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Abortion Discussion
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I know the answer to this - by that time hopefully she will be nearly at viability, so we'll just get a court order to hold her down and force feed her until the baby can be surgically removed and put into intensive care.And if after the counselling she still doesn't want to remain pregnant what's the solution?
But she will be held down and force fed with the greatest care and respect for her, of course. :mad:
And it's in her own best interests really. Less caring men in a less caring country would all head down to the pub and let her get on with her life, according to someone upthread.0 -
I know the answer to this - by that time hopefully she will be nearly at viability, so we'll just get a court order to hold her down and force feed her until the baby can be surgically removed and put into intensive care.
But she will be held down and force fed with the greatest care and respect for her, of course. :mad:
And it's in her own best interests really. Less caring men in a less caring country would all head down to the pub and let her get on with her life, according to someone upthread.
Yes it's better than being dead, apparently.0 -
Ok then it's not a form of contraception, it must be a form of murder soaloyisious wrote: »Contra-ception, the word itself means what it say's, behaviour contrary to inception, a way of preventing the start of a pregnancy, the using of a device or other method to assist a woman from becoming pregnant.
The church approves of natural contra-ception: https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FNatural_family_planning&ei=FUYPVNi6F7OO7Qb7yYGICw&usg=AFQjCNGBy_FqTrMzdC24HTNWMg6dCXrT5w
It sound's like you think of abortion as late-term contraception; a contradiction in itself. The use of the word insane is interesting, did you just chance to use that word?0 -
If you bothered to read what has been posted here you'd realise that I am ok with abortion if the life of the mother is at risk (includes suicide), rape, fetal abnormalities.Bannasidhe wrote: »Yes. A foetus which had the potential to become a fully functioning human being dies during an abortion.
But without safe abortion all too often the reluctant mother dies too. Is that ok with you Tim?
Is is ok that women die trying to have an unwanted foetus killed because they weren't rape victims an so didn't deserve a safe abortion?
It's not ok Tim.
I am not ok with 5,000+ abortions a year when nobody doesn't even seem to be bothered by how many of these were preventable by using contraception. This obsession with her body her choice is nonsense. What about the body of the fetus? Don't they have a choice too?0 -
Society already dictates the choices available to both men and women. As a member of society my opinion holds as much weight as yours, and, as you say, that of others like you.Bannasidhe wrote: »Yeah. The problem is that your 'opinion' and that of others like you gets to dictate the choices available to women.
I think it might make the difference between her wanting to die and not wanting to die. More difference than me saying being dead is worse than being alive,anyway.Bannasidhe wrote: »Woman/girl finds out she is pregnant.
She is in despair. She is faced with a situation that has a strict time limit. You think qualified counselling is the answer????
I think you made that pretty clear earlier?Bannasidhe wrote: »FFS! SHE DOES NOT WANT TO BE PREGNANT.
But that's not what I said? I said counselling might be more useful to her than me saying being dead is worse than being alive, which is what you suggested I do. Frankly, I think my idea was more constructive than yours.Bannasidhe wrote: »No amount of 'qualified' counselling will stop her being pregnant.
Are you saying counselling is of no benefit to anyone who is feeling suicidal, or just women?Bannasidhe wrote: »Do you think women are so stupid that we can be talked around? That we do not 'understand' how we feel?
Sometimes people can't be persuaded not to make bad choices. Are you suggesting we should never try?Bannasidhe wrote: »We are not children. We understand that a thing is happening in our bodies and we DO NOT WANT IT. We know there are methods to stop it. Some safe. Some dangerous. That is the choice.
I'm getting the impression you're not a big fan of psychiatrists?Bannasidhe wrote: »Not whether or not we want to chat to a Freudian or a Jungian or a cuddly wuddly psychoanalyst and told how we are mistaken.
I really think that when the choice is commit suicide or talk to a counseller, if even one person talks to a counsellor it's not a bad thing.Bannasidhe wrote: »Do you really think when the choice is pay for counselling or pay for an abortion women who are unwillingly pregnant will think 'ah, lying down on a couch for an hour or two a week will sort me out'?
I'm pretty sure this is the third time you've said this in the last three pages. This is the third time I've replied, so you can hardly imagine I don't understand what you're saying when I reply again, the fact that people want to commit a crime regardless of the fact that it's a crime does not mean we should decriminalise it.Bannasidhe wrote: »Can you really not understand that regardless of your opinion or what laws are in force some women/girls will still seek to terminate unwanted pregnancies?
No, it isn't. It is my belief that an unborn child has a right to life, which may be considered less than the right of the prospective mother should it threaten the life of the prospective mother. I believe that as a society, so long as we espouse that belief, we should take appropriate steps to protect and vindicate those rights.Bannasidhe wrote: »Is your belief in the right to life of the unborn so all consuming that you would see them die too because of your 'opinion' about a set of circumstances you personally will never face?0 -
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Why? can you share any information on the efficacy of suicide counselling?I'd say it wouldn't be any better from a practical point of view all the same, it would just be better expressed.
Probably a great deal, as I'm not a psychiatrist. So I'd probably defer to one (or at least a representative body of them) when it comes to opinions on how to treat it.What don't you understand about the fact of a pregnancy being the cause of a woman becoming suicidal?
So what's your point? The Court considered that there was a real and substantial threat to the womans life.Recently we've had people from the anti-choice side of the debate saying that the X case didn't prove the girl was suicidal because she saw a psychologist and not a psychiatrist.
I don't think I actually offered an opinion on how to treat her? Please feel free to quote me....Now we have two psychiatrists certifying that a young woman was suicidal due to her pregnancy, and still you think your opinion about how to treat her is important enough not just to be heard, but for it to be a reason to refuse a termination to someone you have never met and know nothing of.
Not quite as stunning as your ability to put words in my mouth I'm afraid...The arrogance is stunning.0 -
I didn't actually suggest counselling as a solution to being pregnant? I said that counselling would probably be far more helpful to someone who is feeling suicidal than hearing my opinion that being alive is better than being dead as Bannasidhe suggested.And if after the counselling she still doesn't want to remain pregnant what's the solution?0 -
I didn't actually suggest counselling as a solution to being pregnant? I said that counselling would probably be far more helpful to someone who is feeling suicidal than hearing my opinion that being alive is better than being dead as Bannasidhe suggested.
The question is why are we discussing your opinion about an unknown woman's pregnancy at all? It's none of your business, full stop.0 -
You're right of course, an unknown woman's pregnancy is no more of my business than it is your business, so I suppose neither of us has any more right to express our opinions than our right to freedom of expression allows.The question is why are we discussing your opinion about an unknown woman's pregnancy at all? It's none of your business, full stop.
But really we're actually discussing abortion, on which subject everyone who has a right to vote should positively be encouraged to discuss and examine their opinions, don't you think? After all, it's their opinions that will decide how the legislation changes in the future.0 -
Is that an appeal to my sentiment? I imagine a crisis pregnancy is an excruciating situation, and we can trot all the options that can make it even more excruciating if you like. If you want to reduce the entire complicated discussion to that one single thing, I simply imagine being dead is worse.
I wasn't appealing to anything in particular. I was wondering if you'd ever thought about a crisis pregancy from the pregnant woman or girl's point of view. I asked because your posts *reek* of don't-give-a-****.
I've been lucky enough that I've never even had so much as a pregnancy scare, and I almost have a panic attack when I think about how a crisis pregnancy must feel.0 -
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Tim Robbins wrote: »If you bothered to read what has been posted here you'd realise that I am ok with abortion if the life of the mother is at risk (includes suicide), rape, fetal abnormalities.
I am not ok with 5,000+ abortions a year when nobody doesn't even seem to be bothered by how many of these were preventable by using contraception. This obsession with her body her choice is nonsense. What about the body of the fetus? Don't they have a choice too?
Why is a foetus conceived through rape fair game but not a foetus conceived due to a failure of contraception?
That is what you have not addressed.
Why does the 'rape baby' die and you are ok with that but not the 'drunken one night stand baby'?
Smacks of who you think is 'worthy' of life
'Obsession with her body' - well well. Sums it up. How very selfish of a woman to be 'obsessed' with what happens to her body. Said the man.0 -
You're right of course, an unknown woman's pregnancy is no more of my business than it is your business, so I suppose neither of us has any more right to express our opinions than our right to freedom of expression allows.
But really we're actually discussing abortion, on which subject everyone who has a right to vote should positively be encouraged to discuss and examine their opinions, don't you think? After all, it's their opinions that will decide how the legislation changes in the future.
Except that you aren't discussing abortion there, you were opining about suicidal feelings due to a crisis pregnancy. It's all very well saying everyone has a vote, but that doesn't mean everyone's opinion is as valid as everyone else's.
Suicidal feelings during pregnancy can be distinguished from suicidal feelings about the pregnancy. There is a difference, and you are ignoring that by suggesting counselling for a woman who simply wants to end her pregnancy and may become suicidal if she can't.
It's like with Marie Fleming : no-one would deny that she was suicidal, but does anyone imagine that if the possibility of a cure for her multiple sclerosis had been available that she would have needed counselling for her suicidal feelings? Or the treatment to remove the cause of it?0 -
How do you know that abortions take place because of contraception not being used? I'm sure many couples have had contraception fail to work, or want to terminate because of fatal foetal abnormalities, or myriad other reasons. Why are you obsessed with the intent behind why a woman has an abortion? Why are you obsessed with the abortion as contraception argument? Why is one reason for having an abortion, such as pregnancy because of rape, valid but another isn't?Tim Robbins wrote: »If you bothered to read what has been posted here you'd realise that I am ok with abortion if the life of the mother is at risk (includes suicide), rape, fetal abnormalities.
I am not ok with 5,000+ abortions a year when nobody doesn't even seem to be bothered by how many of these were preventable by using contraception. This obsession with her body her choice is nonsense. What about the body of the fetus? Don't they have a choice too?
The foetus does not have a choice because no one is allowed to legally compel another person to maintain their life. I'm not allowed to legally compel my husband to give me blood or a kidney to maintain my 'right to life'. The state does not compel me to give my children my blood or any other body parts to maintain their 'right to life'.0 -
Society already dictates the choices available to both men and women. As a member of society my opinion holds as much weight as yours, and, as you say, that of others like you.
I think it might make the difference between her wanting to die and not wanting to die. More difference than me saying being dead is worse than being alive,anyway.
I think you made that pretty clear earlier?
But that's not what I said? I said counselling might be more useful to her than me saying being dead is worse than being alive, which is what you suggested I do. Frankly, I think my idea was more constructive than yours.
Are you saying counselling is of no benefit to anyone who is feeling suicidal, or just women?
Sometimes people can't be persuaded not to make bad choices. Are you suggesting we should never try?
I'm getting the impression you're not a big fan of psychiatrists?
I really think that when the choice is commit suicide or talk to a counseller, if even one person talks to a counsellor it's not a bad thing.
I'm pretty sure this is the third time you've said this in the last three pages. This is the third time I've replied, so you can hardly imagine I don't understand what you're saying when I reply again, the fact that people want to commit a crime regardless of the fact that it's a crime does not mean we should decriminalise it.
No, it isn't. It is my belief that an unborn child has a right to life, which may be considered less than the right of the prospective mother should it threaten the life of the prospective mother. I believe that as a society, so long as we espouse that belief, we should take appropriate steps to protect and vindicate those rights.
If a person is feeling suicidal as they are overwhelmed by debt - do you think they are mentally ill or do you think removing the cause - i.e. debt - will solve the problem?
Should MABS provide a counselling service?
If a woman is feeling her life is untenable due to being pregnant then terminating the pregnancy removes the cause.
BTW - I did not say every one who dies due to an unwanted pregnancy commits sucicide - that is a tangent you went down all by yourself.
Perhaps you cannot face the reality that women chose unsafe methods to terminate a pregnancy because they want to live without having to carry a child to term. They want their life to return to as it was before they got pregnant - if a wire hanger or a drug overdose seems the only way to regain their life then a wire hanger or a drugs overdose is what they will do.
You and your ilk will continue to let them die from infections etc while claiming to value life. No. you do not value life. You do not value their lives one little bit. They shall be sacrificed on the alter of your 'opinion'.
Gosh.. how selfish of women to not want to carry a foetus inside them for 9 months. No man would ever be so selfish. We must punish this selfish women... oh... WE DO.0 -
In that case, I have thought about a crisis pregnancy from the pregnant woman or girl's point of view. I assuredly do give a ****, and I also give a **** about the foetus as well.iwantmydinner wrote: »I wasn't appealing to anything in particular. I was wondering if you'd ever thought about a crisis pregancy from the pregnant woman or girl's point of view. I asked because your posts *reek* of don't-give-a-****. I've been lucky enough that I've never even had so much as a pregnancy scare, and I almost have a panic attack when I think about how a crisis pregnancy must feel.0 -
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Tim Robbins wrote: »I am not ok with 5,000+ abortions a year when nobody doesn't even seem to be bothered by how many of these were preventable by using contraception. This obsession with her body her choice is nonsense. What about the body of the fetus? Don't they have a choice too?
Basically you disapprove of people who have what might be called "on demand" abortions. That doesn't give you the right to demand that they be made illegal. I disapprove of most religions, that doesn't mean I think my opinion should forced onto other people, and that religions should be made illegal. Other adults can make their own minds up about it.
One of the consequences of living in a tolerant society is accepting that other adults may decide to act in a way that they believe to be correct but you do not. Wanting to force people to live by your own morals is not acceptable. You can try to persuade, within reason - for example, we try to persuade people to drink less, for health reasons, but we don't just ban booze.0 -
Or we all say, we have made our will clear and voted to make abortion illegal in this country. We do not believe it is feasible to exercise that will in other countries.
No, that won't do as an excuse. The Attorney General got an injunction, and the pregnant rape victim did not go through with her abortion, she returned from England.
The 8th Amendment did exactly what it said on the tin (except where the woman was suicidal, after the Supreme Court judgement).
We didn't pass the 13th amendment because the 8th wasn't feasible, we passed it because it was horribly, horribly effective.
If you really want to give yourself the willies, read the part of the judgement written by Hederman:
It has not been argued that the words "having regard to the equal right of life of the mother" should be construed more widely than preserving the life of the mother and should be construed to be wide enough to include a situation where the best expert opinion is to the effect that the continuance of the pregnancy would be to make the mother a physical wreck. I do not think the word "life" in this context is to be construed any differently from the word "life" in the earlier part of the same Article though the State would be obliged to do all it reasonably possibly can to take steps to prevent anybody becoming a physical or a mental wreck, short of taking innocent life to achieve it. Fortunately the Court does not have to decide this matter now but has to decide the matter in the context of a threat of suicide. Suicide threats can be contained. The duration of the pregnancy is a matter of months and it should not be impossible to guard the girl against self-destruction and preserve the life of the unborn child at the same time. The choice is between the certain death of the unborn life and a feared substantial danger of death but no degree of certainty of the mother by way of self-destruction.
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In that case, I have thought about a crisis pregnancy from the pregnant woman or girl's point of view. I assuredly do give a ****, and I also give a **** about the foetus as well.
Enough of a **** to want them and their doctors be able to decide if and when an abortion is the best course of action?0 -
Zubeneschamali wrote: »No, that won't do as an excuse. The Attorney General got an injunction, and the pregnant rape victim did not go through with her abortion, she returned from England.
The 8th Amendment did exactly what it said on the tin (except where the woman was suicidal, after the Supreme Court judgement).
We didn't pass the 13th amendment because the 8th wasn't feasible, we passed it because it it was horribly, horribly effective.
If you really want to give yourself the willies, read the part of the judgement written by Hederman:
It has not been argued that the words "having regard to the equal right of life of the mother" should be construed more widely than preserving the life of the mother and should be construed to be wide enough to include a situation where the best expert opinion is to the effect that the continuance of the pregnancy would be to make the mother a physical wreck. I do not think the word "life" in this context is to be construed any differently from the word "life" in the earlier part of the same Article though the State would be obliged to do all it reasonably possibly can to take steps to prevent anybody becoming a physical or a mental wreck, short of taking innocent life to achieve it. Fortunately the Court does not have to decide this matter now but has to decide the matter in the context of a threat of suicide. Suicide threats can be contained. The duration of the pregnancy is a matter of months and it should not be impossible to guard the girl against self-destruction and preserve the life of the unborn child at the same time. The choice is between the certain death of the unborn life and a feared substantial danger of death but no degree of certainty of the mother by way of self-destruction.
No matter how many times I read that, it makes my blood run cold every damn time.0 -
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So, if Bannasidhe introduces the subject of suicide into an abortion discussion, I shouldn't be allowed an opinion? Or I should only have the opinion you express for me? I think I'll stick to deciding for myself, thanks.Except that you aren't discussing abortion there, you were opining about suicidal feelings due to a crisis pregnancy.
It doesn't mean they're not though, does it?It's all very well saying everyone has a vote, but that doesn't mean everyone's opinion is as valid as everyone else's.
I'm not ignoring it at all. At the risk of only ever repeating myself, I'm saying that if a woman has suicidal feelings about a pregnancy (or during a pregnancy) qualified counselling may be of more help to her than me telling her that being alive is better than being dead as Bannasidhe suggested I do.Suicidal feelings during pregnancy can be distinguished from suicidal feelings about the pregnancy. There is a difference, and you are ignoring that by suggesting counselling for a woman who simply wants to end her pregnancy and may become suicidal if she can't.
I would definitely suggest that qualified counselling would have been of more help to her than me telling her that being alive is better than being dead.It's like with Marie Fleming : no-one would deny that she was suicidal, but does anyone imagine that if the possibility of a cure for her multiple sclerosis had been available that she would have needed counselling for her suicidal feelings? Or the treatment to remove the cause of it?0 -
iwantmydinner wrote: »No matter how many times I read that, it makes my blood run cold every damn time.
Women are vessels in Ireland. So are 14 year old children pregnant as a result of rape. Our law states this - the life of a zygote is the same as the life of a born raped child who talks about throwing herself in front of a train because she is pregnant with a rapist's child. If my child was 14, pregnant as a result of rape, and living in Ireland she would have no right to terminate the pregnancy in Ireland and in 1992 the state, via the attorney general, might have sought to prevent my raped, suicidal, pregnant child from traveling to terminate her pregnancy. Ms X is still only in her 30s - I'm in a similar age bracket. I hope she's living a happy life now.0 -
I would definitely suggest that qualified counselling would have been of more help to her than me telling her that being alive is better than being dead.
And suppose the 'qualified counseling' sessions reveal that the woman still wants to terminate a pregnancy and does not consent to continuing the pregnancy, what should happen then?0 -
And suppose the 'qualified counseling' sessions reveal that the woman still wants to terminate a pregnancy and does not consent to continuing the pregnancy, what should happen then?
Absolam has been quite clear that he supports her right to travel to avail of services legally available in England.0 -
Zubeneschamali wrote: »Absolam has been quite clear that he supports her right to travel to avail of services legally available in England.
Travelling to another country is easier said than done.0 -
Women are vessels in Ireland. So are 14 year old children pregnant as a result of rape. Our law states this - the life of a zygote is the same as the life of a born raped child who talks about throwing herself in front of a train because she is pregnant with a rapist's child. If my child was 14, pregnant as a result of rape, and living in Ireland she would have no right to terminate the pregnancy in Ireland and in 1992 the state, via the attorney general, might have sought to prevent my raped, suicidal, pregnant child from traveling to terminate her pregnancy. Ms X is still only in her 30s - I'm in a similar age bracket. I hope she's living a happy life now.
I'm rather glad I can't understand the mindset that places a woman or girl's willingness and/or ability to carry a pregnancy to term, go through childbirth and become a mother way, way down the list of Things That Are Important When We Talk About Pregnancy.0 -
So, if Bannasidhe introduces the subject of suicide into an abortion discussion, I shouldn't be allowed an opinion? Or I should only have the opinion you express for me? I think I'll stick to deciding for myself, thanks.
Remind Bannaside where she did this please.
My recollection is I said women die.
I did not say by suicide.
In fact in the context of my posts it is very clear I was referring to unsafe abortion methods.
Yes - that elephant in the room is still being ignored.0 -
iwantmydinner wrote: »I'm rather glad I can't understand the mindset that places a woman or girl's willingness and/or ability to carry a pregnancy to term, go through childbirth and become a mother way, way down the list of Things That Are Important When We Talk About Pregnancy.
The most baffling thing about the pro life position of Remain Pregnant Despite Any Other Options is that the actual process of pregnancy is never seen as an issue. Every single woman who goes through pregnancy will say that it is not a walk in the park, and that's before you get to the actual process of giving birth. The mildest pregnancy symptoms can be an irritant, and the process of giving birth, even when straightforward, can have long term consequences. It's almost as if they think pregnancy has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the women going though it, like the foetus in their uteruses just makes no difference to them one way or the other, and birth is nothing to worry about. I don't understand this lack of empathy at all - I can't understand how those who oppose abortion and waffle about adoptions - Adoption, what's that? Said no woman with a crisis pregnancy ever - as a solution to every single unwanted pregnancy, as though its no trouble at all to gestate a birth a foetus so someone else can have a baby.0 -
I don't recall saying pregnant women were mentally ill; counselling can be of use to people who aren't mentally ill, but are, for instance, feeling overwhelmed by their problems.Bannasidhe wrote: »If a person is feeling suicidal as they are overwhelmed by debt - do you think they are mentally ill or do you think removing the cause - i.e. debt - will solve the problem?
I think that would be a good idea. It would be great if it could pay off their debts and remove the cause of the problem, but I have a feeling that paying for that might not be a popular decision. Still, MABS do a great job in helping people come to terms with their problems and showing them how to cope with them, and counselling couldn't hurt with that.Bannasidhe wrote: »Should MABS provide a counselling service?
No doubt about that. It also removes life from the unborn that we constitutionally protected, so as solutions go, it's a bit tricky. Luckily, we have a process for determining when that should happen.Bannasidhe wrote: »If a woman is feeling her life is untenable due to being pregnant then terminating the pregnancy removes the cause.
I never even mentioned it?Bannasidhe wrote: »BTW - I did not say every one who dies due to an unwanted pregnancy commits sucicide - that is a tangent you went down all by yourself.
This being the fourth time; I understand and can face the reality that some people will commit illegal acts despite the fact that they are illegal. This is not a good reason to make those acts legal.Bannasidhe wrote: »Perhaps you cannot face the reality that women chose unsafe methods to terminate a pregnancy because they want to live without having to carry a child to term. They want their life to return to as it was before they got pregnant - if a wire hanger or a drug overdose seems the only way to regain their life then a wire hanger or a drugs overdose is what they will do.
Gosh I have ilk now? How cosy. I should point out though, that someone killing themselves because they are not allowed to kill someone else really doesn't diminish the value placed on life by those that prevent them.Bannasidhe wrote: »You and your ilk will continue to let them die from infections etc while claiming to value life.
Well, whilst I appreciate you making an effort to tell me my values, and their degrees, I think I'll decide for myself thanks.Bannasidhe wrote: »No. you do not value life. You do not value their lives one little bit. They shall be sacrificed on the alter of your 'opinion'.
Oh.. are we doing the sexist thing now? Just pretend I said I was all woman right at the start of this, it'll save you the effort.Bannasidhe wrote: »Gosh.. how selfish of women to not want to carry a foetus inside them for 9 months. No man would ever be so selfish. We must punish this selfish women... oh... WE DO.0 -
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