and becomes the greatest field of Christian mission since the Americas?” asked an article in the Catholic Education Resource Center. For one, it might create a different Catholic-Muslim global balance, projected in the article to be 1.3 billion Catholics to 1.8 billion Muslims by 2025, the article said.

And what of the Muslims? To avoid being handicapped in the demographic race, especially in Africa, how long will it be until prominent Muslim leaders add their voices to denounce the only effective methods of family planning? Even without official religious sanction, women's reproductive rights are being limited by the increasingly Islamicist government of Turkey. “Borrowing a page from America’s Christian right” it has been accused of trying to impose an abortion ban through the back door.

Cabaal

even though Northern Ireland has fools that think the earth is 6,000 years old and Adam & Eve had Raptors and T-rex as pets thankfully you still have people with sense

http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-laws-northern-ireland-1207918-Dec2013/

David Ford said he wants a public consultation into changing abortion laws to allow women carrying babies with fatal foetal abnormalities to have a termination.

Now if only somebody in the rest of Ireland would push for this also,

A response today to such a change and a change for rape/incest cases is..............the god squad!

“It doesn’t matter what people’s feelings are, Audrey. Sure, if 99% of people vote to have babies killed it doesn’t make it right and it doesn’t make it right what you’re doing. God doesn’t allow it. You are flying in the face of God, killing human beings which he has created and you will answer some day for it.”

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/12/05/flying-in-the-face-of-god/

Sierra 117

God doesn't allow it? Funny, he doesn't seem to be doing anything to stop it from happening.

Morag

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/catholic-bishops-sued-over-medical-care

In what is believed to be the first lawsuit of its kind, the American Civil Liberties Union is suing the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops and a Catholic hospital in Michigan for negligence in treating a woman with dangerous pregnancy complications.

The suit is on behalf of Tamesha Means, a mother of three who was 18 weeks pregnant when her water broke. At Mercy Health Partners (MHP), the Catholic hospital where she sought care (the only hospital within miles), no one told her her fetus had almost no chance of survival under the circumstances, or that she was at risk for serious infection if labor was not induced to terminate the pregnancy. Instead, she was sent home and told to come back a week later.

lazygal

Will they try to argue that the foetus in that case isn't a person like they did before I wonder?

rawn

From a pro-lifer friend-of-a-friend on Facebook

To whoever said about a woman's choice and that we should all have a choice. What about the women who do not have a choice ? did you not see that in Britain a young women was forced to have an abortion last week she was sedated and everything!! It happens all the time to young girls especially those who are in custody of the state. They do NOT have a choice. This is what the abortion industry does not only does it force people to have abortions it also covers up child abuse and rape. Throughout planned parenthood in America there is girls as young as 13 going into clinics and asking for abortions and when asked who the father is they say hes an older man and in one undercover video I watched the nurse actually said lets just say he was your boyfriend. Did she follow this up ? No ! they don't care as long as they reach there targets. Another abuse that the industry has is that it promotes racism.. Did you know that in America you can donate money to help fund abortions for women who cannot afford it and when donating the money you can state whether it be a white or black baby ? I have a friend who worked in post abortion counselling who said that at least 50% of women regret what they have done and cannot move on from it. This new law that has come into this country states that if a woman is suicidal she can abort up to 9 months !!! This is crazy. All leading mental health doctors in the country stood up in the dail and stated that this was a crazy reason to grant an abortion because the woman is not in the right state of mind. But did the government listen no because abortion is a business for them they do not care about women. This is all facts. Look them up if you don't believe its scary but the truth. I have spents days on FB debating this issue so I am not gonna carry this on all night but although this article show extremes of pro choicers I do not think its fair to say that all pro choice people would do this however I feel that a lot of people need to research before they take opinion on this topical issue!

I don't even

Turtwig

At least the spelling and punctuation is decent. I mn, it wos fb lik. xxx

lazygal

The grammar is appalling. There, their and they're are not interchangeable.

robindch

lazygal wrote: »

There, their and they're are not interchangeable.

They are if you can't spell.

Delirium

rawn wrote: »

From a pro-lifer friend-of-a-friend on Facebook

To whoever said about a woman's choice and that we should all have a choice. What about the women who do not have a choice ? did you not see that in Britain a young women was forced to have an abortion last week she was sedated and everything!! It happens all the time to young girls especially those who are in custody of the state. They do NOT have a choice. This is what the abortion industry does not only does it force people to have abortions it also covers up child abuse and rape. Throughout planned parenthood in America there is girls as young as 13 going into clinics and asking for abortions and when asked who the father is they say hes an older man and in one undercover video I watched the nurse actually said lets just say he was your boyfriend. Did she follow this up ? No ! they don't care as long as they reach there targets. Another abuse that the industry has is that it promotes racism.. Did you know that in America you can donate money to help fund abortions for women who cannot afford it and when donating the money you can state whether it be a white or black baby ? I have a friend who worked in post abortion counselling who said that at least 50% of women regret what they have done and cannot move on from it. This new law that has come into this country states that if a woman is suicidal she can abort up to 9 months !!! This is crazy. All leading mental health doctors in the country stood up in the dail and stated that this was a crazy reason to grant an abortion because the woman is not in the right state of mind. But did the government listen no because abortion is a business for them they do not care about women. This is all facts. Look them up if you don't believe its scary but the truth. I have spents days on FB debating this issue so I am not gonna carry this on all night but although this article show extremes of pro choicers I do not think its fair to say that all pro choice people would do this however I feel that a lot of people need to research before they take opinion on this topical issue!

I don't even

The woman in England had a c-section, not an abortion.

lazygal

Prolifers don't seem to understand that termination of pregnancy is not the same as termination of life. I've had two terminations of pregnancy and two healthy babies.

Sierra 117

koth wrote: »

The woman in England had a c-section, not an abortion.

Isn't an abortion the ending of a pregnancy though?