Abortion Discussion

gaynorvader

ryan101 wrote: »

Hardly relevant if someone is claiming they are only for medical reasons

I suppose you can always try to pretend they don't exist.

2500 every year from Ireland, where are they buried ?

Do you bury all bodily discharges?

Nodin

ryan101 wrote: »

Hardly relevant if someone is claiming they are only for medical reasons

They never said "medical reasons".

As they aren't human, I presume they are incinerated.

Bannasidhe

ryan101 wrote: »

They are human lives, 2500 every year from Ireland, and where are they buried ?

Mostly burnt - like my aunts body was but we like to call it cremation as 'burning the body' upsets some people's delicate sensibilities..

Some are brought back in the boot of their parent's car for burial.

What's your point?

Cabaal

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Mostly burnt - like my aunts body was but we like to call it cremation as 'burning the body' upsets some people's delicate sensibilities..

Some are brought back in the boot of their parent's car for burial.

What's your point?

They points kinda been lost since the posts were made in an attempts to derail the "Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam" have been moved to this thread,

However, no doubt they'll claim...you are ok with abortions when the mother makes a free will decision to have one within the law but you're not ok with nuns allowing 800 children up to the age of nine being allowed to die and suffer in abnormally high rates against the mothers wishes by the nuns.

Bannasidhe

Cabaal wrote: »

They points kinda been lost since the posts were made in an attempts to derail the "Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam" have been moved to this thread,

However, no doubt they'll claim...you are ok with abortions when the mother makes a free will decision to have one within the law but you're not ok with nuns allowing 800 children up to the age of nine being allowed to die and suffer in abnormally high rates against the mothers wishes by the nuns.

Ah.

Is that an example of the posts in the Nuns starved children thread? If it is I shan't bother with it.

pauldla

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ah.

Is that an example of the posts in the Nuns starved children thread? If it is I shan't bother with it.

You're not missing a whole lot there TBH; you could probably put together most of the exchanges yourself. What was that conversation you had with your mother where you shouted at her (shame on you etc)? It's pretty much that, over 36 pages.

We need more funnies.

Edit: But there is an internet petition (thanks to iguana) which might be worth taking a look at.

old hippy

ryan101 wrote: »

Hardly relevant if someone is claiming they are only for medical reasons

I suppose you can always try to pretend they don't exist.

2500 every year from Ireland, where are they buried ?

In the vivid imagination of pro-lifers, I'll warrant. They aren't kids; that's for sure.

Lingua Franca

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'm waiting patiently for the Alliance for Choice's press release on the matter. Did I miss it??

No press release but they acknowledged the story five days ago which is more than any pro life "Ireland cherishes all of her children" group has yet managed to do. https://www.facebook.com/AllianceForChoiceBelfast

aloyisious

ryan101 wrote: »

They are human lives, 2500 every year from Ireland, and where are they buried ?

@ryan101... It's possible, if when you mention human lives and burial, you are referring to aborted foetuses, that they are not buried. Richard Bingham posted this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8szDctI9lXM - on page 306 of this thread. I'd imagine the remains of aborted feotuses mentioned by the doctor were probably not buried but disposed of altenatively.

Bannasidhe

aloyisious wrote: »

@ryan101... It's possible, if when you mention human lives and burial, you are referring to aborted foetuses, that they are not buried. Richard Bingham posted this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8szDctI9lXM - on page 306 of this thread. I'd imagine the remains of aborted feotuses mentioned by the doctor were probably not buried but disposed of altenatively.

Already answered him.

Burnt.
Incinerated.
Cremated.

Take your pick. They essentially mean the same thing.

aloyisious

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Already answered him.

Burnt.
Incinerated.
Cremated.

Take your pick. They essentially mean the same thing.

LOL. I was hoping he'd arrive at the same conclusion himself after reviewing what the doctor said/described of his previous abortion operation activities, and realise there were probably no intact bodies to bury.

Kiwi in IE

The RCC treat 'illigitimate' children as subhuman, yet 'illigitimate' foetuses are sacred (but only if the woman wants an abortion).

It's not OK for a woman to terminate a pregnancy (or even take a pill to prevent the implantation of a zygote for that matter), but it is OK for nuns to decide whether 'illigitmate' children are worthy of life (saleable) or should be neglected and left to die? So they must be born, but once born there is no need to provide the necessities of life to keep them alive, and religious orders can decide this based on whether or not they can make money out of them?

Wake up Catholics!

Loafing Oaf

Interested in where people think the politics of abortion reform stand looking ahead to the next GE.

Solid starting point for these discussions I often find is to see what the bookies are saying. They've withdrawn the bet, but PP had been offering 2/9 that there would be no referendum on the subject before 2021. http://bettor-daze.com/2014/04/03/paddy-power-offering-abortion-prop-bet-nobody-is-betting-on-it/ I'd imagine that's based on the assumption that the next govt will be an FF/FG coalition, and I think it's fair to assume both of those parties would rather poke their own eyes out than raise the abortion issue again.

I think pro-choice groups should focus their efforts on persuading SF and other left parties to adopt the most progressive possible positions on abortion, and hope that they will be able to bring a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment before the people at some point.

Btw, I am presuming that further liberalisation of the law requires constitutional change, although I am aware there are differing opinions on this point.

Brian Shanahan

lynski wrote: »

catholic prolife ****e.

We should really stop using the anti-abortionists self labelling here. They are not pro life in any way, because if they were, they would, at a minimum, be in favour of abortions (or medicines likely to cause a termination) at any stage of a pregnancy (up to birth), if the mother's life or health came at risk from carrying the foetus, or if the needed medicine was likely to endanger the foetus.

They are not. They would rather see countless living, breathing women die than see one foetus not be carried to full term.

PopePalpatine

At the end of the day, the banning of abortion is a means to an end, namely creating a more authoritarian society. We've seen that they don't care about these foetuses when they're born, except as another patsy for the collection plate or another soldier for a holy war.

Richard Bingham

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

We should really stop using the anti-abortionists self labelling here. They are not pro life in any way, because if they were, they would, at a minimum, be in favour of abortions (or medicines likely to cause a termination) at any stage of a pregnancy (up to birth), if the mother's life or health came at risk from carrying the foetus, or if the needed medicine was likely to endanger the foetus.

They are not. They would rather see countless living, breathing women die than see one foetus not be carried to full term.

I am pro-life and if someone said to me that they would prefer to see a pregnant woman and (therefore also) her unborn baby die than for her to receive life saving medicine I would disregard them as a fool. The pregnant woman has to get the treatment she needs but it's no harm for doctors to have regard for the fact that there is a second life involved when they are treating the mother. That's what the term direct abortion is used for, to differentiate between the intentional killing of an unborn baby, which me and my ilk are always against, from medical treatment which results in the death of an unborn baby. That's not such a cruel position to take is it?

The catholic church don't preach that a woman should be allowed to die either as far as I know (although there may always be a few outliers who do). The catholic church don't preach much at all these days, so that they can hold on to the few who are still attending. When it comes to this issue, they are playing the numbers game just like the politicians.

Absolam

PopePalpatine wrote: »

At the end of the day, the banning of abortion is a means to an end, namely creating a more authoritarian society. We've seen that they don't care about these foetuses when they're born, except as another patsy for the collection plate or another soldier for a holy war.

I would suggest that controlling abortion is a means to an end, namely creating a more ethical society. We've seen that they don't care about these foetuses before they're born, except as another statistic for the argument or another pawn for the war on religion.

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/12/degrading/

“At least 3,679 women were forced to travel to the UK last year to access a safe and legal abortion because they are denied these necessary health services in their own country. Every day our clients tell us about their experiences of being abandoned by the Irish health care system and forced to rely on the services of another country.

“Since 1980, over 158,252 women have had to make the journey to the UK to access abortion. These women are not criminals but the law treats them as such because they are seeking a service that is illegal in almost every circumstance in Ireland.

“The criminalisation of abortion does not deter women from seeking an abortion but it does act as a barrier to receiving care. Abortion is the only other area of health where the Government can ignore its duty of care and shift the onus of seeking services onto women.”

robindch

Bishops in the US decide to keep lecturing everybody about abortion, being gay and marriage:

https://news.yahoo.com/catholic-bishops-keep-focus-abortion-marriage-211419458.html

Yahoo wrote:

NEW ORLEANS (AP) — U.S. Roman Catholic bishops meeting Wednesday renewed their focus on abortion and gay marriage under Pope Francis.

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops voted to make only limited revisions to a guide they publish every presidential election year on church teaching, voting and public policy. The bishops also reaffirmed their fight for broader religious exemptions to laws recognizing gay marriage and a requirement in the Affordable Care Act that employers provide health insurance covering birth control.

Francis has said the church has been alienating Catholics by focusing more on divisive social issues than on mercy and compassion.

The bishops' document on political responsibility, titled "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship," has been published every four years since 1976, and has become a point of contention within the church over which issues voters should consider most important: abortion or social justice. The bishops voted Wednesday to incorporate Francis' teachings into the document, but rejected a complete rewrite in favor of limited changes instead.

"The question of abortion will remain as very important," said Cardinal Daniel DiNardo of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston, Texas, after the vote at the national assembly in New Orleans. "There are pillars to the house and it is one of the pillars."

The bishops also voted to renew their committee on religious liberty, which has led their campaign for broader protection for religious charities and for individual business owners with religious objections to birth control, same-sex marriage and other issues.

Archbishop William Lori of Baltimore, chairman of the bishops' religious liberty committee, compared the effort to the anti-abortion movement, which started small in the 1960s and grew to have great influence in later decades.

"It's a major task on a generational scale," Lori told the bishops.

In their presentations, the bishops noted the tide of court decisions in recent months in favor of same-sex marriage, but said religious conservatives should not give up. Archbishop Charles Chaput of Philadelphia said "being discouraged would be the worst thing that we could do."

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

yahoo wrote:

The bishops also voted to renew their committee on religious liberty, which has led their campaign for broader protection for religious charities and for individual business owners with religious objections to birth control, same-sex marriage and other issues.

Archbishop William Lori of Baltimore, chairman of the bishops' religious liberty committee, compared the effort to the anti-abortion movement, which started small in the 1960s and grew to have great influence in later decades.

Of course this has nothing to do with the quest for religious liberty, but the quest for access of extra religious freedoms for catholics, and the restrictions of religious freedoms for non-catholics (of course the second position is a more long-term goal than the former).

aloyisious

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Of course this has nothing to do with the quest for religious liberty, but the quest for access of extra religious freedoms for catholics, and the restrictions of religious freedoms for non-catholics (of course the second position is a more long-term goal than the former).

But probably of no less importance to the elders. Anything else might be seen as heresy, offering aid and succour to heretics by default, :eek:

Bannasidhe

http://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/Repealthe8th/

Turtwig

March for life is on 5th July in Belfast.

No need to worry about placards these will be provided.

Cabaal

Turtwig wrote: »

March for life is on 5th July in Belfast.

No need to worry about placards these will be provided.

As will all the buses, don't forget the buses

Bannasidhe

Cabaal wrote: »

As will all the buses, don't forget the buses

any ipads going?

Granddaughter wants one for her birthday...

Turtwig

Now, now ban forum rules prohibit apple worship. A & A is exclusively android and Windows.

Be a cool gran and get a her android. The forum won't ostracise you for it.

eviltwin

No issues with a March for Life but be nice and avoid Marie Stopes, was in Belfast a few weeks back and what was going on outside was pure intimidation.

Turtwig

I suspect that's a large reason why it's on in Belfast this year.

Cabaal

eviltwin wrote: »

No issues with a March for Life but be nice and avoid Marie Stopes, was in Belfast a few weeks back and what was going on outside was pure intimidation.

intimidation, no, they'd never do that.....

Turtwig

Oh and I had a serious brain fart. It's Rally for life. D'oh.

And they alternate Dublin, Belfast every year so apologies for that , er, suspicion.