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Abortion Discussion

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    #3782
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    SW wrote: »
    Don't be coy, Jimi, you said women who have abortions are killing a child. That suggests to me that you believe the women to be killers. If you don't view them as such then how can you say they are killing a child?

    What do you believe it is?


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    #3783
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Again do you think I and all those women are thick and don't know that it means 150,000 babies didn't get born?
    The whole point of abortion is so that we don't go on to give birth to a baby.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/indy_docs/

    I am looking forward to this documentary, which is ground breaking and actually documents one young Irish woman traveling to the UK and records her experiences.

    But it's not the first documentary, there was one made in 1993 by RTE in which 3 women shared thier stories,
    it was considered too controversial to screen. http://vimeo.com/86333591

    It will get it's first screening on the 1st of March by the abortion rights campaign, with a discussion panel afterwards. http://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2014/02/14/too-loud-a-silence-abortion-and-censorship-in-irish-media/


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    #3784
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,784 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    JimiTime wrote: »
    What do you believe it is?
    Not going to answer my question?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #3785
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Morag wrote: »
    Again do you think I and all those women are thick and don't know that it means 150,000 babies didn't get born?
    The whole point of abortion is so that we don't go on to give birth to a baby.

    Is that directed at me?


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    #3786
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    SW wrote: »
    Not going to answer my question?

    Was my description inaccurate?


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    #3787
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    I really, really wish that all those who are anti-abortion in all circumstances could have the ability to have an unwanted pregnancy. You never forget your first pregnancy scare, the panic is overwhelming, the feeling of not being in control of what's happening to you. It's not like any other unexpected event, no other accident or mistake is so lifechanging. And it really is lifechanging, it can be the difference between college and a career or a life of low wage jobs and social welfare.

    It's very easy to say 'it's never ok' when you'll never have to go through it personally.


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    #3788
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    JimiTime wrote: »
    There is no 'perhaps' about it. There have been none.




    People are free to read the context of that thread if they wish.
    Perhaps you could help me with the context. You said, "for abortion you become the murderer." That seems fairly clear. I am not sure how context can make that phrase not mean you are calling women who have abortions murders.

    MrP


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    #3789
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,784 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Was my description inaccurate?
    Your avoidance of my question suggests that you agree with my suggestion that you view women who have abortions as killers.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #3790
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    SW wrote: »
    Your avoidance of my question suggests that you agree with my suggestion that you view women who have abortions as killers.

    Of course he does. He talk about going of to kill you unborn child. One who kills is a killer. Not sure where the confusion comes from... Maybe we are not I. The correct context. Context is very important to Jimi.

    MrP


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    #3791
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Jimi if you really do believe the life of the unborn is on a par with the life of the born and that abortion is the murder or killing of a person then surely it will follow that you believe women who have abortions are guilty of murder and therefore should be treated the same as those who kill the living? Do you believe abortion should be a crime? Should women be jailed for abortions?


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    #3792
    gaynorvader
    Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭gaynorvader


    JimiTime wrote: »
    {...}

    Is a person who is brain dead still human life in your view? Is it murder to turn off their life support?


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    #3793
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Should women be jailed for abortions?

    With the new protection of life in pregnancy bill, women who have abortions here in Ireland can face up to 14 years, which is actually harsher then the sentence for murder.


    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_trial/types_of_sentences.html
    Mandatory sentences

    A mandatory sentence is one which must be imposed regardless of any other circumstances. In Ireland, murder carries a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment. A life sentence lasts for life. As is the case in a number of countries, however, not all of the life sentence in Ireland is generally served in prison custody. The granting of temporary or early release of life sentenced prisoners is a feature of prison systems internationally and in Ireland.

    The Minister for Justice and Equality, in deciding on the release from prison of a life sentenced prisoner, always considers the advice and recommendations of the Parole Board of Ireland. At present, the Board initially reviews prisoners who have been sentenced to life imprisonment after they have served 7 years.

    ............

    The length of time spent in custody by offenders serving life sentences can vary substantially. Of those prisoners serving life sentences who have been released, the average sentence served in prison is approximately 12 years


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    #3794
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    JimiTime wrote: »
    What do you believe it is?


    Do you believe that women who have an abortion are "killers" Jimi? Be as good as to answer.


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    #3795
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Morag wrote: »
    With the new protection of life in pregnancy bill, women who have abortions here in Ireland can face up to 14 years, which is actually harsher then the sentence for murder. . .
    Well, not that I want to defend the legislation, but the parole arrangements that you describe for life sentences apply equally to fixed term sentences. Even if a woman were to get the maximum sentence, she could expect to serve considerably less than twelve years.


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    #3796
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Well, not that I want to defend the legislation, but the parole arrangements that you describe for life sentences apply equally to fixed term sentences. Even if a woman were to get the maximum sentence, she could expect to serve considerably less than twelve years.

    That maybe but the fact it has a higher sentence speaks to what the irish state things of women who choose abortion and the same sentence applies to medical professionals who may assist her.


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    #3797
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Morag wrote: »
    That maybe but the fact it has a higher sentence speaks to what the irish state things of women who choose abortion and the same sentence applies to medical professionals who may assist her.
    It's not a higher sentence, though. A fixed term subject to a maximum of 14 years is a lower sentence than a mandatory life term, both in terms of the maximum time that an offender might serve and in terms of what term offenders are likely actually to serve.

    For comparison, the sentence of a fine or imprisonment for up to 14 years is the same sentence as for burglary, money laundering, carrying a firearm with criminal intent, making demands with menaces or handling stolen goods.

    By contrast, life imprisonment applies to murder, treason (it's mandatory for both of these), manslaughter, assault causing serious harm, possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life, aggravated robbery, possession of controlled drugs with intent to supply and certain cases of rape.


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    #3798
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    SW wrote: »
    Your avoidance of my question suggests that you agree with my suggestion that you view women who have abortions as killers.

    Again, is the description that to abort a baby is to kill a human being an inaccurate description? Or is it inaccurate to call an unborn baby an unborn baby? And what is it that abortion does to that unborn baby?

    You seem to have a great desire to call these people killers, not I. I've just described the process without using the easier on conscience language. Its not inaccurate though, and if by extention you believe that the growing human being killed means that those who indulge in such a practice should be called killers, then thats up to you. I do not see such labels as helpful.


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    #3799
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    kylith wrote: »
    I really, really wish that all those who are anti-abortion in all circumstances could have the ability to have an unwanted pregnancy. You never forget your first pregnancy scare, the panic is overwhelming, the feeling of not being in control of what's happening to you. It's not like any other unexpected event, no other accident or mistake is so lifechanging. And it really is lifechanging, it can be the difference between college and a career or a life of low wage jobs and social welfare.

    It's very easy to say 'it's never ok' when you'll never have to go through it personally.

    It is very easy to say its not ok whether you go through it or not. That is not to say that we have no understanding as to why people decide to do it though. Just like I said earlier, I'm sure, God forbid, such a circumstance was to arise such as rape in terms of my own household, I cannot say it would not cross my mind. However even if the decision was taken to abort the child, it would still not make the slightest difference as to the wrongness of killing that growing human.


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    #3800
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,784 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Again, is the description that to abort a baby is to kill a human being an inaccurate description? Or is it inaccurate to call an unborn baby an unborn baby? And what is it that abortion does to that unborn baby?

    You seem to have a great desire to call these people killers, not I. I've just described the process without using the easier on conscience language. Its not inaccurate though, and if by extention you believe that the growing human being killed means that those who indulge in such a practice should be called killers, then thats up to you. I do not see such labels as helpful.

    No, I don't see women who have abortions as killers. I do however see you implying such. Or do you want to explain how someone that engages in killing isn't a killer?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #3801
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    JimiTime wrote: »
    It is very easy to say its not ok whether you go through it or not. That is not to say that we have no understanding as to why people decide to do it though. Just like I said earlier, I'm sure, God forbid, such a circumstance was to arise such as rape in terms of my own household, I cannot say it would not cross my mind. However even if the decision was taken to abort the child, it would still not make the slightest difference as to the wrongness of killing that growing human.

    It's a clump of cells, not a human.


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    #3802
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    old hippy wrote: »
    It's a clump of cells, not a human.
    False dichotomy; all humans are clumps of cells.


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    #3803
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    False dichotomy; all humans are clumps of cells.

    Ah but this particular clump I refer to is not sentient.


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    #3804
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,932 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Jimi hasn't addressed the prison sentences for "illegally" obtaining an abortion, I see. :rolleyes:


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    #3805
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    old hippy wrote: »
    Ah but this particular clump I refer to is not sentient.
    You need to explain why sentience is a necessary condition for humanity, so. Scientists with expertise in the field don't generally take this view and, while I'm open to the possibility that they may be wrong, you can't expect me to accept that they are simply on your unsupported assertion that it is so.


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    #3806
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    You need to explain why sentience is a necessary condition for humanity, so. Scientists with expertise in the field don't generally take this view and, while I'm open to the possibility that they may be wrong, you can't expect me to accept that they are simply on your unsupported assertion that it is so.

    When people talk of growing human beings and murder, I tend to the view that you cannot ascribe such attributes to a clump of cells. It's simplistic, sure but that's the way I see and thus have no problems at all with abortion.


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    #3807
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    SW wrote: »
    No, I don't see women who have abortions as killers. I do however see you implying such. Or do you want to explain how someone that engages in killing isn't a killer?

    So why do you keep on insisting that they are then? You keep avoiding the question as to whether my description of what abortion does is inaccurate, which leads me to believe that you accept that its not. You then insist that if the process kills a human being, the person who does the killing must be labeled a killer. I disagree that we should use such a label as I've repeated. It seems you do to, but at the same time, you are insisting that they must be called killers if they kill. You need to make up your mind tbh.


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    #3808
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Jimi hasn't addressed the prison sentences for "illegally" obtaining an abortion, I see. :rolleyes:

    Maybe I missed the question? I assume it was a question about what I think should be done to would be mothers who have illegal abortions or somesuch?

    My answer is that it would depend on the case. I don't want to see vulnerable women being incarcerated, but rather I want to see them supported as much as possible. I would have no issue with the incarceration of a person who offers themselves as an illegal abortionist though.

    So yeah, :rolleyes: off...........:)
    I remember so many of you guys tastelessly making such accusations to Philologos when he used to grant you guys some of his time. Not stopping to ask, 'maybe he didn't see the question'.
    I have so many people on ignore there is every chance I miss a heck of a lot.


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    #3809
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I have so many people on ignore there is every chance I miss a heck of a lot.
    On the whole, discussions work better when you don't ignore people.


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    #3810
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    robindch wrote: »
    On the whole, discussions work better when you don't ignore people.
    Meh, ignoring evidence, ignoring people, what's the difference...?

    MrP


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    #3811
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Maybe I missed the question? I assume it was a question about what I think should be done to would be mothers who have illegal abortions or somesuch?

    My answer is that it would depend on the case. I don't want to see vulnerable women being incarcerated, but rather I want to see them supported as much as possible. I would have no issue with the incarceration of a person who offers themselves as an illegal abortionist though.
    Whatever about you having people on ignore - I imagine we haven't engaged enough for you to ignore me. I have some questions (that have surely been asked of you before) -
    How do you condone the state's expense in bringing approx 4,000 women per year to court in Ireland (assuming that everyone who has an abortion is caught and acknowledging that it's a crime in this country)?. So would you support 4,000 + women going to jail every year, or do you see it as viable that 4,000+ cases are heard individually (as you say, depending on the case)?. Don't you think it sad that there is such a need for abortion services in Ireland? I do. But how interesting you see them all as criminals. Is the state right in seeing women who have abortions as criminals?


This discussion has been closed.
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