Abortion Discussion

Bannasidhe

JimiTime wrote: »

Have I misrepresented something? Haven't I just repeated what the poster has already said she did while complaining that the Irish State made her go abroad to do it, just without using the flowery language? Using the language I did, gives an insight into why the state don't treat this as the equivalent of having a kidney stone removed, and should also serve to ease her anger as to why it shouldn't be expected that other people should be complicit in ending her unborns life with her.

Not sure if it matters to you, or you'd let it get in the way of having a nice thanks whoring jibe but taking issue with something and believing it is very wrong, does not equate to thinking oneself as perfect.

One of your imperfections appears to be the use of judgemental language designed to 'shame' - you essentially accused another poster of murder where the State finds no crime. You, however, seem to believe your beliefs allow you to channel Judge Dredd.

Judge not let ye be judged Jimi.

iwantmydinner

JimiTime wrote: »

Are you taking issue with the fact that I believe that a woman has a responsibility for their growing child once they have conceived?

I'm taking issue with your belief that every woman must automatically be ready for pregnancy and motherhood, no matter the circumstances. Long may your world be as straightforward and comfortable .

lazygal

JimiTime wrote: »

Are you taking issue with the fact that I believe that a woman has a responsibility for their growing child once they have conceived?

Has a man any such responsibility? What about children who become pregnant, are they to be expected to have such responsibility?

JimiTime

Bannasidhe wrote: »

One of your imperfections appears to be the use of judgemental language designed to 'shame' - you essentially accused another poster of murder where the State finds no crime. You, however, seem to believe your beliefs allow you to channel Judge Dredd.

There goes your wild imagination again. Don't suppose you'd let a thing such as truth get in the way of a good oul rant
There are no accusations or murder, just using language that humanises rather than dehumanises what has happened.

Judge not let ye be judged Jimi.

Would you like to discuss this most misused scripture? Or would you prefer to stay ignorant and continue to use it ignorantly?

JimiTime

iwantmydinner wrote: »

I'm taking issue with your belief that every woman must automatically be ready for pregnancy and motherhood, no matter the circumstances. Long may your world be as straightforward and comfortable .

Again, is your issue that I believe that a woman who conceives, has a responsibility for her growing child?

Bannasidhe

JimiTime wrote: »

There goes your wild imagination again. Don't suppose you'd let a thing such as truth get in the way of a good oul rant
There are no accusations or murder, just using language that humanises rather than dehumanises what has happened.


Would you like to discuss this most misused scripture? Or would you prefer to stay ignorant and continue to use it ignorantly?

Stop playing dumb jimi - you know exactly what you are doing.


Why on Earth would I want to discuss some Ancient Middle Eastern Fairy tales with you?

Do you deny you are judging?

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

Again, is your issue that I believe that a woman who conceives, has a responsibility for her growing child?

And what if she decides that an abortion is the responsible course of action?

Morag

JimiTime wrote: »

the abortion industry

This is just hilarious, the vast majority of clinics which provide abortions are run by charitable trusts.

JimiTime wrote: »

Are you taking issue with the fact that I believe that a woman has a responsibility for their growing child once they have conceived?

So what about the 1/3 of embryos which are conceived which pass from a woman's body? are we to have a funeral for every sticky smear on a woman's underwear when that happens?

I did take responsiblity when an embryo implanted in side me, I knew I was not ready or able to give a child the stable home it needed or to be able to parent the child so instead of causing upset and heart ache for my extended family and myself I did the responsible thing and had an abortion.

Pherekydes

JimiTime wrote: »

There are no accusations or murder, just using language that humanises rather than dehumanises what has happened.

Uh?

JimiTime wrote: »

I thought those who are for being allowed the choice to kill the developing life...

JimiTime wrote: »

...but people then move the discussion as to when the value of a human life becomes worthy of protecting it from being deliberately snuffed out.

JimiTime wrote: »

Because it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human life.

MrPudding

JimiTime wrote: »

There goes your wild imagination again. Don't suppose you'd let a thing such as truth get in the way of a good oul rant
There are no accusations or murder, just using language that humanises rather than dehumanises what has happened.

Perhaps there have been no accusations of murder in this thread, by you, just yet, but I think we all know what your feelings are from previous threads...

JimiTime wrote: »

I don't think alot of Christians are anti capital punishment for the same reason they are anti abortion.

I am not against the IDEA of Capital punishment, but would be very dubious of it in practice. So I'll deal with the IDEA.

With capital punishment, it is the exacting of a punishment on a guilty person. Not the murder of an innocent party. Its not a contradiction to say that I believe in the right to able to walk on O'Connell Street, yet to also hold the view that incarcerated criminals should not be allowed that freedom. No, rather that freedom is forfeit to them due to their guilt as criminals. Similarly, I believe a murderers life is forfeit, but I believe also in mercy. IMO, where we don't have capital punishment, the fact that a murderer is allowed to live should be a mercy and NOT a right.

For abortion, you become the murderer, not the executioner of a criminal.

Thats my position currently, and its open to reasonable debate.

I have helpfully highlighted the relevent section. This was one post that I happened to remember off the top of my head, as you were responding to me, but I seem to recall other posts where you have, either directly or indirectly, called abortion murder.

I appreciate that your intention is to shame these filthy murdering whores into regretting what they have done, but it can be offensive, nonetheless.

MrP

iwantmydinner

JimiTime wrote: »

Again, is your issue that I believe that a woman who conceives, has a responsibility for her growing child?

I've literally just explained what I've taken issue with. Couldn't have been clearer.

JimiTime

lazygal wrote: »

Has a man any such responsibility?

To a certain degree of course they do. However, such is the circumstance of gender difference (though I hear gender is only a social construct these days), it is the female of the species that carries and incubates humanities children.

What about children who become pregnant, are they to be expected to have such responsibility?

The basic responsibility for anyone who is pregnant is not to kill their growing child. If motherhood is too great a burden to them, then adoption or state care are some options. We as a society should be looking at minimising such incidents rather than offering abortion as a solution.

Morag

Adoption solves the problem of an unwanted child, not an unwanted pregnancy the impact it has.

MrPudding

JimiTime wrote: »

The basic responsibility for anyone who is pregnant is not to kill their growing child. If motherhood is too great a burden to them, then adoption or state care are some options. We as a society should be looking at minimising such incidents rather than offering abortion as a solution.

On the off chance that you genuinely missed the point of lazygal's question, I beleive she meant where the pregnancy was too much of a burden, you know, cos the girl is a child, maybe a bit small, might die as a result of the prenancy...

MrP

JimiTime

Morag wrote: »

So what about the 1/3 of embryos which are conceived which pass from a woman's body? are we to have a funeral for every sticky smear on a woman's underwear when that happens?

If a woman wants to have a funeral then thats her prerogative, and if she doesn't, then thats her prerogative too. One womans 'sticky smear' is another ones lost child. None of them have set out to purposely kill, so what they decide to do with the miscarried embryo is up to them, and is neither here nor there in the abortion debate.

I did take responsiblity when an embryo implanted in side me

Not the responsibility I referred to. I.E. Responsible to the best of your power, to the unique life inside you.

, I knew I was not ready or able to give a child the stable home it needed or to be able to parent the child so instead of causing upset and heart ache for my extended family and myself I did the responsible thing and had an abortion.

I'm not going to beat around the bush, and I hope you will appreciate that.
I certainly do not see the above scenario in the positive light that you do (Surprise surprise). I see a unique life (Think about that. A life that will never be recreated. You can have another 6 kids, but that one gone.) who has been killed for the sake of people feeling upset. If there was a genuine feeling that a good home could not be provided, adoption etc is an option. Yet to save oneself, and those involved, a feeling of sadness, that unique life is sacrificed. How can that be seen as something positive? The fact is, that this life did not have to be killed, but a decision was taken that it would just be easier if its life was ended. Do you really stand over that as something right?

I was cleaning out my email inbox recently and came across an image of my daughter from my wifes first scan. She was 12 weeks. Looking at my daughter now (2 years old now), and at 12 weeks, you cannot help but think about the fact that this is the very same being. It always makes me reflect on this topic, and its probably why I opened up boards for the first time in a while to look at this thread.

lazygal

JimiTime wrote: »

To a certain degree of course they do. However, such is the circumstance of gender difference (though I hear gender is only a social construct these days), it is the female of the species that carries and incubates humanities children.



The basic responsibility for anyone who is pregnant is not to kill their growing child. If motherhood is too great a burden to them, then adoption or state care are some options. We as a society should be looking at minimising such incidents rather than offering abortion as a solution.

So a pregnant child has a responsibility to another child? What responsibility does a man have to a woman who's pregnant?

lazygal

Also Jimi should child benefit be paid from the date of conception? Even if a woman miscarries?

bumper234

JimiTime wrote: »

To a certain degree of course they do. However, such is the circumstance of gender difference (though I hear gender is only a social construct these days), it is the female of the species that carries and incubates humanities children.



The basic responsibility for anyone who is pregnant is not to kill their growing child. If motherhood is too great a burden to them, then adoption or state care are some options. We as a society should be looking at minimising such incidents rather than offering abortion as a solution.

What about a rape victim? Do you think that a woman who has been raped and finds herself pregnant from this attack should carry the child to term?

iwantmydinner

JimiTime wrote: »

I was cleaning out my email inbox recently and came across an image of my daughter from my wifes first scan. She was 12 weeks. Looking at my daughter now (2 years old now), and at 12 weeks, you cannot help but think about the fact that this is the very same being. It always makes me reflect on this topic, and its probably why I opened up boards for the first time in a while to look at this thread.

Why can't you count yourself lucky, and acknowledge that others, in different circumstances, may have difficult decisions to make?

JimiTime

MrPudding wrote: »

Perhaps there have been no accusations of murder in this thread,

There is no 'perhaps' about it. There have been none.

but I think we all know what your feelings are from previous threads...

People are free to read the context of that thread if they wish.

eviltwin

iwantmydinner wrote: »

Why can't you count yourself lucky, and acknowledge that others, in different circumstances, may have difficult decisions to make?

Sure what does he care about other people and the hardships they may face, it's not his problem, he doesn't have to face them or lose sleep over them.


Jimi how would you feel if your daughter had an unwanted pregnancy and decided she wanted an abortion? Would you support her?

JimiTime

iwantmydinner wrote: »

Why can't you count yourself lucky, and acknowledge that others, in different circumstances, may have difficult decisions to make?

I count myself as undeservedly blessed on a regular basis. Also, you seem to be under the absolutely mistaken impression, that because I view abortion as wrong and speak in no uncertain terms about it, that I do not empathise with anyone who wishes to have one.

Delirium

It's the tiniest sliver of empathy possible if you refer to women who have abortions as killers.

JimiTime

eviltwin wrote: »

Sure what does he care about other people and the hardships they may face, it's not his problem, he doesn't have to face them or lose sleep over them.

I understand the frustrations that lead to such personal attacks and unsubstantiated comments, but all I can say is that you are completely wrong. FWIW.

Jimi how would you feel if your daughter had an unwanted pregnancy and decided she wanted an abortion? Would you support her?

From my earlier post:

I would sincerely empathise with such a scenario, and I can't say that the idea would not cross even my strong anti abortion mind if it was my daughter that was the victim of such a heinous crime and all the emotional turmoil that goes with it.

I pray she is NEVER faced with such a scenario. Whatever would happen though, it would not mean that abortion is right.

JimiTime

SW wrote: »

It's the tiniest sliver of empathy possible if you refer to women who have abortions as killers.

Funnily enough, I haven't done that neither. Just because I don't buy into the dehuminisation of the abortion process by using all the terms that make it sound like a standard medical procedure, does not mean I want to apply lables to those who have them. If its such an acceptable thing, then those who are for it should be able to deal with the realities of what it is.

Morag

I get you think it is unacceptable, fair enough but your moral and religious view points are not the same as mine
or the other 150,000 women who have traveled to the UK for an abortion.

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

Funnily enough, I haven't done that neither.

so you don't think having an abortion is killing a child?

JimiTime

SW wrote: »

so you don't think having an abortion is killing a child?

What do you believe it is?

JimiTime

Morag wrote: »

I get you think it is unacceptable, fair enough but your moral and religious view points are not the same as mine
or the other 150,000 women who have traveled to the UK for an abortion.

You understand though, that its not a victimless event? Its not something that can simply be chalked up as a different opinion. Can you empathise with that?

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

What do you believe it is?

Don't be coy, Jimi, you said women who have abortions are killing a child. That suggests to me that you believe the women to be killers. If you don't view them as such then how can you say they are killing a child?