Abortion Discussion

rainbow kirby

Bellatori wrote: »

Just not very well. There is an IUD called Mirena (?) that is currently giving cause for concern and I remember about 20 years ago an enormous kerfuffle about IUDs and one in particular that whose name escapes me that had terrible side effects and was withdrawn.

You're probably thinking of the Dalkon Shield, that was closer to 40 years ago!

Obliq

Bellatori wrote: »

Just not very well. There is an IUD called Mirena (?) that is currently giving cause for concern and I remember about 20 years ago an enormous kerfuffle about IUDs and one in particular that whose name escapes me that had terrible side effects and was withdrawn.

Yes, the Mirena (mentioned before on the last page) is the IUD most widely used (and pushed, due to the aforementioned selling of Mirena to doctors) in Ireland. I didn't know there were any problems with it, except for the obvious ones of it having hormones and of women of my age not going to know when they're menopausal!

The coil is pretty trouble-free compared to the pill(s). Also don't know anything about the kerfuffle 20 yrs ago, but I do remember some business about the usual suspects being up in arms about it's abortifacient properties....

Morag

Obliq wrote: »

Yes, the Mirena (mentioned before on the last page) is the IUD most widely used (and pushed, due to the aforementioned selling of Mirena to doctors) in Ireland. I didn't know there were any problems with it, except for the obvious ones of it having hormones and of women of my age not going to know when they're menopausal!

The coil is pretty trouble-free compared to the pill(s). Also don't know anything about the kerfuffle 20 yrs ago, but I do remember some business about the usual suspects being up in arms about it's abortifacient properties....

The Mirena is an IUS, it has hormones, it does not cause abortions, the same the morning after pill/emergency contraceptives do not cause abortions.

The Mirena is frankly a gods send, it is more effective then a tubal ligation, and it is being used to treat side effects of menopause, so a woman an keep having it replaced until such time as a hormone panel shows she is post menopausal.

Obliq

Morag wrote: »

The Mirena is an IUS, it has hormones, it does not cause abortions, the same the morning after pill/emergency contraceptives do not cause abortions.

The Mirena is frankly a gods send, it is more effective then a tubal ligation, and it is being used to treat side effects of menopause, so a woman an keep having it replaced until such time as a hormone panel shows she is post menopausal.

Yes, I knew that, except I wrongly keep calling it an IUD. Thanks for the clarification! I know it's a god-send, but as I can't have it (and don't want to stop my periods/take hormones), the copper T does me very well. I'm on my 3rd now

I'm talking about how the religious folk objected to the IUD as they reckon it stops fertilised embryos from implanting.

Morag

Obliq wrote: »

Yes, I knew that, except I wrongly keep calling it an IUD. Thanks for the clarification! I know it's a god-send, but as I can't have it (and don't want to stop my periods/take hormones), the copper T does me very well. I'm on my 3rd now

I'm talking about how the religious folk objected to the IUD as they reckon it stops fertilised embryos from implanting.

Yep that is one of the actions and the extremists will say all hormonal contraception cause abortions as one of the actions is to thin out the lining of the womb so that implantation can't occur.

kylith

Obliq wrote: »

Yes, I knew that, except I wrongly keep calling it an IUD. Thanks for the clarification! I know it's a god-send, but as I can't have it (and don't want to stop my periods/take hormones), the copper T does me very well. I'm on my 3rd now

I'm talking about how the religious folk objected to the IUD as they reckon it stops fertilised embryos from implanting.

I vividly remember the religion teacher tasked with teaching us Sex Ed in third year saying that they were also ineffective and describing babies born with IUDs stuck in their brains, sticking out of their chests, and the like.

Even today I'm not entirely sure of how badly she was lying. My gut says 'a lot', but you know how it is when you're told things when you're at an impressionable age.

Bellatori

Obliq wrote: »

...The coil is pretty trouble-free compared to the pill(s). Also don't know anything about the kerfuffle 20 yrs ago, but I do remember some business about the usual suspects being up in arms about it's abortifacient properties....

rainbow kirby had it right. I checked with my wife and she was impressed that anyone remembered. It was the Dalkon Shield. THAT long ago!!

The sad legacy of the Dalkon Shield
nytimes.com/1987/12/06/magazine/the-sad-legacy-of-the-dalkon-shield.html

The reason it sprang to mind was that my wife's late aunt had an hysterectomy because, so I believe, of the Dalkon shield.

Morag

Failure rates for the IUC (the copper coil) are Perfect use 0.6% Typical use 0.8% that's 99.4% and 99.2% effective and even if a pregnancy occurs, which you have to admit is pretty unlikely, they are removed asap.

Failure rates for the IUS (Mirena) are Perfect use 0.2% Typical use 0.2% that's 99.8% effective;
and even if a pregnancy occurs, which you have to admit is pretty unlikely, they are removed asap.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/contraception-guide/Pages/iud-coil.aspx

There has been a lot of scaremongering around iud/ius over the last 20 years and honestly irish gps need to educate themselves better.

old hippy

thebomb wrote: »

I try my best not too judge people I know of a few that have had abortions, I personally think it's a very selfish thing to do becoming a mother you have to sacrifice some Things but well worth it... I fell pregnant and got noting but abuse from the dad saying I was a disgusting person for wanting to keep the child, for 3 months I had many texts a day trying to force me to have an abortion... I have to give up a lot and also with the father not wanting to be involved ha've to do everything myself yes it going be hard but I rather it this way than kill a unborn child !! I think only way to have an abortion is if you were a rape victim or a young teenager other wise you made your bed lye in it !!!

I think it's a rather selfish thing to tell people not to have an abortion simply because you don't believe in it.

Brian Shanahan

Obliq wrote: »

Me, I want sex with no resulting children. There, I said it - how selfish of me, eh? What a biatch, like :pac:

Not really, sex for pleasure is part of our evolutionary makeup, like with most primates. So doing it for fun is because your genes are looking for a bit of fun.

If sex were purely for procreation, then we'd be like most other mammals only doing it at a certain time of the year, when both genders are in heat. Oh, and it'd be a lot less touchy-feely too, just straight in out, in out, back to chomping on grass.

Brian Shanahan

Obliq wrote: »

Is all medical research brought to trial because of profit?

Depends on who's doing it. If its a pharmaceutical company, with certain exceptions, then yes is the answer. If it's a public body or governmental organisation or charity it is usually done on the lines of "will this work better than what we have?". The exceptions I mentioned earlier are small pharma companies which patent thousands of random chemical combinations in the hopes that one actually works for something and is sellable.

If you want to see how bad the pharmaceutical sector is for health matters, you should read Ben Goldacre's Bad Pharma.

Obliq

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Not really, sex for pleasure is part of our evolutionary makeup, like with most primates. So doing it for fun is because your genes are looking for a bit of fun.

If sex were purely for procreation, then we'd be like most other mammals only doing it at a certain time of the year, when both genders are in heat. Oh, and it'd be a lot less touchy-feely too, just straight in out, in out, back to chomping on grass.

Ha! Thanks Brian, but I'm 42 and have been having 20 years of sex for pleasure by now Only one mishap, happily resulting in a decision to continue my pregnancy, and one other planned pregnancy! But yes, for those who think sex for fun isn't god's plan for us - why do we have such fun with it?

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Depends on who's doing it. If its a pharmaceutical company, with certain exceptions, then yes is the answer. If it's a public body or governmental organisation or charity it is usually done on the lines of "will this work better than what we have?". The exceptions I mentioned earlier are small pharma companies which patent thousands of random chemical combinations in the hopes that one actually works for something and is sellable.

If you want to see how bad the pharmaceutical sector is for health matters, you should read Ben Goldacre's Bad Pharma.

And yes again, I've read it. I was playing devil's advocate trying to call into question why there is such a lack of interest in researching male long term contraception. This crowd are right up my street - I might bung them over a few quid actually... http://www.parsemusfoundation.org/

lazygal

God really included a few design flaws when he came up with the reproductive systems.

Cabaal

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Not really, sex for pleasure is part of our evolutionary makeup, like with most primates. So doing it for fun is because your genes are looking for a bit of fun.

If sex were purely for procreation, then we'd be like most other mammals only doing it at a certain time of the year, when both genders are in heat. Oh, and it'd be a lot less touchy-feely too, just straight in out, in out, back to chomping on grass.

now, now, sex for pleasure is a sin and don't you forget it! :pac:

Is it any wounder many religious people are so fecked up when it comes to sex and everything sex related, how can you have a normal sane outlook on it when you think its sinful?

PopePalpatine

old hippy wrote: »

I think it's a rather selfish thing to tell people not to have an abortion simply because you don't believe in it.

Something tells me she's a hit-and-run poster.

Obliq

Cabaal wrote: »

now, now, sex for pleasure is a sin and don't you forget it! :pac:

Is it any wounder many religious people are so fecked up when it comes to sex and everything sex related, how can you have a normal sane outlook on it when you think its sinful?

Well now, ain't that the truth? And the very reason brazen hussies (no better than they should be) with their orgasms and their toys and all, should LIE in their bed once they've MADE them, and be forced to bring every pregnancy to term. Like the religious people have to (*cough* 4,000 women travelling for abortions every year, and not one of them religious, I'd say..).

It's such a warped view and has such an impact on us all. How times have changed - I couldn't believe how ignorant we've become - can't remember what thread it was on, but I was seriously impressed to learn about the ancient greeks giving dildos as presents to newly widowed women. Bloody Christians, warping the world one bit of fun at a time, until they're all gone...

Morag

Please do not perpetuate the idea that religious people don't have abortions.
There are several types of christian denomination where it is not forbidden, then there are catholics who under the doctrine of conscience will have an abortion and then there are jewish people who have an abortion never mind those who are members of non abrhamic religions, who have had abortions.

Being religious does not preclude a person from being pro choice or from having an abortion.

Obliq

Morag wrote: »

Please do not perpetuate the idea that religious people don't have abortions.
There are several types of christian denomination where it is not forbidden, then there are catholics who under the doctrine of conscience will have an abortion and then there are jewish people who have an abortion never mind those who are members of non abrhamic religions, who have had abortions.

Being religious does not preclude a person from being pro choice or from having an abortion.

Sorry, should have used :pac::pac: these all over the place today. Not coming across well, clearly Should change it to RCC, to be fair.

Cabaal

Morag wrote: »

Please do not perpetuate the idea that religious people don't have abortions.
There are several types of christian denomination where it is not forbidden, then there are catholics who under the doctrine of conscience will have an abortion and then there are jewish people who have an abortion never mind those who are members of non abrhamic religions, who have had abortions.

Being religious does not preclude a person from being pro choice or from having an abortion.

I have to say I don't at all think this,
I watched the submissions to government last year, I believe off hand only two groups were totally against an abortion in all instances (including rape and incest). One of those groups were the catholic bishops.

So such a women should be shown love and support but force a women to give birth to a rapists baby! :mad::mad::mad::mad: How in the **** is that supporting a women?

A far more refreshing and progressive view was from Methodist Church of Ireland

Heidi Good of the Methodist Church of Ireland recognises that the issue is complex and difficult. She says the Methodist Church opposes ‘abortion on demand’ – but she outlines four cases in which the termination of pregnancy is acceptable: 1) the mother’s life is at risk, 2) the risk of grave risk of serious injury to physical or mental health ,3) gross abnormality of the foetus, 4) pregnancy resulting from rape or incest.

9.55 – Good said the Methodist Church “strongly urges” the Oireachtas to legislate and set minimum standards for the social good.

Obliq

Morag wrote: »

catholics who under the doctrine of conscience will have an abortion

Really? Never heard of this?!

Ps. I watched all that too Cabaal. Enlightening :-(

Morag

Obliq wrote: »

Really? Never heard of this?!

Yep freedom of conscience.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/secrethistory.asp

Thier president who's a Dub was only on RTE1 radio this morning talking about how that freedom of conscience allows for catholics to use contraception and to have abortions and that catholilcs have abortions to the same rate as everyone else.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/news/inthenews/2014/4.30.14RTEJohnMurrayShow.mp3

Lingua Franca

Morag wrote: »

Failure rates for the IUC (the copper coil) are Perfect use 0.6% Typical use 0.8% that's 99.4% and 99.2% effective and even if a pregnancy occurs, which you have to admit is pretty unlikely, they are removed asap.

Failure rates for the IUS (Mirena) are Perfect use 0.2% Typical use 0.2% that's 99.8% effective;
and even if a pregnancy occurs, which you have to admit is pretty unlikely, they are removed asap.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/contraception-guide/Pages/iud-coil.aspx

There has been a lot of scaremongering around iud/ius over the last 20 years and honestly irish gps need to educate themselves better.

I mentioned my friend who has a scan photo of her uterus showing both a mirena and a foetus but even to this day she does not know which came first, the mirena or the egg! She got her mirena in a few weeks before she discovered she was pregnant so it's most likely she was pregnant first. She chose to have the mirena removed and continue the pregnancy and then have a tubal ligation, if anyone cares.

I've had my mirena for over 10 years now (and am sitting with a script for a new, final, one just waiting to have the 180 euro to pay for it ) and I have loved it. I feel 100% secure with it and I've not menstruated at all since I've had it in. The loss of menstruation has also been my only side effect. I was told that the hormones only act in situ and don't really enter your system so it was safe for those who react badly to hormonal contraception, is this not true? I've never noticed any hormonal side effects other than the loss of periods. And never has a side effect been more welcomed!

alaimacerc

Morag wrote: »

Thier president who's a Dub was only on RTE1 radio this morning talking about how that freedom of conscience allows for catholics to use contraception and to have abortions and that catholilcs have abortions to the same rate as everyone else

Didn't catch the interview (but will do so on podcast), but note that "freedom of conscience allows for Catholics to do [X]" does not imply "Catholics doing [X] citing freedom of conscience won't necessarily be sanctioned or disciplined by the RCC".

Obliq

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I've had my mirena for over 10 years now (and am sitting with a script for a new, final, one just waiting to have the 180 euro to pay for it ) and I have loved it. I feel 100% secure with it and I've not menstruated at all since I've had it in. The loss of menstruation has also been my only side effect. I was told that the hormones only act in situ and don't really enter your system so it was safe for those who react badly to hormonal contraception, is this not true? I've never noticed any hormonal side effects other than the loss of periods. And never has a side effect been more welcomed!

Good one! I didn't want to trust to these new-fangled hormones not going to send me doolally, and I know loads of women who are only thrilled with the loss of periods. I couldn't go there I don't think. I need to know where I am in a month sometimes and that's my marker/reality check Isn't it great there's a IUS/IUD (whatever) for both of us?!

Cabaal

Misleading Pro-life leaflets doing the rounds in Limerick it seems, interesting to note no mention of FF though?
How upfront are FF about their stance on this?

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/05/01/be-the-change-2/

robindch

^^^ I believe there's a prolife march or demo or something this weekend -- Popette's suddenly showed up here in Dublin for no clear reason -- does anybody know where and when it is?

eviltwin

robindch wrote: »

^^^ I believe there's a prolife march or demo or something this weekend -- Popette's suddenly showed up here in Dublin for no clear reason -- does anybody know where and when it is?

Saturday 3rd may from 3-4pm outside the dail. Think its just lots of praying and rosary beads and that kind of jazz.

Cabaal

eviltwin wrote: »

Saturday 3rd may from 3-4pm outside the dail. Think its just lots of praying and rosary beads and that kind of jazz.

curious what they think the rosery beads, crosses and praying will get them?

eviltwin

Cabaal wrote: »

curious what they think the rosery beads, crosses and praying will get them?

I think they are praying that God will keep Ireland abortion free, he wasn't listening last time though I suppose it gives them something to do while they are waiting for mass.

Morag

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I mentioned my friend who has a scan photo of her uterus showing both a mirena and a foetus but even to this day she does not know which came first, the mirena or the egg! She got her mirena in a few weeks before she discovered she was pregnant so it's most likely she was pregnant first. She chose to have the mirena removed and continue the pregnancy and then have a tubal ligation, if anyone cares.

I've had my mirena for over 10 years now (and am sitting with a script for a new, final, one just waiting to have the 180 euro to pay for it ) and I have loved it. I feel 100% secure with it and I've not menstruated at all since I've had it in. The loss of menstruation has also been my only side effect. I was told that the hormones only act in situ and don't really enter your system so it was safe for those who react badly to hormonal contraception, is this not true? I've never noticed any hormonal side effects other than the loss of periods. And never has a side effect been more welcomed!

It's not the same hormoans as the contraceptive pill to start with and what is in it, is only 1/5th of the dose which the pill uses. So it can be suitable for women who can't use the pill. Yep same side effect here, am on my 3rd on, and if I had my way I'd happily never have another period.

Robin Yes there is an anti abortion Demo this weekend.
Sounds like you could do with one of Abortion Rights Campaign t shirts to wear this weekend