Abortion Discussion

aloyisious

Re Gerry Edwards letter, that makes the law on abortions here seem equal to the definition of "Cruel and Unusual Punishments", a sick use of legislation to further the pain and suffering presumptive parents are forced to undergo.

The Black Oil

Load up on ethos and bring your friends...

28064212

The Black Oil wrote: »

Load up on ethos and bring your friends...

I thought half their argument was that abortions are already carried out here when necessary. Now he's saying that they'll never be carried out, even if it's medically necessary to save the life of the woman?

aloyisious

IMO, if the Hospital Board back's up what that board member say's on it's ethos by firing any doctor who save's a woman-patient's life by carrying out a termination or abortion, or refuses to comply with state law on the right to life of the mother, then the hospital should have it's right and/or licence to operate as a Maternity Hospital rescinded.

Not all abortions or terminations result in the foetus being denied life. The doctor will try to save both of his/her patients within his care, while the priest's point of view indicate's that he follow's an ethos that declares the woman's life matter's less than the foetus in her womb (practicality over theory).

It leave's me wondering how the board would face the conundrum of dealing with an employee-doctor who fulfilled both an abortion need to save the woman from death and also brought the foetus from her womb to a live-birth successfully. Would it sack him/her for ignoring the hospital ethos?

Edit/add-on of (or refuses to comply with state law on the right to life of the mother,) in para 1.

kylith

“we participate in the healing ministry of Jesus Christ”, except if you're gravely ill during pregnancy apparently, then you can suffer and die for all this lot care. Healing ministry, my arse.

lazygal

What did Jesus have to say about life saving treatment, or indeed any medical treatment?

rainbow kirby

This guy has form - was involved in stopping a lung cancer drug trial because it would have required women to use contraception.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/three-who-stopped-the-cancer-tests-25960150.html

lazygal

rainbow kirby wrote: »

This guy has form - was involved in stopping a lung cancer drug trial because it would have required women to use contraception.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/three-who-stopped-the-cancer-tests-25960150.html

I remember that. Which is why I wouldn't want to be treated by the Mater. St Vincent's hospital has said it will comply with the laws of the land, so bear that in mind people! This guy won't ever have to have an abortion, or be involved in making the decision like the partners of women who might need one. I was glad to hear Peter Boylan rubbishing this nonsense on Newstalk this morning. He also said he was brought in by the archbishop when he was master to be told Holles St should be offering a more liberal tubal ligation service, to which his attitude was 'Whatever dude, women need the procedure'. Yay him.

MrPudding

Sr Eugene Nolan wrote:

[the legislation] is being imposed on us.

Can anyone point put some legislation that is not imposed on the people it applies to?

MrP

robindch

MrPudding wrote: »

Can anyone point put some legislation that is not imposed on the people it applies to?

The legislation regarding criminal conspiracy as it applies to the catholic bishops' management of pedophiles within church ranks?

lazygal

St Eugene is free to move to an area of work that won't involve facilitating constitutional rights for pregnant women if the imposition is too much for her.

Akrasia

rainbow kirby wrote: »

This guy has form - was involved in stopping a lung cancer drug trial because it would have required women to use contraception.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/three-who-stopped-the-cancer-tests-25960150.html

What an absolute Ass

UDP

Just sent the guy an email letting him know my opinion on the matter (pun not intended). Am I allowed to post his email address here considering his email address and phone number is available publicly on the donnybrookparish.ie website?

lazygal

UDP wrote: »

Just sent the guy an email letting him know my opinion on the matter (pun not intended). Am I allowed to post his email address here considering his email address and phone number is available publicly on the donnybrookparish.ie website?

What would Jesus do?

robindch

UDP wrote: »

Am I allowed to post his email address here [...]

Nope. However, you can post a link to his own website where his contact details are listed.

swampgas

The Black Oil wrote: »

Load up on ethos and bring your friends...

Fr Doran, who sits on the board of governors and the board of directors of the Mater, said it was “incumbent on the hospital to consider its position on the Act . . . The Mater can’t carry out abortions because it goes against its ethos. I would be very concerned that the Minister [for Health, James Reilly] sees fit to make it impossible for hospitals to have their own ethos.
“The issue is broader than just abortion. What’s happening is the Minister is saying hospitals are not entitled to have an ethos.”

Hospitals should absolutely NOT be allowed to have their own "ethos"!

State provided institutions such as hospitals should have no ethos beyond that of the state itself. A modern hospital should be run according to medical best practice and the law of the land - end of story. Allowing a tiny number of clergy to interfere in medical treatments provided to society at large is wrong, wrong, wrong.

MrPudding

robindch wrote: »

The legislation regarding criminal conspiracy as it applies to the catholic bishops' management of pedophiles within church ranks?

Touché.

MrP

UDP

swampgas wrote: »

Hospitals should absolutely NOT be allowed to have their own "ethos"!

State provided institutions such as hospitals should have no ethos beyond that of the state itself. A modern hospital should be run according to medical best practice and the law of the land - end of story. Allowing a tiny number of clergy to interfere in medical treatments provided to society at large is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Kevin Doran thinks that european law says the hospital is allowed to have its catholic ethos that forbids abortions and the government have no right to legislate against that thus he thinks that european law invalidates the recently passed act.

kylith

Withdraw their funding. If they won't abide by the law of the land they don't get money from the public purse.

Of course the problem there is that it's the general public who'll suffer, and the religious would pull the martyr/persecution card.

Delirium

swampgas wrote: »

Hospitals should absolutely NOT be allowed to have their own "ethos"!

State provided institutions such as hospitals should have no ethos beyond that of the state itself. A modern hospital should be run according to medical best practice and the law of the land - end of story. Allowing a tiny number of clergy to interfere in medical treatments provided to society at large is wrong, wrong, wrong.

+1

Imagine a hospital refusing to carry out blood transfusions because of their ethos. A hospital should be a place of medicine without restrictions being imposed by relgious groups.

shruikan2553

They must really hate the government for imposing their laws on them. No touching children, no treating women as slaves. Someone should tell the government that they are not to be held down by our mortal laws but still receive the benefits.

Cabaal

So the argument used by the religious people is a fetus is a person....well not accordingly to the catholic church even if its 7 months old (when it suits them)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/24/fetuses-not-people-catholic-hospital-says-in-court-case/1863013/

Cabaal

koth wrote: »

+1

Imagine a hospital refusing to carry out blood transfusions because of their ethos. A hospital should be a place of medicine without restrictions being imposed by relgious groups.

Thats the thought I had,
Or what about if the hospital tomorrow decided not to admit people of other faiths anymore and only treat Catholics.

The priest in question is frankly insane, he's one of the people that previously was against cancer treatment for women

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/three-who-stopped-the-cancer-tests-25960150.html

shruikan2553

Cabaal wrote: »

So the argument used by the religious people is a fetus is a person....well not accordingly to the catholic church even if its 7 months old (when it suits them)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/24/fetuses-not-people-catholic-hospital-says-in-court-case/1863013/

This was after the very same hospital (or maybe it was just part of their group) tried to have unborn fetuses seen as people in court. Up until recently they didnt even care once it was born until the baby was baptised.

Dont understand this medicine with a Christian ethos stuff, I never saw the part of the bible that said "And the lord said unto him "thy take 2 antibiotics with food when the sun sets and rises and if thy state worsens thou shalt return to me""

lazygal

shruikan2553 wrote: »

This was after the very same hospital (or maybe it was just part of their group) tried to have unborn fetuses seen as people in court. Up until recently they didnt even care once it was born until the baby was baptised.

Dont understand this medicine with a Christian ethos stuff, I never saw the part of the bible that said "And the lord said unto him "thy take 2 antibiotics with food when the sun sets and rises and if thy state worsens thou shalt return to me""

I think that's from Bull****ters 2:13, if I recall my bible verses correctly. Which I may not.

Beruthiel

While my euro taxes are funding the Mater Hospital I require Kevin Doran to stick to the Governments ethos with regards to hospitals.
I'll be dropping them a note on my thoughts.
Mater.ie.

UDP

Beruthiel wrote: »

While my euro taxes are funding the Mater Hospital I require Kevin Doran to stick to the Governments ethos with regards to hospitals.
I'll be dropping them a note on my thoughts.
Mater.ie.

You can get him on the email address that is listed here:
http://www.donnybrookparish.ie/parish-contacts.html

He responded to me and said that the minister is wrong and that the hospital has a right under european legislation to maintain a catholic ethos thus as a catholic hospital they could not perform abortions.

Does anyone know if he is correct?

Beruthiel

UDP wrote: »

He responded to me and said that the minister is wrong and that the hospital has a right under european legislation to maintain a catholic ethos

If it were a privately run hospital, I could understand that.
But one run with public funds? I can't believe the EU would condone that!

Delirium

Beruthiel wrote: »

If it were a privately run hospital, I could understand that.
But one run with public funds? I can't believe the EU would condone that!

Found the following (bear in mind it's a pro-life site):

The European Court of Human Rights has repeatedly affirmed that institutions, such as hospitals, hold a legitimate interest in being consistent with their moral or ethical ethos, and may for example forbid their staff not only to practice but also to promote abortion.

In the case of ROMMELFANGE v. the Federal Republic of Germany[1] the European Commission on Human Rights ruled that a hospital is entitled to restrict its staff from advocating in favour of abortion. In this case, the Commission ruled that the hospital was entitled to dismiss Dr Rommelfange, because he took public standings contrary to the ethical positions of his employer. Therefore, a hospital is naturally entitled to hold ethical positions on sensitive practices. This ruling applies to any kind of hospitals, both private and public, since public hospitals are not necessarily devoid of ethical references.

More recently, in the case LOMBARDI VALLAURI v. Italy[2], the Court confirmed the ROMMELFANGE case law and applied the article 4 of the Directive 78/2000/CE5 (§78), considering, in the context of a Catholic institution, that an institution with a moral ethos is entitled to preserve its ethos, even if it requires limiting rights and freedoms of other people.

robindch

UDP wrote: »

He responded to me and said that the minister is wrong and that the hospital has a right under european legislation to maintain a catholic ethos thus as a catholic hospital they could not perform abortions.

I'd thank him for his reply, then ask him to say what EU legislation guarantees it.

So far as I'm aware, hospitals and EU law intersect to permit all EU citizens the right to avail of health services in other member states (subject to t's and c's), and to guarantee the untrammeled operation of the free market more generally. There's nothing, so far as I'm aware, about guaranteeing the "right" of religious men to instruct state-funded hospitals to ignore Irish law.