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Abortion Discussion

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    #392
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,807 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    lazygal wrote: »
    Don't get me started on Fidelma Healy Eames and her contention that women she met who gave birth to babies with fatal abnormalities were 'happier' than those who chose termination. She's possibility one of the most obnoxious voices in the debate on this in the Seanad.

    Of course they were happier, they didn't have the State take away from them the choice they wanted to make. They weren't the ones forced to leave this country in great distress to obtain treatment they should have been able to get here.

    By definition, people who want change are unhappy about how things are.

    Duhh. :rolleyes:

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #393
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,551 ✭✭✭swampgas


    The Black Oil wrote: »
    Hearing some of Jim Walsh's comments is depressing. I wish certain conservatives who throw around terms like 'totalitarian state' would travel a bit more and cop on.

    I just looked this guy up (his web page is here) and this guy is the Seanad Spokesman on Foreign Affairs and Trade. What an image he must be projecting to the outside world.

    His web page also describes his disappointment that the government refused to offer an official invite to Pope Benedict, so I guess he is a Catholic first and a senator second.


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    #394
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,661 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Zombrex wrote: »
    If she was I don't think there would be much point in this challenge. By the sounds of it this woman either has a very controlling family or a very controlling boyfriend. Which ever the case I feel sorry for her.

    The case has been withdrawn by the B/F as the couple seem to have settled their differences, with the woman cancelling the abortion trip. Both are in their early 20's. Two pro-life groups (SPUC and Precious Life, an NI group) pay the case legal fees, and agree to fund other that might arise. It seem's that the couple have moved to NI.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pro-life-groups-pay-legal-bill-of-couple-who-decide-against-abortion-29433061.html


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    #395
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    aloyisious wrote: »
    The case has been withdrawn by the B/F as the couple seem to have settled their differences, with the woman cancelling the abortion trip. Both are in their early 20's. Two pro-life groups (SPUC and Precious Life, an NI group) pay the case legal fees, and agree to fund other that might arise. It seem's that the couple have moved to NI.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pro-life-groups-pay-legal-bill-of-couple-who-decide-against-abortion-29433061.html

    Holy mother and jesus the commments in that article are awful. How hard is it to understand that people are most definitely against the coercion of abortion on someone. Equally, they are also against the coercion of carrying a pregnancy to term on someone. But I guess, it's easier to think people just women to abort all the time!


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    #396
    maguic24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭maguic24


    Jernal wrote: »
    Holy mother and jesus the commments in that article are awful. How hard is it to understand that people are most definitely against the coercion of abortion on someone. Equally, they are also against the coercion of carrying a pregnancy to term on someone. But I guess, it's easier to think people just women to abort all the time!

    The comments on the independent in general, annoy me to no end. The moderators are crap and biased on certain subjects and half the time it's people abusing one another.

    You try and make a logical argument and get some ridiculous response. I'm sick of reading comments like 'you're a twat', 'no you're a twat'..'God' 'Proaborts' 'Murderers' 'Conscience'....ugh. If you look at the comments especially in relation to the abortion debates, you'll notice one user attacking the other...>.<


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    #397
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,928 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    As if I needed one more reason to ignore Independent.ie...


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    #398
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,661 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Maybe I was reading too much into the mention that the couple had moved to NI, but I assume that neither of them were housed there when the case was brought to the HC here. That would mean that some kind person had arranged accommodation for the couple at short notice, in another jurisdiction, coincidentally one that Edwin Poots is trying to ensure stay's adverse to the notion of abortion when the South look's to be swaying in the opposite direction.


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    #399
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,807 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/health/views/03essa.html?_r=2&
    Repairing the Damage, Before Roe

    I am a retired gynecologist, in my mid-80s. My early formal training in my specialty was spent in New York City, from 1948 to 1953, in two of the city’s large municipal hospitals.

    There I saw and treated almost every complication of illegal abortion that one could conjure, done either by the patient herself or by an abortionist — often unknowing, unskilled and probably uncaring. Yet the patient never told us who did the work, or where and under what conditions it was performed. She was in dire need of our help to complete the process or, as frequently was the case, to correct what damage might have been done.

    ...

    Almost any implement you can imagine had been and was used to start an abortion - darning needles, crochet hooks, cut-glass salt shakers, soda bottles, sometimes intact, sometimes with the top broken off.

    ...

    It is important to remember that Roe v. Wade did not mean that abortions could be performed. They have always been done, dating from ancient Greek days.

    What Roe said was that ending a pregnancy could be carried out by medical personnel, in a medically accepted setting, thus conferring on women, finally, the full rights of first-class citizens — and freeing their doctors to treat them as such.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #400
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    The Black Oil wrote: »
    Hearing some of Jim Walsh's comments is depressing. I wish certain conservatives who throw around terms like 'totalitarian state' would travel a bit more and cop on.

    People like Jim Walsh believe in a very "special" form of democray, "one man, one vote". They believe they are the man and they are the only person with the vote.

    Unfortunately they don't learn from history, to discover the results of such a system.


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    #401
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    And I told Allah to tell God to. - His Noodly Appendage

    And I seriously fcuked up with them two bastúns- His Ruselly and Celestial Teapotness


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    #402
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CyBvzKjje-g

    im in shock.

    planned parenthood fighting for the right to murder a child and i dont mean an abortion i mean an actual live born child.


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    #403
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CyBvzKjje-g

    im in shock.

    Someone want to give me the gist? Im sure its a well thought out video and makes a point we can understand. Or it could be some youth defence crap.


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    #404
    UDP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭UDP


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CyBvzKjje-g

    im in shock.

    planned parenthood fighting for the right to murder a child and i dont mean an abortion i mean an actual live born child.
    You must have not watched the video at all.

    The woman is asked what happens when a baby comes out due to a botched abortion. The woman says she doesn't know as she is not a doctor. This is asked a number of times to which she responds she doesn't know but the decision what to do next would be with the woman, family and physician.

    Having not read further into this as I know it will be a waste of my time as it looks like bs from the anti-abortion people it looks to me that the people on the committee want to put provisions in a law that says that abortion clinics have to have facilities available to bring a birth due to a botched abortion to the hospital to save its life or have advanced life support facilities on site. Planned parenthood from what I gather from this short clip only are concerned that this will end up like in texas whereby this will be something used to close abortion clinics or stop the opening as there will be rural abortion clinics that might be 45 minutes away from an A&E department thus will have issues with regulations that this law might bring in. Planned parenthood have issues with the wording used in the legislation but seem to want to work those issues out.

    tldr: Exaggerated bs from the anti-abortion side where 1+1 = 35,555


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    #405
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    UDP wrote: »
    You must have not watched the video at all.

    The woman is asked what happens when a baby comes out due to a botched abortion. The woman says she doesn't know as she is not a doctor. This is asked a number of times to which she responds she doesn't know but the decision what to do next would be with the woman, family and physician.


    she is arguing for a law change allowing for born babies to be murdered if the mother patient and abortionist agree to which the law maker replies ''what about the born live baby isnt that the patient'' and she says ''we are opposed to bringing the baby to the hospital''. so how is this sensationalist??? my god have you watched the video?? talk about denial lol its incredible that this can even be discussed by organizations that pro-choice support.

    you sense the disgust in the room its like the nurenburg trials.

    people can kid themselves all they want but this is where hard core abortion supporters are leading us.


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    #406
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    She actually says it is alright to kill a baby that has been born. I think she is more deluded than evil however as she is being badgered into a position she probably does not hold. Was there any follow-up?


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    #407
    UDP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭UDP


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    she is arguing for a law change allowing for born babies to be murdered if the mother patient and abortionist agree to which the law maker replies ''what about the born live baby isnt that the patient'' and she says ''we are opposed to bringing the baby to the hospital''. so how is this sensationalist??? my god have you watched the video?? talk about denial lol its incredible that this can even be discussed by organizations that pro-choice support.

    you sense the disgust in the room its like the nurenburg trials.

    people can kid themselves all they want but this is where hard core abortion supporters are leading us.
    Godwin'd eh?

    Please give me the background to this video as I can't be bothered wasting my time searching for what exactly they are talking for and the person posting the video unsurprisingly omitted facts such as what law the are talking about etc but rather had time to include a link to an online e-cigarette store to make some commission instead.


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    #408
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    UDP wrote: »
    Godwin'd eh?

    Please give me the background to this video as I can't be bothered wasting my time searching for what exactly they are talking for and the person posting the video unsurprisingly omitted facts such as what law the are talking about etc but rather had time to include a link to an online e-cigarette store instead.

    no probs if you cant be bothered, dont comment.


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    #409
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,779 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    she is arguing for a law change allowing for born babies to be murdered if the mother patient and abortionist agree to which the law maker replies ''what about the born live baby isnt that the patient'' and she says ''we are opposed to bringing the baby to the hospital''. so how is this sensationalist??? my god have you watched the video?? talk about denial lol its incredible that this can even be discussed by organizations that pro-choice support.

    I'd ask if you've watched the video as the highlighted text is misrepresentation of what was said in the video.

    The Planned Parenthood representative said she has problems with the proposed law as there would be issues complying with the law in a rural setting, i.e. an abortion clinic is an hour away from the nearest hospital.

    I don't see how that is equates to "they want to murder babies!" :confused:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #410
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    koth wrote: »
    I'd ask if you've watched the video as the highlighted text is misrepresentation of what was said in the video.

    The Planned Parenthood representative said she has problems with the proposed law as there would be issues complying with the law in a rural setting, i.e. an abortion clinic is an hour away from the nearest hospital.

    I don't see how that is equates to "they want to murder babies!" :confused:

    lies,people can watch this video and will see that this post is false. my link is there its quite obvious what they are talking about,a few hard core pro-choicers will lie and agree with your post,but most will be honest and disgusted with this.


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    #411
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    No one said 'they want to murder babies' either here or in the video. The woman in the video says it is up to the mother and the attendant/physician to decide what to do in the event of an abortion in which a live, healthy baby is produced.
    As an advocate of a woman's right to choose, I find her attitude horrific.


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    #412
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,779 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    lies,people can watch this video and will see that this post is false. my link is there its quite obvious what they are talking about,a few hard core pro-choicers will lie and agree with your post,but most will be honest and disgusted with this.

    I've watched it twice. Now if you want to back your accusation, tell me where in the video where the exchange you claim happened.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #413
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    koth wrote: »
    I've watched it twice. Now if you want to back your accusation, tell me where in the video where the exchange you claim happened.

    its there to watch it was a rough quote,people can watch this link,i notice that you dont have a view on the welfare of a live born baby,do you believe its the mother and abortionists choice if the new born baby should live or die??

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CyBvzKjje-g]


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    #414
    UDP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭UDP


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    no probs if you cant be bothered, dont comment.
    I can comment if I want. If you post a video that gives absolutely no background/context nor mentions what law or bill they are referring then you should provide this information rather than having posters here try to figure out what the context is. It looks like sensationalist youth defence style bs nonetheless.


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    #415
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,779 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    its there to watch it was a rough quote,people can watch this link,i notice that you dont have a view on the welfare of a live born baby,do you believe its the mother and abortionists choice if the new born baby should live or die??

    Oh, it's a "rough quote". So it wasn't actually said in the video. Thanks for clearing that up.

    As to your question. That depends on when the abortion takes place. AFAIK an abortion 21 weeks or less has almost 0% chance of survival (which means that there isn't really a question of live or die at that point). The rate then increases as the weeks pass.

    According to the CDC (2009 stats) 91.7% of abortions happened before 13 weeks Have you any stats as to what percentage of abortions occur after 21 weeks?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #416
    UDP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭UDP


    koth wrote: »
    According to the CDC (2009 stats) 91.7% of abortions happened before 13 weeks Have you any stats as to what percentage of abortions occur after 21 weeks?
    and any stats as to what percentage of attempted abortions occurring after 21 weeks that have resulted in a live birth?


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    #417
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    Look, the video shows a woman being asked about a hypothetical case in which a baby emerges alive and viable during an abortion. She suggests that the fate of the baby (whether it should be killed or saved) is up to the mother and the person providing the abortion.
    I find her view horrific and luckily this video wasn't around before the vote or we would surely have lost.


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    #418
    eireannBEAR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    burned alive by saline poison at abortion clinic at 5months and threw out with medical waste only to be found by a nurse days later and she survived.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CyBvzKjje-g

    21 week old fetus discarded alive in an abortion clinic only to be found alive two days later and brought to hospital but later dies.

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworldnews%2Feurope%2Fitaly%2F7646540%2FBaby-boy-survives-for-nearly-two-days-after-abortion.html&ei=x0zwUa70AtGf7gamjoDwCA&usg=AFQjCNEvidGU5NQ8wDX5hw--StlCt31aSw&sig2=xvSBDfIzLM5UZbsyd_g7tA

    italian


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    #419
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,779 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    burned alive by saline poison at abortion clinic at 5months and threw out with medical waste only to be found by a nurse days later and she survived.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CyBvzKjje-g

    21 week old fetus discarded alive in an abortion clinic only to be found alive two days later and brought to hospital but later dies.

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworldnews%2Feurope%2Fitaly%2F7646540%2FBaby-boy-survives-for-nearly-two-days-after-abortion.html&ei=x0zwUa70AtGf7gamjoDwCA&usg=AFQjCNEvidGU5NQ8wDX5hw--StlCt31aSw&sig2=xvSBDfIzLM5UZbsyd_g7tA

    italian

    The youtube link is to the same Planned Parenthood video you posted already. The story in Italy that you linked to states that the doctors were being investigated for infanticide. It's clearly not representative of legal abortions.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #420
    UDP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭UDP


    Banbh wrote: »
    She suggests that the fate of the baby (whether it should be killed or saved) is up to the mother and the person providing the abortion.
    The part you put in brackets is an incorrect choice list that was not given by the woman in the clip. A decision that happens in a hospital as to how to deal with a medical situation involving a baby is left between the family/mother and physician. Nowhere in the clip did she suggest the baby should be killed.


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    #421
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    eireannBEAR wrote: »
    burned alive by saline poison

    They're injecting some with phenol here (in Ireland) every day of the week.

    I know where it goes on.


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