Abortion Discussion

Obliq

mbiking123 wrote: »

Now I am sure that answers the question on babies going to heaven

You do realise you're in the Atheist and Agnostic forum, don't you? This IS the place where none of us believe in souls/spirits/any deity/afterlife. You are welcome to believe in midgety blue goblins that live in your house and vanish when humans are there if you want to, but I like having evidence that something is real before believing in it.

If that means I have far less problem with abortions happening than you do, well, that's your problem. You're still the one with no evidence to show for the human "spirit" or "soul" and are trying to persuade people that "every soul is sacred" in the face of plain, fairly incontrovertable evidence that it's not. Famine/Tsunamis/Disease, to name but a few evidential events for the non-existence of any spiritual meaning to human life.

mbiking123 wrote: »

If I was to set up a lab, die for a few mins go to heaven etc then be revived and come back and tell you exactly what I saw would that be evidence for you ?

Or would you prefer if I brought a camcorder ?

Yes, I would far prefer the camcorder, thanks. I am not willing to take the word of a self confessed religious person, or in fact any person who would equate a bright light/tunnel/voice saying "come to me", during a near death experience, with the existence of a god. That's not nearly good enough for me.

mbiking123

Obliq wrote: »

You do realise you're in the Atheist and Agnostic forum, don't you? This IS the place where none of us believe in souls/spirits/any deity/afterlife. You are welcome to believe in midgety blue goblins that live in your house and vanish when humans are there if you want to, but I like having evidence that something is real before believing in it.

If that means I have far less problem with abortions happening than you do, well, that's your problem. You're still the one with no evidence to show for the human "spirit" or "soul" and are trying to persuade people that "every soul is sacred" in the face of plain, fairly incontrovertable evidence that it's not. Famine/Tsunamis/Disease, to name but a few evidential events for the non-existence of any spiritual meaning to human life.



Yes, I would far prefer the camcorder, thanks. I am not willing to take the word of a self confessed religious person, or in fact any person who would equate a bright light/tunnel/voice saying "come to me", during a near death experience, with the existence of a god. That's not nearly good enough for me.

Maybe you would like to try for yourself ? in any case we all die, we will all find out

and also following on

When the Christians entered the Greco-Roman culture, human life was cheap and expendable. Infanticide was widespread and legal.

In contrast, the early Christians saw all human life as sacred. They condemned infanticide (they rescued and raised abandoned infants), abortion, all forms of suicide, and consistently boycotted the gladiator contests. Infanticide, was outlawed by Valentinian (a Christian emperor) in 374AD.


So Christians not wanting abortion goes back along way, Christians value human life

Peregrinus

robindch wrote: »

Sounds like denial to me.

"Yes" is a denial now?

Obliq

mbiking123 wrote: »

Ah give over, deliberately nasty what kind of junk is that ! nothing nasty ever intended. Take a look at some of the comments directed at me and come back to me then ! Honestly nothing untoward intended.

Y'know, I didn't have to apologise. When I saw Jernal's comment this morning and realised how my comment actually looked, I said to myself, hmmm, yeah...I could leave it like that. After all, mbiking is pretty insulting her/himself...but I never leave something to mean what I didn't mean, if you know what I mean. I'm not that kind of person.

But no matter, I have tried.

mbiking123

Obliq wrote: »

Y'know, I didn't have to apologise. When I saw Jernal's comment this morning and realised how my comment actually looked, I said to myself, hmmm, yeah...I could leave it like that. After all, mbiking is pretty insulting her/himself...but I never leave something to mean what I didn't mean, if you know what I mean. I'm not that kind of person.

But no matter, I have tried.

Thank you Obliq

gaynorvader

mbiking123 wrote: »

I am sure there is no temptation from a person who is near naked, spitting and spraying aerosol cans of paint. Yes those poor men, more examples of violence from the extreme lefty side

I think you're using the word "violence" in a disingenuous and emotive way here.

Oxford English Dictionary wrote:

violence
noun
[mass noun]
behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

I don't think spraying paint hurts, damages or kills anyone.

mbiking123 wrote: »

Maybe you would like to try for yourself ? in any case we all die, we will all find out

and also following on

When the Christians entered the Greco-Roman culture, human life was cheap and expendable. Infanticide was widespread and legal.

In contrast, the early Christians saw all human life as sacred. They condemned infanticide (they rescued and raised abandoned infants), abortion, all forms of suicide, and consistently boycotted the gladiator contests. Infanticide, was outlawed by Valentinian (a Christian emperor) in 374AD.


So Christians not wanting abortion goes back along way, Christians value human life

Infanticide is different from abortion. If you look back in this thread or Google "quickening" you'll see that the Catholic Church was a-ok with abortion in the past.

oldrnwisr

mbiking123 wrote: »

Maybe you would like to try for yourself ? in any case we all die, we will all find out

and also following on

When the Christians entered the Greco-Roman culture, human life was cheap and expendable. Infanticide was widespread and legal.

In contrast, the early Christians saw all human life as sacred. They condemned infanticide (they rescued and raised abandoned infants), abortion, all forms of suicide, and consistently boycotted the gladiator contests. Infanticide, was outlawed by Valentinian (a Christian emperor) in 374AD.


So Christians not wanting abortion goes back along way, Christians value human life

Could you please try to stop torturing history in the same way as you've done with religion?

The idea that Christians spread out into a world which considered life expendable while maintaining a consistent view against abortion is laughable.

Firstly, the idea that Greek culture didn't have negative views on abortion is obviously wrong. The Hippocratic oath, which was written before there even were Christians states:

"Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant: To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art — if they desire to learn it — without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but to no one else.
I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.
Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.
What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself holding such things shameful to be spoken about.
If I fulfill this path and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot."

Secondly, as I explained in a previous post, it was the fact that early pre-Christian writers decided to incorporate Greek teachings that led to the Christian invention of the soul. The Hebrew word nephesh was deliberately mistranslated in the Septuagint to bring Biblical eschatology in line with Hellenist tradition.

Oh, and another thing. It's not exactly as if Christians have consistently been against abortion. Early Christians were heavily influenced by Aristotle which taught the concept of ensoulment. No early Christian would have considered abortion before ensoulment to be homicide in the way that modern Christians do. Even as late as the 11th century Anselm of Canterbury declared: "no human intellect accepts the view that an infant has the rational soul from the moment of conception."
Catholic thought on the issue varied widely until the final condemnation in 1869. However there wasn't really a "Christian" opposition to abortion until the 1960s. This is largely due to the fact that the term Christian in the sense we use it today only began to develop in the reconstructionist era following the American Civil War.

I'm going to recommend two books for you mbiking which hopefully should sort out these terrible misconceptions you have:

When Children Became People: The Birth of Childhood in Early Christianity

Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism

mbiking123

gaynorvader wrote: »

I think you're using the word "violence" in a disingenuous and emotive way here.



I don't think spraying paint hurts, damages or kills anyone.



Infanticide is different from abortion. If you look back in this thread or Google "quickening" you'll see that the Catholic Church was a-ok with abortion in the past.

Wrong - Violence is "the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation

Even spitting is violence and punishable in a court of law

gaynorvader

mbiking123 wrote: »

Wrong - Violence is "the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation

Even spitting is violence and punishable in a court of law

Source?

Obliq

mbiking123 wrote: »

Thank you Obliq

Grand so.

mbiking123 wrote: »

Maybe you would like to try for yourself ? in any case we all die, we will all find out

No thanks, I have zero interest in finding out. Not yet anyway. You are the one who is required to provide proof of your extraordinary claims, not me!

When the Christians entered the Greco-Roman culture, human life was cheap and expendable. Infanticide was widespread and legal.

In contrast, the early Christians saw all human life as sacred. They condemned infanticide (they rescued and raised abandoned infants), abortion, all forms of suicide, and consistently boycotted the gladiator contests. Infanticide, was outlawed by Valentinian (a Christian emperor) in 374AD.

So Christians not wanting abortion goes back along way, Christians value human life

That is not proof of souls or spirits.

Stoic philosophy valued life and goodness since roughly 300BC, without any gods at all, although they did have very similar thoughts on good and evil as Christians. They recognised that morality comes from ourselves and they actually practiced wisdom, self-control and the virtue of reason.

I personally don't see human life as any more sacred than a rock. Or a chicken's life. I VALUE it more than other life, to be sure, because I am human and I love humans/feel a kinship with humans. But sacred? No.

mbiking123

oldrnwisr wrote: »

When Children Became People: The Birth of Childhood in Early Christianity

Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism

first link I had a look at reviews, abortion issue lead me to this

'Both texts regard abortion as murder and provide an ethical context within which abortion should be viewed. “Thou shalt not abort” becomes a sub-commandment of the commandment not to murder. It has a status almost on a par with the Decalogue itself. Use of the commandment form provides a succinct continuation of the Jewish condemnation of deliberate abortion. There is no formed/unformed distinction, no elaboration. Abortion is presented also as an offense against humanity, a defiance of the second great commandment — “Love thy neighbor” — which the Epistle of Barnabas has expanded to say “more than thyself.” Furthermore, abortion is depicted not only as a sin like sexual immorality, but as an evil no less severe and social in scope than oppression of the poor and needy and no less dishonorable than the use of poisons.'

http://amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2007/01/when_children_b.html


Second book is basically an atheist book so obvious what it will say, link is on the webpage


but thanks for the recommendations:rolleyes:

mbiking123

Obliq wrote: »

I personally don't see human life as any more sacred than a rock. Or a chicken's life. I VALUE it more than other life, to be sure, because I am human and I love humans/feel a kinship with humans. But sacred? No.

So why end an unborn's life, it is life and surely more important than a chicken

Obliq

mbiking123 wrote: »

So why end an unborn's life, it is life and surely more important than a chicken

Well, ain't that precisely what you're missing? The reasoning around a woman's decision to end an unborn life.

It is life, but it is no more important than a chicken's UNLESS SHE WANTS THE PREGNANCY. Da DAA! You've finally asked the right question, nice one

gaynorvader

mbiking123 wrote: »

first link I had a look at reviews, abortion issue lead me to this

'Both texts regard abortion as murder and provide an ethical context within which abortion should be viewed. “Thou shalt not abort” becomes a sub-commandment of the commandment not to murder. It has a status almost on a par with the Decalogue itself. Use of the commandment form provides a succinct continuation of the Jewish condemnation of deliberate abortion. There is no formed/unformed distinction, no elaboration. Abortion is presented also as an offense against humanity, a defiance of the second great commandment — “Love thy neighbor” — which the Epistle of Barnabas has expanded to say “more than thyself.” Furthermore, abortion is depicted not only as a sin like sexual immorality, but as an evil no less severe and social in scope than oppression of the poor and needy and no less dishonorable than the use of poisons.'

http://amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2007/01/when_children_b.html


Second book is basically an atheist book so obvious what it will say, link is on the webpage


but thanks for the recommendations:rolleyes:

Where did you get the italicised text from? Also do you have a source for your definition of violence, or did you just make it up?

mbiking123

gaynorvader wrote: »

Source?

best I can find to back up that spitting is assault http://www.justanswer.com/uk-law/3qv9m-charged-common-assault-spitting-someone.html

I know it is a popular one in Limerick, and I have heard a legal eagle stating it is classed as assault


And world health organisation for the other bit http://www.who.int/topics/violence/en/

mbiking123

Obliq wrote: »

Well, ain't that precisely what you're missing? The reasoning around a woman's decision to end an unborn life.

It is life, but it is no more important than a chicken's UNLESS SHE WANTS THE PREGNANCY. Da DAA! You've finally asked the right question, nice one

Well Da DAA:D that is where I don't agree, I believe it is more important as its a human life, but you rate it as the same

Obliq

mbiking123 wrote: »

Well Da DAA:D that is where I don't agree, I believe it is more important as its a human life, but you rate it as the same

Yes, this is exactly where we don't agree. If I was having an unwanted pregnancy, I would value the life inside me as less important than my own needs/desires, much as I value the life of the chicken as less than my desire to eat meat. This is selfish, but human. You cannot change the fact that there will always be women who have got pregnant at the wrong time, or by the wrong person, or to whom a pregnancy will always be wrong.

There are other places we don't agree as well, such as you being so convinced that your religious version of morality trumps my pragmatic version of morality enough to attempt to prevent me from taking a choice about abortion in my own country. I very much disagree with your convictions there. The amount of women who have been put into desperate circumstances by the fact that they have to travel overseas to abort a pregnancy is on your hands, and the likes of you.

mbiking123

Obliq wrote: »

The amount of women who have been put into desperate circumstances by the fact that they have to travel overseas to abort a pregnancy is on your hands, and the likes of you.

yes, and in the UK they travel to Spain for late abortions

I guess the laws no matter what they allow or don't allow just don't suit some people

The people of Ireland were asked a question, the people spoke no abortion

There choice to have an abortion has nothing to do with me, so please don't try pointing the finger at me and try to make me feel guilty. I am not the one ending a life

Obliq

mbiking123 wrote: »

yes, and in the UK they travel to Spain for late abortions

I guess the laws no matter what they allow or don't allow just don't suit some people

That is a cop-out. It does rather more damage than "just" not suiting some people.

The people of Ireland were asked a question, the people spoke no abortion

We have not been properly asked about abortion in Ireland since 1983. There has been no way to allow the question of abortion in Ireland since the 8th amendment was railroaded through legislation by Catholic lobby groups and voted for by a people who were totally unquestioning about the moral authority of the RCC at the time. Which is what it comes down to essentially. ONE religion imposing it's moral values on everyone.

There choice to have an abortion has nothing to do with me, so please don't try pointing the finger at me and try to make me feel guilty. I am not the one ending a life

Actually, their LACK of choice in this country has everything to do with the likes of you, and I'm not MAKING you feel guilty. If you are feeling guilty, you are having a normal human response to the part you have played in someone's hardship.

As I have pointed out before, you end a life every time you decide to eat meat. Killing a cow is morally no worse or better than killing an embryo. The value that is put on that life is a human construct.

gaynorvader

mbiking123 wrote: »

{...}


And world health organisation for the other bit http://www.who.int/topics/violence/en/

I'd be more inclined to trust the dictionary definition than any organisation's definition. However, even taking the WHO's definition I still don't think that the act of spraying paint "resulted in or had a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation".

28064212

mbiking123 wrote: »

The people of Ireland were asked a question, the people spoke no abortion

Since the introduction of the constitutional ban on abortion, there have been 4 referendums on the subject in Ireland. The pro-life side has lost all of them

mbiking123

Obliq wrote: »

As I have pointed out before, you end a life every time you decide to eat meat. Killing a cow is morally no worse or better than killing an embryo. The value that is put on that life is a human construct.

I don't agree !

In that case, why is murder wrong etc etc

Christians put a value on human life - all human life above that of animals

I believe in animal conservation etc etc, but some rare tiger or rhino is not as important as an unborn child (my opinion)

mbiking123

28064212 wrote: »

Since the introduction of the constitutional ban on abortion, there have been 4 referendums on the subject in Ireland. The pro-life side has lost all of them

well Dana campaigned for a no vote, so the pro life lobby would not agree

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dana-will-not-support-government-in-abortion-referendum-40426.html

28064212

mbiking123 wrote: »

well Dana campaigned for a no vote, so the pro life lobby would not agree

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dana-will-not-support-government-in-abortion-referendum-40426.html

You realise that was news because she was breaking with the majority of the pro-life lobby right? Lets say I give you that one though. Since the introduction of the constitutional ban on abortion, there have been 4 referendums on the subject in Ireland. The pro-life side has lost 3 of them, and did not have a coherent position on the 4th.

iwantmydinner

mbiking123 wrote: »

... but some rare tiger or rhino is not as important as an unborn child (my opinion)

Which is fair enough, but why can't you see that other will have differing opinions? And let them make their decisions based on their opinions? This is what I really don't understand.

Obliq

mbiking123 wrote: »

I don't agree !

In that case, why is murder wrong etc etc

Christians put a value on human life - all human life above that of animals

I believe in animal conservation etc etc, but some rare tiger or rhino is not as important as an unborn child (my opinion)

Born people, wanted unborn people, these are of value because we give them value. We attribute huge value to their experiences and their potential and have to stop people killing other people (as that causes massive trouble) just willy-nilly, but apparently murder in war (for a "good" cause, usually religious :rolleyes: and often Christian) is just fine and sometimes necessary. It all comes down to the morals that WE make, not any god....US.

Abortion has been in and out of favour with religions and states all down through the ages, as it is a sometimes necessary form of killing human life that has always and (probably) will always be with us. It seems that women either historically haven't had a say, or have just always taken the law into their own hands, and that will continue despite whatever religious hardline (but also morally questionable) views are in fashion.

old hippy

mbiking123 wrote: »

I have no evidence that aborted babies soul go to heaven, but that is my belief

I have no evidence that Christ sucks my cock in hell, but that is my belief.

Cabaal

mbiking123 wrote: »

Maybe you would like to try for yourself ? in any case we all die, we will all find out

Yeah, I tell you Thor is going to be mighty upset you didn't believe in him

So Christians not wanting abortion goes back along way, Christians value human life

Value life,
You are having a laugh surely?

Your own holy book which is the word of your god (although you choose to be selective about what is his words or not in reality) says,

- Gays should be put to death
- Cursing your father or mother (punishable by death)
- Working on Sundays, you should be put to death
- Blasphemy (punishable by stoning to death)

Outside of the bible, what they actually did
- We think you're a witch, you should be put to death
- You said something against our god, you should be put to death (oh look, they followed the bible on that one)
- Killed people for being gay

Yep, value human life all the way! Go Team christian!!
:rolleyes:

mbiking123

iwantmydinner wrote: »

Which is fair enough, but why can't you see that other will have differing opinions? And let them make their decisions based on their opinions? This is what I really don't understand.

So someone believes child rape is right, so let them do what they want

No No it don't work that way

There are laws, for very good reasons

In Ireland we value the life of the unborn, hence no abortions

Cabaal

mbiking123 wrote: »

In Ireland we value the life of the unborn, hence no abortions

Pro-life side wouldn't agree with you there,
They see along with other groups the current legislation as allowing abortions so this undermines your statement.

Also please don't use the word we, its insulting to people that can think for themselves and don't follow religion based views