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Abortion Discussion

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    #5342
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    hinault wrote: »
    I equate all human life as being equal.

    So why are you dancing around Cabaal's question: do you count it as murder if a women has an abortion?

    Clearly, you do. But nobody else much does.

    Certainly that has never been the legal position here in Ireland, the Offenses against the person act which used to ban abortion until the pro-lifers accidentally made it unconstitutional was very clear that abortion was an entirely different and less serious crime than murder.


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    #5343
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    It's not alive

    Agreed.


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    #5344
    Leftist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    hinault wrote: »
    You asked me to consider if a human life is 6 months equal to an unborn human life.

    You didn't ask me to make a statement about what the Irish State holds.

    I consider all human life as being equal.

    You are entitled to that.

    but should your opinion be imposed as law on other people?

    I'm just trying to understand how anyone can suggest this opinion should be imposed by law on those who do not share the same beliefs?


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    #5345
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    hinault wrote: »
    Agreed.

    If you have a chunk of dead tissue that size inside you, you have a serious health issue. Get it out.


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    #5346
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    So why are you dancing around Cabaal's question: do you count it as murder if a women has an abortion?

    I'm not a lawyer. However the legal definition of murder applies to the deliberate killing of another human life ie. someone who has been born and is alive at the time of their killing.

    The thread is discussing the deliberate killing of an unborn human life. The term murder cannot apply in that case given that the human life has not been born, despite the act of deliberate killing taking place as a result of the mothers own decision.


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    #5347
    Leftist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    hinault wrote: »
    I'm not a lawyer. However the legal definition of murder applies to the deliberate killing of another human life ie. someone who has been born and is alive at the time of their killing.

    The thread is discussing the deliberate killing of an unborn human life. The term murder cannot apply in that case given that the human life has not been born, despite the act of deliberate killing taking place as a result of the mothers own decision.

    so it's not the law. Your opinion has no basis in law. So why should anyone else have to live by your uneducated opinion?


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    #5348
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    If you have a chunk of dead tissue that size inside you, you have a serious health issue. Get it out.

    What was the cause of death of said tissue?


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    #5349
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Leftist wrote: »
    so it's not the law

    What's not law?


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    #5350
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    hinault wrote: »
    I'm not a lawyer. However the legal definition of murder applies to the deliberate killing of another human life ie. someone who has been born and is alive at the time of their killing.

    The thread is discussing the deliberate killing of an unborn human life. The term murder cannot apply in that case given that the human life has not been born, despite the act of deliberate killing taking place as a result of the mothers own decision.

    But if all human life is equal, including the unborn, then it IS murder and the law is just wrong.

    For example, if OngoBongoland passes a law saying all Christians shall be stoned to death, that'll still be murder in my eyes, and the law is just wrong.


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    #5351
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    But if all human life is equal, including the unborn, then it IS murder and the law is just wrong.

    The law might well be wrong.


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    #5352
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    hinault wrote: »
    What was the cause of death of said tissue?

    What does it matter? Get it out!

    Similarly, if it is alive but threatening your health, like it's infected, inflamed and in danger of bursting, whip it out! It's an easy op these days, keyhole surgery usually, in and out very quickly, little scarring, back to yourself in no time.


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    #5353
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    My increasing usage of stronger terms is in response to the constant lying from those with an anti-abortion agenda that they are somehow pro-life. I am getting increasingly annoyed over this rampant mendaciousness about one of the fundamental tenets of their philosophy, viz. the life of the pregnant woman isn't wort shít except as a vessel for the foetus which has only a potential for life.

    You would get on well with your new spokesperson Amanda.

    There is two lives involved, not one.


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    #5354
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    What does it matter?

    It doesn't matter to an abortion apologist that is.


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    #5355
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Cabaal wrote: »
    319239.jpg
    No personal comments, plz.


    .


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    #5356
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    hinault wrote: »
    The law might well be wrong.

    Still tap-dancing around it?

    If a fertilized egg is a human life, of the same value as yours and mine, then abortion is murder.

    3,500 Irish people are murdered in 2013, and you don't think the Government should try to stop this by banning travel to England for babykilling?


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    #5357
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Still tap-dancing around it?

    Nope. Just explaining to an abortion apologist how the law is applied.


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    #5358
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Still tap-dancing around it?

    If a fertilized egg is a human life, of the same value as yours and mine, then abortion is murder.

    3,500 Irish people are murdered in 2013, and you don't think the Government should try to stop this by banning travel to England for babykilling?

    You can do all sorts of things abroad to children that are not legal here, you can't stop people going abroad to do them.


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    #5359
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    You can do all sorts of things abroad to children that are not legal here, you can't stop people going abroad to do them.

    What country's made it legal to murder a child or adult, care to name them?

    Bottom line is it would be illegal to obtain details on how to murder your child while in Ireland and then to travel with the expressed intent of murdering a child.

    In short if the Gardai found out you intended to travel to say Adeqestan (obviously made up as no country legally allows murdering) then then Gardai would stop you.

    However in Ireland the Gardai will not stop you traveling to the uk for an abortion and they certainly won't stop you obtaining information on how to have an abortion in the uk...its legal to obtain such information. Why, because the government does not class a fetus as a child and they do not consider it murder.



    On a side vote, yeah you can do all sorts of things in other country's that are not legal in Ireland. After all if you were a sick twisted person you could legally have sex with a 12 year old in the Vatican until 2013.


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    #5360
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    You can do all sorts of things abroad to children that are not legal here, you can't stop people going abroad to do them.

    What about a woman who has an abortion here? It does happen. Should she be charged with murder?


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    #5361
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    You can do all sorts of things abroad to children that are not legal here, you can't stop people going abroad to do them.

    Yes, you really can. The only reason you can't stop them travelling for an abortion any more is that we added a special clause to the Constitution to stop you doing that based on clause 40.3.3

    You could still do it under clause 40.3.2, the clause protecting the life the citizen, but they'd have to be born first. For example, if you could show that a family intended to take a daughter somewhere else for an honour killing, you could stop them. The travel clause explicitly applies to the protection of the unborn only.


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    #5362
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Cabaal wrote: »
    However in Ireland the Gardai will not stop you traveling to the uk for an abortion. Why, because the government does not class a fetus as a child and they do not consider it murder.

    The law not being applied doesn't make something illegal, legal.

    The failure to detect the sale of alcohol to a person under 18 years of age, is a failure to apply the law, doesn't make that sale legal.


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    #5363
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    hinault wrote: »
    The law not being applied doesn't make something illegal, legal.


    The government is still applying its laws but its laws simply don't see abortion and information about abortion as murder and rightly so.

    The Irish government funds organizations that are more then happy to provide information on
    - Abortion clinics
    - After abortion support services

    http://www.positiveoptions.ie/abortion-the-law/

    Sure the same organization advises people on the law in Ireland but it is also more then happy to give all the info people need to have an abortion if they choose to do so.

    So its 100% clear that the Irish government does not see abortion as murder, if they did they wouldn't give information on how to carry it out.

    Its also clear the Irish government does not see abortion information as illegal.

    Even if a women did have an abortion carried out in the Republic Of Ireland the government still don't class this as murder or even manslaughter.

    Under the law they give either prison or a fine for doing so, fine's are not something applied as a sentence in murder cases.
    The failure to detect the sale of alcohol to a person under 18 years of age, doesn't make that sale legal.

    Very silly comparisonl,

    For starters, please find a government funded website that gives clear instructions to under 18 year olds on how to obtain alcohol illegally.

    No such website exists because the Irish government see sale of alcohol to under 18 year olds as illegal.


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    #5364
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Cabaal wrote: »
    The government is still applying its laws but its laws simply don't see abortion and information about abortion as murder and rightly so.

    The government doesn't claim that abortion is murder. The law doesn't claim that abortion is murder either.

    Your construction of this strawman is novel.


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    #5365
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    hinault wrote: »
    The government doesn't claim that abortion is murder. The law doesn't claim that abortion is murder either.

    Your construction of this strawman is novel.

    If an unborn child isn't being murdered by abortion, what exactly happens to the unborn child when its aborted? Do you think we should repeal the constitutional provision allowing women to travel abroad when their purpose of travel is aborting an unborn child which is supposed to have constitutional protection?
    Why does the State not recognize an unborn child aborted by nature as a child before 24 weeks gestation? We don't issue death certs or treat the unborn nature is aborting before 24 weeks gestation, unless the unborn is born alive and survives.


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    #5366
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Cabaal wrote: »
    So its 100% clear that the Irish government does not see abortion as murder, if they did they wouldn't give information on how to carry it out.

    Its also clear the Irish government does not see abortion information as illegal.

    And the Irish electorate voted in 1992 making this the law of the land: travelling for an abortion is A-OK, and giving information about how and where to travel for an abortion is guaranteed legal.

    The view that abortion is murder is an extreme, fringe view even among pro-lifer's.


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    #5367
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,682 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    The section covering this within "the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013" is clear when it comes to abortion here. It doesn't mention kill, killing or murder, just intentionally destroy unborn human life.

    Section 22,

    Sub-section (1) It shall be an offence to intentionally destroy unborn human life.

    " (2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on indictment to
    a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.

    " (3) A prosecution for an offence under this section may be brought only by or with the
    consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.


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    #5368
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    aloyisious wrote: »
    The section within "the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013" is clear on the issue of killing when it comes to abortion here. It doesn't mention kill, just intentionally destroy unborn human life.

    Section 22,

    Sub-section (1) It shall be an offence to intentionally destroy unborn human life.

    " " (2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on indictment to
    a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.

    " " (3) A prosecution for an offence under this section may be brought only by or with the
    consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

    Which means we do distinguish between an unborn and a born child. Had I imported pills and aborted an eight week old foetus I would be charged with an entirely different offence than if I had smothered my eight minute old baby to death. The unborn is, as I've said before, a legally meaningless phrase and is not the same as born.


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    #5369
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    lazygal wrote: »
    If an unborn child isn't being murdered by abortion, what exactly happens to the unborn child when its aborted?.

    The unborn human life is being deliberately killed.


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    #5370
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    hinault wrote: »
    The unborn human life is being deliberately killed.

    Why do we allow unborn children to be taken from the state, which affords them constitutional protection, and be killed in another state? What exactly is the difference between me taking my two children to another country to be killed and me traveling to Liverpool to terminate a pregnancy? Should I be prosecuted for both offences on my return?

    Do you support repealing the right for pregnant women to travel with the express intention of killing the unborn in another country?


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    #5371
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    lazygal wrote: »
    Why do we allow unborn children to be taken from the state, which affords them constitutional protection, and be killed in another state? What exactly is the difference between me taking my two children to another country to be killed and me traveling to Liverpool to terminate a pregnancy? Should I be prosecuted for both offences on my return?

    Do you support repealing the right for pregnant women to travel with the express intention of killing the unborn in another country?

    I don't support the deliberate killing of human life.


This discussion has been closed.
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