Abortion Discussion

Turtwig

Obliq wrote: »

Ah mbiking, with these insults you are truly spoiling us. I take it English isn't your first language?



Well, considering your religiosity, that's no surprise. You clearly need no evidence for your beliefs.

Easy there bliqy.

S/He was asked the question as to what it meant. Crucially though he has yet to the provide the meaning S/HE meant.

mbiking123

Obliq wrote: »

Well, considering your religiosity, that's no surprise. You clearly need no evidence for your beliefs.

I have no evidence that aborted babies soul go to heaven, but that is my belief

Turtwig

mbiking123 wrote: »

I have no evidence that aborted babies soul go to heaven, but that is my belief

Theologically then isn't the best thing to abort all babies? Heaven is after all the ultimate goal for any living being. Abortion = free pass into heaven

mbiking123

Jernal wrote: »

Theologically then isn't the best thing to abort all babies? Heaven is after all the ultimate goal for any living being. Abortion = free pass into heaven

Well, heaven being the ultimate goal hence suicide bombers get in straight away to heaven, back to Taliban again

So if I want to get into heaven, if I do a suicide job on an abortion clinic then we will all go to heaven. Women that are seeking an abortion will no longer need one - Theologically speaking

Theologically speaking to gain the happiness of heaven we must know, love, and serve God in this world

_rebelkid

mbiking123 wrote: »

Well, heaven being the ultimate goal hence suicide bombers get in straight away to heaven, back to Taliban again

I'm assuming you are referring to Muslim Extremest Suicide bombers, to which heaven is an anti-Allah myth, an affront to Allah's paradise of Jannah... but this is an Abortion thread, not a Religious one, so I'll stop there...

So if I want to get into heaven, if I do a suicide job on an abortion clinic then we will all go to heaven. Women that are seeking an abortion will no longer need one - Theologically speaking

Theologically speaking to gain the happiness of heaven we must know, love, and serve God in this world

And is serving god inclusive of murder, suicide and killing babies? Can one show love for a creator by brutally killing its creation? Might as well have a good ol stare back at Sodom for the distance to heaven that will get you.

Blowing up an abortion clinic is, in my opinion, not very "pro-life" now is it... killing babies, but taking the heathen women with them... I was wrong, it's totally in-line with pro-life ideology.

mbiking123

_rebelkid wrote: »

And is serving god inclusive of murder, suicide and killing babies? Can one show love for a creator by brutally killing its creation? .

Thank you it answers this question

Jernal
Theologically then isn't the best thing to abort all babies

In fact it hits the nail on the head of why abortion is wrong

_rebelkid

mbiking123 wrote: »

In fact it hits the nail on the head of why abortion is wrong

So it's wrong to send babies to heaven... are you sure? Either that or they don't go...

Turtwig

mbiking123 wrote: »

Well, heaven being the ultimate goal hence suicide bombers get in straight away to heaven, back to Taliban again

So if I want to get into heaven, if I do a suicide job on an abortion clinic then we will all go to heaven. Women that are seeking an abortion will no longer need one - Theologically speaking

Theologically speaking to gain the happiness of heaven we must know, love, and serve God in this world

Um, that wasn't my point. My point was that you liberally interpreted common religious doctrine to suit your own belief that aborted babies get into heaven. For this to be true you have to acknowledge the possibility of sacrifice for a greater good, that all mothers abort their babies. Thus, every subsequent human generation would end up in heaven. The current generation sacrifices themselves to hell for the sake of all future generations spending it in heaven.

It is probably a topic for a different thread, but the usual resolution taken is that a baby who dies prematurely at birth or as an embyro has no automatic passageway to heaven.

Absolam

Emm...

mbiking123 wrote: »

Theologically speaking to gain the happiness of heaven we must know, love, and serve God in this world

mbiking123 wrote: »

I have no evidence that aborted babies soul go to heaven, but that is my belief

How can the souls of aborted babies get to heaven if they haven't known, loved, and served god in this world? In fact, have never done anything at all in this world? Or do they just go to heaven and not gain any happiness? That seems a bit mean.

Canis Lupus

I wonder what the soul of an embryo is like.... Does it get to grow up in heaven or what?

Cabaal

mbiking123 wrote: »

I have no evidence that aborted babies soul go to heaven, but that is my belief

You also have no evidence that anyone's soul goes to heaven or that heaven even exists, but sure don't let that stop you.

aloyisious

I find the videos a very strong indicator that prayer works, imagine the temptation those poor men must have felt with all the wimmen flashing their boobies at them and spitting at them :-,)

mbiking123

_rebelkid wrote: »

So it's wrong to send babies to heaven... are you sure? Either that or they don't go...

It is clear from the Scriptures that an unborn baby is known by the Lord, even from the time of conception (Psalm 139:13-16). Although the Bible does not mention abortion or aborted babies,
In 2 Samuel 12 we learn of David’s affair with Bathsheba, another man’s wife. David was informed by the prophet Nathan that the child produced by that union would die. David then began to fast and pray, asking the Lord to not carry out His judgment. When the child did die, David got up from praying and fasting and ate something.
When asked about this behaviour David uttered the words recorded in 2 Samuel 12:23, “Now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” David’s words reflect a clear understanding that the child could not come back to earth, but David would be with his child one day in heaven. This indicates not only David’s assurance of his own future in heaven (Psalm 23:6), but also the assurance that his child would share that future. From this account, we can conclude that infants who die are destined for heaven.


Now I am sure that answers the question on babies going to heaven

mbiking123

aloyisious wrote: »

I find the videos a very strong indicator that prayer works, imagine the temptation those poor men must have felt with all the wimmen flashing their boobies at them and spitting at them :-,)

I am sure there is no temptation from a person who is near naked, spitting and spraying aerosol cans of paint. Yes those poor men, more examples of violence from the extreme lefty side

Peregrinus

mbiking123 wrote: »

It is clear from the Scriptures that an unborn baby is known by the Lord, even from the time of conception (Psalm 139:13-16). Although the Bible does not mention abortion or aborted babies,
In 2 Samuel 12 we learn of David’s affair with Bathsheba, another man’s wife. David was informed by the prophet Nathan that the child produced by that union would die. David then began to fast and pray, asking the Lord to not carry out His judgment. When the child did die, David got up from praying and fasting and ate something.
When asked about this behaviour David uttered the words recorded in 2 Samuel 12:23, “Now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” David’s words reflect a clear understanding that the child could not come back to earth, but David would be with his child one day in heaven. This indicates not only David’s assurance of his own future in heaven (Psalm 23:6), but also the assurance that his child would share that future. From this account, we can conclude that infants who die are destined for heaven.

The Israelites of David's time had no concept of a heavenly afterlife; this was a much later arrival. When David says that he will go to the child he simply means that he, too, will die in his time.

Ps 23:6 is not a reference to heaven or eternity. The Hebrew which is conventionally translated as "forever" in fact means "for a length of days"; it's a poetic version on the phrase on the "all the days of my life" language used in the first half of the verse.

pauldla

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Israelites of David's time had no concept of a heavenly afterlife; this was a much later arrival. When David says that he will go to the child he simply means that he, too, will die in his time.

Ps 23:6 is not a reference to heaven or eternity. The Hebrew which is conventionally translated as "forever" in fact means "for a length of days"; it's a poetic version on the phrase on the "all the days of my life" language used in the first half of the verse.

Ah Peregrinus, but in this matter, as in others, the Israelites were in error of such profunditiy that it necessitated the New Testement. So his interpretation has validity, has it not?

_rebelkid

mbiking123 wrote: »

It is clear from the Scriptures that an unborn baby is known by the Lord, even from the time of conception (Psalm 139:13-16). Although the Bible does not mention abortion or aborted babies,
In 2 Samuel 12 we learn of David’s affair with Bathsheba, another man’s wife. David was informed by the prophet Nathan that the child produced by that union would die. David then began to fast and pray, asking the Lord to not carry out His judgment. When the child did die, David got up from praying and fasting and ate something.
When asked about this behaviour David uttered the words recorded in 2 Samuel 12:23, “Now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” David’s words reflect a clear understanding that the child could not come back to earth, but David would be with his child one day in heaven. This indicates not only David’s assurance of his own future in heaven (Psalm 23:6), but also the assurance that his child would share that future. From this account, we can conclude that infants who die are destined for heaven.


Now I am sure that answers the question on babies going to heaven

All that proves is that he knew what death was, and that he too would die. The posts above this also explain the flaws.

oldrnwisr

mbiking123 wrote: »

It is clear from the Scriptures that an unborn baby is known by the Lord, even from the time of conception (Psalm 139:13-16). Although the Bible does not mention abortion or aborted babies,
In 2 Samuel 12 we learn of David’s affair with Bathsheba, another man’s wife. David was informed by the prophet Nathan that the child produced by that union would die. David then began to fast and pray, asking the Lord to not carry out His judgment. When the child did die, David got up from praying and fasting and ate something.
When asked about this behaviour David uttered the words recorded in 2 Samuel 12:23, “Now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” David’s words reflect a clear understanding that the child could not come back to earth, but David would be with his child one day in heaven. This indicates not only David’s assurance of his own future in heaven (Psalm 23:6), but also the assurance that his child would share that future. From this account, we can conclude that infants who die are destined for heaven.


Now I am sure that answers the question on babies going to heaven

You know it's always fun watching Christians tying themselves up in knots trying to twist Biblical scripture for their own ends.

Anyway, as usual you're wrong. And here's why.

Even though I've already pointed this out, it bears repeating, there is no concept of a soul as Christians understand it today in the Old Testament, and no idea of an afterlife either.

This is mentioned in several places but is most explicit here:

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5.

and here:

"As a cloud vanishes and is gone, so one who goes down to the grave does not return."
Job 7:9

The other key point here is the idea of David being reunited with his son in 2 Samuel 12 has nothing to do with heaven. It simply reinforces the idea of the inevitability of death.

The idea used in 2 Samuel 12 is used quite a lot in the OT to describe people reuniting with their ancestors in death. Take Abraham for example:

"You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age."
Genesis 15:15

This is the same thing described in Samuel. However it is unlikely to be talking about heaven since Abraham's father Terah was an idolater as outlined in Joshua 24:2.

All of the old kings of Israel are also described as reuniting with their ancestors including, for example, Jeroboam:

"Jeroboam rested with his ancestors, the kings of Israel. And Zechariah his son succeeded him as king."
2 Kings 14:29

Again, Jeroboam, father of the Golden Calf cult in 1 Kings 12 would be an idolater and not someone who would go to heaven.

Like I said the last time there is no indication of a soul, heaven or any kind of afterlife in the OT.

robindch

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Like I said the last time there is no indication of a soul, heaven or any kind of afterlife in the OT.

Seconded. Ever tried mentioning this to religious people? You get all kinds of funny reactions -- disbelief, suspension-pending-investigation (which never happens), outright denial.

The one think you don't get of course is "Hey, that's really interesting. I wonder why that is?".

mbiking123

Cabaal wrote: »

You also have no evidence that anyone's soul goes to heaven or that heaven even exists, but sure don't let that stop you.

If I was to set up a lab, die for a few mins go to heaven etc then be revived and come back and tell you exactly what I saw would that be evidence for you ?

Or would you prefer if I brought a camcorder ?

Cabaal

mbiking123 wrote: »

If I was to set up a lab, die for a few mins go to heaven etc then be revived and come back and tell you exactly what I saw would that be evidence for you ?

Or would you prefer if I brought a camcorder ?

If I was to take mind bending drugs and tell you about my experiences would that be proof that my experiences really were real and actually existed? No, of course it wouldn't....they'd be creations of my mind, just like yours (if you had any).

The mind does all sorts when its in the processing of shutting down (lack of oxygen, synapses misfiring etc) or in sleep mode. After all, do you believe everything you see in your dreams is 100% real and actually exists?

Obliq

Jernal wrote: »

Easy there bliqy.

S/He was asked the question as to what it meant. Crucially though he has yet to the provide the meaning S/HE meant.

Ah yes, sorry about that. Only saw your warning now - I was actually going to say something about the syntax of those insults being slightly off, and so possibly even more strange to hear them coming from someone whose first language isn't English. It came across as me being deliberately nasty, but I was tired enough not speak goodly English myself Apololgies.

mbiking123

Obliq wrote: »

Ah yes, sorry about that. Only saw your warning now - I was actually going to say something about the syntax of those insults being slightly off, and so possibly even more strange to hear them coming from someone whose first language isn't English. It came across as me being deliberately nasty, but I was tired enough not speak goodly English myself Apololgies.

Ah give over, deliberately nasty what kind of junk is that ! nothing nasty ever intended. Take a look at some of the comments directed at me and come back to me then ! Honestly nothing untoward intended.

To change the subject

Abortion techniques have been described by many ancient societies who considered abortion a way of maintaining a stable population.

It was forbidden by the Sumerian Code (ca.2000, Abraham was from Sumeria); by the Code of Hammurabi (ca.2000); by the Assyrian Code, the Hittite Code; by Zoroaster (ca.590BC); by Buddha (ca.550BC),and by some schools of Hinduism. (Sources: “The Origins and History of Hebrew Law” and “The Sacred Books and Early Literature of the East”)

The Romans were less keen on contraception and abortion, mainly because they had low birth rates and needed citizens. Women who attempted abortions were suspected of trying to cover up illicit love affairs. But the paterfamilias (head of the family) was empowered to force abortions on his wives and slaves. While Roman law punished women for contraception and abortion, it allowed fathers to put to death live babies they did not want: girls, the disabled, and babies whose paternity they denied. Roman law punished women for contraception and abortion, it allowed fathers to put to death live babies they did not want: girls, the disabled, and babies whose paternity they denied. Customarily they killed them by exposure to the elements

Maybe people will come to realise why Christians protect the unborn and newly born, dont believe in both pre-birth or post-birth abortions unlike what people prefer to term the pro-choice group. Way to go Abraham

Delirium

what are "pre or post abortions"??

mbiking123

koth wrote: »

what are "pre or post abortions"??

sorry pre birth and post birth abortions - has been corrected

Peregrinus

robindch wrote: »

Seconded. Ever tried mentioning this to religious people? You get all kinds of funny reactions -- disbelief, suspension-pending-investigation (which never happens), outright denial.

The one think you don't get of course is "Hey, that's really interesting. I wonder why that is?".

You’re not talking to enough religious people, Robin. The standard reaction is [short version] is more like “Yes. What’s your point?”

The standard reaction [slightly longer version] is “You’re overstating the case a bit in claiming that ‘there is no indication of a soul, heaven or any kind of afterlife in the OT’. There is. Remember the OT works were written over a long period, and the development of religious insights and ideas can be traced through them. The notion of an afterlife, with reward and punishment, arrives fairly late in the piece, but it does arrive, and there are distinct references to it in the later works. By the time of Jesus, it’s a commonplace idea for Jews, though not one that’s universally accepted. What’s your point?”

robindch

mbiking123 wrote: »

post birth abortions

Wonders never cease!

robindch

Peregrinus wrote: »

You’re not talking to enough religious people, Robin. The standard reaction is [short version] is more like “Yes. What’s your point?”

Sounds like denial to me.

Delirium

mbiking123 wrote: »

sorry pre birth and post birth abortions

How can a woman have an abortion if she is no longer pregnant, i.e. just delivered the child/ post-birth?

mbiking123

robindch wrote: »

Wonders never cease!

I agree, this is just an example http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2013/07/26/people-sign-petition-to-abort-babies-after-birth-n1649777