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Abortion Discussion

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    #4352
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    I've been relying on the mirena coil for over a decade as it's one of the safest forms of contraception you can get.

    ...and yet I have a friend who has an interesting scan photo in which both her mirena and a foetus can be seen! She hadn't had it in very long so she's not sure which came first, the coil or the pregnancy.

    Can't have the mirena - it has hormones! At least there still is one without though, although you'd never know it from the way doctors push the mirena on you. It's as if they were treated to weekends away by mirena, and trained especially in how to insert only that particular coil!! .....Oh, wait. They were....

    And fcuk me, don't scare me with coil/embryo scans!! Ohh noeees, noes I tell you... :eek::eek:


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    #4353
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Obliq wrote: »
    Yes, though...so many women can't use hormonal contraception. I'm one. Turns me into a spotty, water-retaining mess with a permanent case of PMT (depression, in a long-term way). Thanks be to jebus for the copper IUD.

    I've had a major issue with contraception. The only one that worked was the depo provera injection but due to the risk of osteoperosis there is a time limit as to how long you can use it. The pill has given me everything from terrible skin to headaches to massive mood swings so its been trial and error to find something that works. I can see how easily someone trying to find the right contraception for them could be caught out. I'm now happy with what I'm using but very aware nothing is 100% safe and having completed my family I'd have no qualms about terminating if the worst happened.


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    #4354
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I'm iffy about hormonal contraception. I noticed a massive difference when I came off the pill even though I wasn't on it very long. I'm not going on it again so we'll be using other forms of contraception. I'll consider other, more permanent, methods when we know our family is complete. I'll never say never on having an abortion though.


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    #4355
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I'm now happy with what I'm using but very aware nothing is 100% safe and having completed my family I'd have no qualms about terminating if the worst happened.

    Same here. *shivers* .....and lest we forget, we're people who have no qualms about contraception. Certain religious folk would be less well educated about their options, particularly young ones. The IUD causes abortions, anyone?


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    #4356
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Obliq wrote: »
    Same here. *shivers* .....and lest we forget, we're people who have no qualms about contraception. Certain religious folk would be less well educated about their options, particularly young ones. The IUD causes abortions, anyone?

    Sure if you're not Pure in Heart you could get pregnant willy nilly!!11!!!11!!


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    #4357
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    To be fair, unless you're willing to "step up to the plate" and "take responsibility" you ladies shouldn't be having sex at all. Amirite?


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    #4358
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    And condoms are only 6% safe, like....why bother using them? We'd all be better off with the rhythm method and 15 babies, till we die on the 16th, sure. Everyone knows that.


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    #4359
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    "taking responsibility" is a matter of perspective. Anyone can have an accident and if you are not in a position to take care of a child or are not in the right place emotionally to raise one then choosing to have a termination is the responsible thing to do. Most contraception is very reliable so weighing up the odds I'll take my chances and have a sex life. But on the off chance that something goes wrong and a pregnancy occurs I know what my choice would be.


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    #4360
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    eviltwin wrote: »
    "taking responsibility" is a matter of perspective. Anyone can have an accident and if you are not in a position to take care of a child or are not in the right place emotionally to raise one then choosing to have a termination is the responsible thing to do. Most contraception is very reliable so weighing up the odds I'll take my chances and have a sex life. But on the off chance that something goes wrong and a pregnancy occurs I know what my choice would be.

    Oh, I was being entirely sarcastic there. I agree with you.


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    #4361
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    eviltwin wrote: »
    "taking responsibility" is a matter of perspective. Anyone can have an accident and if you are not in a position to take care of a child or are not in the right place emotionally to raise one then choosing to have a termination is the responsible thing to do. Most contraception is very reliable so weighing up the odds I'll take my chances and have a sex life. But on the off chance that something goes wrong and a pregnancy occurs I know what my choice would be.

    Totally agree with you. It would genuinely be irresponsible towards myself and my two children to have a baby at my age, and with my youngest needing as much attention as a baby a lot of the time. I wouldn't just "not want" to have another, I "shouldn't" have another. So I take as much precaution as I am comfortable with, in that the IUD (although not 100%) is as far as I'm willing to change my body in pursuit of contraception, and I take my chances.

    I wonder (because I'm wondering now what the "more responsible and righteous" among us think) would I be seen as taking too much risk towards a potential abortion by not using condoms as well? After all, it's for entirely selfish reasons that I don't/my fella doesn't? My reckoning is that after 2 kids, with an IUD, in a great LTR and at my age, I've earned the right to not have to use them.....but of course if I got pregnant, I'd have an abortion. Would that be seen as using abortion as a contraceptive, even though it's a minute chance I'd ever need to?


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    #4362
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Morag wrote: »
    So they have to use barrier methods which are less then 80% effective.

    Only if you're listening to the aforementioned Pure in Heart! They're citing a "failure rate" that includes "got drunk and forgot to use one at all", and other such "failure to use as directed" modes.

    Failure rate with correct use is reported to be on the order of 2% annually. Which is admittedly still pretty significant.


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    #4363
    thebomb
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭thebomb


    I try my best not too judge people I know of a few that have had abortions, I personally think it's a very selfish thing to do becoming a mother you have to sacrifice some Things but well worth it... I fell pregnant and got noting but abuse from the dad saying I was a disgusting person for wanting to keep the child, for 3 months I had many texts a day trying to force me to have an abortion... I have to give up a lot and also with the father not wanting to be involved ha've to do everything myself yes it going be hard but I rather it this way than kill a unborn child !! I think only way to have an abortion is if you were a rape victim or a young teenager other wise you made your bed lye in it !!!


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    #4364
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    thebomb wrote: »
    I try my best not too judge people I know of a few that have had abortions, I personally think it's a very selfish thing to do becoming a mother you have to sacrifice some Things but well worth it... I fell pregnant and got noting but abuse from the dad saying I was a disgusting person for wanting to keep the child, for 3 months I had many texts a day trying to force me to have an abortion... I have to give up a lot and also with the father not wanting to be involved ha've to do everything myself yes it going be hard but I rather it this way than kill a unborn child !! I think only way to have an abortion is if you were a rape victim or a young teenager other wise you made your bed lye in it !!!

    That's great but what was right for you isn't going to be right for everyone else. I had my first baby as a teenager, it all worked out grand thankfully but would I advise every teenage girl to get pregnant because of it? Hell no! Every situation is different. I find it hard to believe you know anyone who has had an abortion with that attitude, if you do you have no right to judge them, they made their choice based on what was right for them not you.


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    #4365
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    thebomb wrote: »
    I try my best not too judge people I know of a few that have had abortions, I personally think it's a very selfish thing to do becoming a mother you have to sacrifice some Things but well worth it... I fell pregnant and got noting but abuse from the dad saying I was a disgusting person for wanting to keep the child, for 3 months I had many texts a day trying to force me to have an abortion... I have to give up a lot and also with the father not wanting to be involved ha've to do everything myself yes it going be hard but I rather it this way than kill a unborn child !! I think only way to have an abortion is if you were a rape victim or a young teenager other wise you made your bed lye in it !!!

    Honey, you didn't "fall" pregnant. You either messed up in your contraception use, or you didn't use any. I can't speak for you, but did you already want to be a mother? One of those options would indicate that you did.

    Me, I want sex with no resulting children. There, I said it - how selfish of me, eh? What a biatch, like :pac: So my choice wouldn't be to continue a pregnancy. I would make every effort to have a termination within the first 12 weeks, and I don't see what's wrong with that kind of selfishness. You see, I don't believe a fetus is anything particularly special if it's not one you want. I'm not sentimental about "every sperm is sacred", nor every fetus.

    BTW, I'm also a lone parent. I'm not sure how the extra work load is relevant here - did you make some sort of sacrifice of yourself just so as to avoid an abortion, or just so you could have your baby - Which?


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    #4366
    iwantmydinner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    thebomb wrote: »
    I try my best not too judge people I know of a few that have had abortions, I personally think it's a very selfish thing to do ...

    I think only way to have an abortion is if you were a rape victim or a young teenager other wise you made your bed lye in it !!!

    You really need to try harder at the not judging thing.


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    #4367
    Bellatori
    Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭Bellatori


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I've had a major issue with contraception. The only one that worked was the depo provera injection but due to the risk of osteoperosis there is a time limit as to how long you can use it. The pill has given me everything from terrible skin to headaches to massive mood swings so its been trial and error to find something that works. I can see how easily someone trying to find the right contraception for them could be caught out. I'm now happy with what I'm using but very aware nothing is 100% safe and having completed my family I'd have no qualms about terminating if the worst happened.

    My wife had a lot of problems with the pill and went through, as you did, a fair range of varieties. It is why I had a vasectomy once we had our family. Contraception should not be viewed as just the woman's problem and having to rely on something that is less than 100% with abortion as a back up seems a bit harsh on them when the man can step up.

    An abortion at any stage is not without risk. A vasectomy is a much lower and one off risk.


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    #4368
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,935 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    thebomb wrote: »
    I think only way to have an abortion is if you were a rape victim or a young teenager other wise you made your bed lye in it !!!

    Great, will you tell that to all women who have been left crippled by pregnancy and/or childbirth, or to the families of women who have died during pregnancy and/or childbirth?


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    #4369
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Bellatori wrote: »
    My wife had a lot of problems with the pill and went through, as you did, a fair range of varieties. It is why I had a vasectomy once we had our family. Contraception should not be viewed as just the woman's problem and having to rely on something that is less than 100% with abortion as a back up seems a bit harsh on them when the man can step up.

    An abortion at any stage is not without risk. A vasectomy is a much lower and one off risk.

    I agree with you, but it wouldn't be an option for men who aren't in your position of having completed their family unless they knew they definitely didn't ever want children. It's a pity that the powers that be don't put more effort into the reversible 10yr injection for men that was developed and trialled in India, I believe. It is not based on hormones. The hypocrisy of the bleating about abortion and the lack of effort towards education about contraception, the massive cost of contraception and the lack of research into new methods is pretty sickening tbh.


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    #4370
    Bellatori
    Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭Bellatori


    Obliq wrote: »
    ...it wouldn't be an option for men who aren't in your position of having completed their family unless they knew they definitely didn't ever want children.

    I do recall a co-worker who had a vasectomy BEFORE his marriage for exactly that reason. He said that if he changed his mind it could be reversed (Hmmm...?!) and anyway there was always AID. Sorry but I thought that was weird. But then I thought my sisters decision was equally weird. She had three children and they (!) decided she would be sterilised. She argues that he might want more children if she dies and he remarried. I hope I kept a straight face when I heard this. Vasectomy - trivial operation over in 30 minutes on a dentist chair. You get to drive yourself home. Female sterilisation - invasive operation with some risk - there is a chance that the woman will need a hysterectomy from complications, oh and guess what...

    He was in his forties as was she.... in ten years the problem may well have gone away...



    Which is why I found your follow up significant...
    Obliq wrote: »
    It's a pity that the powers that be don't put more effort into the reversible 10yr injection for men that was developed and trialled in India, I believe. It is not based on hormones. The hypocrisy of the bleating about abortion and the lack of effort towards education about contraception, the massive cost of contraception and the lack of research into new methods is pretty sickening tbh.

    I can remember all the hype about Gossypol as a male contraceptive but this seems to have slowly vanished from the headlines and the research.


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    #4371
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Bellatori wrote: »
    I do recall a co-worker who had a vasectomy BEFORE his marriage for exactly that reason. He said that if he changed his mind it could be reversed (Hmmm...?!) and anyway there was always AID. Sorry but I thought that was weird.

    Ha! That IS weird!
    I can remember all the hype about Gossypol as a male contraceptive but this seems to have slowly vanished from the headlines and the research.

    Yup, anyone would think it was more convenient to see abortion as a form of contraception (even if it's shipped abroad and the service users shamed and lambasted) than to spend money on education and research, and that society sees no need to cut down on the possibilities for unwanted pregnancy. Convenient for whom, I wonder?

    Edit: http://malecontraceptives.org/methods/risug.php This has been in development since 1993. I find it remarkable that it wasn't jumped on immediately and pushed forward to WHO acceptable trial methods until 2006, and that there have been subsequent delays. It has taken a non-profit organisation (unnamed) to bring it to trial in the US. Do people not want this, or something?


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    #4372
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    thebomb wrote: »
    I try my best not too judge people I know of a few that have had abortions, I personally think it's a very selfish thing to do becoming a mother you have to sacrifice some Things but well worth it... I fell pregnant and got noting but abuse from the dad saying I was a disgusting person for wanting to keep the child, for 3 months I had many texts a day trying to force me to have an abortion... I have to give up a lot and also with the father not wanting to be involved ha've to do everything myself yes it going be hard but I rather it this way than kill a unborn child !! I think only way to have an abortion is if you were a rape victim or a young teenager other wise you made your bed lye in it !!!

    What about people who have all the children they can handle?
    or who have children with special needs?
    or who are undergoing chemo for cancer?
    or who have been told another pregnancy will kill them due to pre clampsia?


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    #4373
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Obliq wrote: »
    Edit: http://malecontraceptives.org/methods/risug.php This has been in development since 1993. I find it remarkable that it wasn't jumped on immediately and pushed forward to WHO acceptable trial methods until 2006, and that there have been subsequent delays. It has taken a non-profit organisation (unnamed) to bring it to trial in the US. Do people not want this, or something?


    Pharma companies are not interested, not enough of a profit margin and not enough of a repeat custom. the contraceptive pill has a monthly repeat custom.


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    #4374
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Morag wrote: »
    What about people who have all the children they can handle?
    or who have children with special needs?
    or who are undergoing chemo for cancer?
    or who have been told another pregnancy will kill them due to pre clampsia?

    Or who just don't want to be pregnant. I'll never understood why there needs to be a hierarchy of reasons as to why one woman "deserves" to access abortion but someone else doesn't.


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    #4375
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Morag wrote: »
    What about people who have all the children they can handle?
    or who have children with special needs?
    or who are undergoing chemo for cancer?
    or who have been told another pregnancy will kill them due to pre clampsia?

    I note that "thebomb" is only 20 weeks into her first pregnancy (from other posts). She has clearly made the right decision for her, but perhaps feels it should be right for everyone. Hopefully she'll come back and tell us why that is....


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    #4376
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Morag wrote: »
    Pharma companies are not interested, not enough of a profit margin and not enough of a repeat custom. the contraceptive pill has a monthly repeat custom.

    Is all medical research brought to trial because of profit? I know of course that it's a barrier if society is only depending on Pharma companies to decide what is researched and what is not, but I'm talking about the total lack of demand from society for a step along the way towards cutting the abortion rates, which is apparently a massive societal problem. The hypocrisy is endless really, isn't it?


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    #4377
    Bellatori
    Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭Bellatori


    Obliq wrote: »
    Is all medical research brought to trial because of profit?...

    From my experience with pharmaceutical companies, the answer is a resounding YES. Because profit is the motive several things are almost a given.
    Firstly research is aimed at palliatives and not cures because the latter has little repeat value.
    Secondly, research results are carefully 'evaluated' before being publicised so that we get an often rosier view of the efficacy of a drug.

    Something like Tamiflu hits both criteria and look how the UK government was gulled for millions


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    #4378
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Morag wrote: »
    Pharma companies are not interested, not enough of a profit margin and not enough of a repeat custom. the contraceptive pill has a monthly repeat custom.

    An IUD does not. They managed to research that one.....


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    #4379
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,752 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    lazygal wrote: »
    Or who just don't want to be pregnant. I'll never understood why there needs to be a hierarchy of reasons as to why one woman "deserves" to access abortion but someone else doesn't.

    Well said. Also perhaps worth mentioning that with an ever expanding world population and dwindling resources, along with a financially strained state purse, not having an additional unwanted child is also the more ethical and socially responsible choice.


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    #4380
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Here's a survey btw. Might be no harm to fill it out.

    http://malecontraceptives.org/new_activism.php

    "One of the biggest hurdles to the development of new contraceptives for men is the belief that there is no market for such products. Participate in this survey to help dispel that myth. This survey isn’t just for men — the participation of both men and women is important."

    Edit: This article is interesting http://www.bustle.com/articles/19164-new-male-birth-control-vasalgel-is-perfect-and-unavailable-and-needs-to-be-on-the , and I was a bit taken aback by the cost of getting an IUD in the US! Made my eyes water, in fact - rather like the procedure itself....


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    #4381
    Bellatori
    Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭Bellatori


    Obliq wrote: »
    An IUD does not. They managed to research that one.....

    Just not very well. There is an IUD called Mirena (?) that is currently giving cause for concern and I remember about 20 years ago an enormous kerfuffle about IUDs and one in particular that whose name escapes me that had terrible side effects and was withdrawn.


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