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Abortion Discussion

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    #7112
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Cora Sherlock is on. Let the nonsense commence.


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    #7113
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,513 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    lazygal wrote: »
    Cora Sherlock is on. Let the nonsense commence.

    I missed this last night, was anything interesting/worth repeating said on it?


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    #7114
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I missed this last night, was anything interesting/worth repeating said on it?
    Nope. She had a go at the IFPA telling women to order abortion pills and parroted the line about women deserving better and having 'all the options' presented to them.
    Given that the options when you're pregnant are
    1) remain pregnant
    2) end the pregnancy
    I'm not sure what her point is.


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    #7115
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,513 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    And - as usual - did nobody ask her to name the other choices she had in mind?


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    #7116
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    volchitsa wrote: »
    And - as usual - did nobody ask her to name the other choices she had in mind?

    Or whether one of the two choices should be denied to all women in Ireland entirely by preventing them from exercising that choice in another jurisdiction.
    'All women must remain pregnant regardless of their wishes' isn't a soundbite that goes down too well.
    When people like her refer to 'counselling' and 'caring for women' and 'presenting all the options' what is their response to a woman who, after all that, still wants to end a pregnancy? Suck it up hon, you can't have an abortion no matter what.


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    #7117
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,939 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Cora must have been there fantasising about throwing the IFPA's spokesperson in a Magdalene Laundry.


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    #7118
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,685 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    The part of this referring to women in this might make her happy, though it's qualified by the word "known". The other part referring to pregnant teen girls and birth could have one or more factors behind the figure and might not be so:

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/report-number-of-known-irish-women-travelling-to-uk-for-abortions-falls-again-647553.html


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    #7119
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    lazygal wrote: »
    Given that the options when you're pregnant are
    1) remain pregnant
    2) end the pregnancy
    I'm not sure what her point is.
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest she may be aware that if someone has a choice between remaining pregnant and not remaining pregnant, there are only two options. Since she doesn't see ending the pregnancy as an option to be chosen, she's probably not actually talking about that particular choice at all?
    volchitsa wrote: »
    And - as usual - did nobody ask her to name the other choices she had in mind?
    My guess would be they were reasonably aware that she was talking about options post birth rather than pre birth, so (as usual) felt they would likely look silly at best, and deliberately misconstruing at worst, if they asked.
    lazygal wrote: »
    When people like her refer to 'counselling' and 'caring for women' and 'presenting all the options' what is their response to a woman who, after all that, still wants to end a pregnancy? Suck it up hon, you can't have an abortion no matter what.
    I think it's likely that when 'people like her' refer to 'counselling' and 'caring for women' and 'presenting all the options' they're talking about providing assistance to prospective mothers in preparing for birth, and presenting options for when the child is born, since there are likely to be options open to a mother at that point, such as adoption, fostering, family assistance, lone parenting etc etc depending on the mothers circumstances and preferences.


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    #7120
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,513 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Absolam wrote: »
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest she may be aware that if someone has a choice between remaining pregnant and not remaining pregnant, there are only two options. Since she doesn't see ending the pregnancy as an option to be chosen, she's probably not actually talking about that particular choice at all?

    My guess would be they were reasonably aware that she was talking about options post birth rather than pre birth, so (as usual) felt they would likely look silly at best, and deliberately misconstruing at worst, if they asked.

    I think it's likely that when 'people like her' refer to 'counselling' and 'caring for women' and 'presenting all the options' they're talking about providing assistance to prospective mothers in preparing for birth, and presenting options for when the child is born, since there are likely to be options open to a mother at that point, such as adoption, fostering, family assistance, lone parenting etc etc depending on the mothers circumstances and preferences.

    And do you think that at present women don't know this, nor systematically have this presented to them as being the choices available to them?

    If you have any doubts, I can only suggest you have a look at the front page of the IFPA site for example. Adoption is clearly presented as being one of the options open to women.


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    #7121
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    volchitsa wrote: »
    And do you think that at present women don't know this, nor systematically have this presented to them as being the choices available to them? If you have any doubts, I can only suggest you have a look at the front page of the IFPA site for example. Adoption is clearly presented as being one of the options open to women.
    So.... she ought not to talk about the options available because women already know what they are?


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    #7122
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Absolam wrote: »
    So.... she ought not to talk about the options available because women already know what they are?

    Pregnancy counselling services have to discuss adoption even if the woman has ruled it out. That's the law. The option is always there, the fact so few are willing to take it says a lot. Adoption is a perfectly valid choice for an unwanted baby, not so much for an unwanted pregnancy.


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    #7123
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,513 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Absolam wrote: »
    So.... she ought not to talk about the options available because women already know what they are?

    No, but she ought not to present this as being something that isn't being done, when it already is.
    "Keep on keeping on" is her solution apparently - but she shouldn't be so dishonest as to present that as something new that needs to be put in place.


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    #7124
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,513 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Pregnancy counselling services have to discuss adoption even if the woman has ruled it out. That's the law.

    Wasn't that what Miss Y said about why she refused to go back to the IFPA counselling sessions? They continued to suggest continuing the pregnancy with a view to adoption, and that was something she couldn't bear to even hear. So she stopped going to the counsellor, and was left with nowhere to turn to.


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    #7125
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    volchitsa wrote: »
    No, but she ought not to present this as being something that isn't being done, when it already is.
    "Keep on keeping on" is her solution apparently - but she shouldn't be so dishonest as to present that as something new that needs to be put in place.
    Is she presenting it as something new that needs to be put in place, or something that isn't being done enough, or even something that can be done better though?
    I think it is fair to say that she is probably aware that various options are presented to pregnant women at various times, don't you? So it seems dishonest to pretend that when she talks about the options available, she's presenting them as something new that needs to be put in place. Rather than options that are available.


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    #7126
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    "Adoption, what's that?"
    Said no pregnant woman ever.


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    #7127
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    lazygal wrote: »
    "Adoption, what's that?"
    Said no pregnant woman ever.
    But an overwhelming number were mystified when they heard the word abortion?


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    #7128
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Absolam wrote: »
    But an overwhelming number were mystified when they heard the word abortion?

    Why would you want to discuss adoption when you're looking for information on abortion?


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    #7129
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    lazygal wrote: »
    Why would you want to discuss adoption when you're looking for information on abortion?
    Why would you look for information on abortion when you're discussing post birth options?


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    #7130
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Absolam wrote: »
    Why would you look for information on abortion when you're discussing post birth options?

    I don't think I referred to post birth options did I? I referred to pregnant women. Who are looking for information on abortion, not adoption. Pregnant women seeking information during pregnancy who don't wish to continue being pregnant don't need post birth information because they don't want to give birth.


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    #7131
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,513 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Absolam wrote: »
    Is she presenting it as something new that needs to be put in place, or something that isn't being done enough, or even something that can be done better though?
    I think it is fair to say that she is probably aware that various options are presented to pregnant women at various times, don't you? So it seems dishonest to pretend that when she talks about the options available, she's presenting them as something new that needs to be put in place. Rather than options that are available.

    Well apparently she isn't satisfied with how it is presented at the moment.

    Do you think that if only the idea of adoption could be presented in a more attractive way to women facing a crisis pregnancy, so many of them might decide to go for it that there would be a significant drop in numbers going to the UK for abortions?

    Have you any practical suggestions as to how that might be achieved? A gym voucher, for getting your figure back after the birth? A week in the sun, to cheer you up and help you forget you gave your baby away to strangers?


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    #7132
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    lazygal wrote: »
    I don't think I referred to post birth options did I? I referred to pregnant women. Who are looking for information on abortion, not adoption. Pregnant women seeking information during pregnancy who don't wish to continue being pregnant don't need post birth information because they don't want to give birth.
    Nope, but I don't think you referred to seeking information on abortion either. You referred to Cora Sherlock talking about women having 'all the options' presented to them, and I said I think she was likely to be talking about post birth options, as in her opinion there are no pre birth options. It was on the last page.


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    #7133
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Well apparently she isn't satisfied with how it is presented at the moment.

    Do you think that if only the idea of adoption could be presented in a more attractive way to women facing a crisis pregnancy, so many of them might decide to go for it that there would be a significant drop in numbers going to the UK for abortions?

    Have you any practical suggestions as to how that might be achieved? A gym voucher, for getting your figure back after the birth? A week in the sun, to cheer you up and help you forget you gave your baby away to strangers?
    Maybe free training in laundry services?


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    #7134
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,513 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Absolam wrote: »
    Nope, but I don't think you referred to seeking information on abortion either. You referred to Cora Sherlock talking about women having 'all the options' presented to them, and I said I think she was likely to be talking about post birth options, as in her opinion there are no pre birth options. It was on the last page.

    But since these options already are presented to women with a crisis pregnancy at the IFPA, what more is she suggesting can be done?


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    #7135
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,513 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    lazygal wrote: »
    Maybe free training in laundry services?

    Good point. That worked for several generations, didn't it?


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    #7136
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Absolam wrote: »
    Nope, but I don't think you referred to seeking information on abortion either. You referred to Cora Sherlock talking about women having 'all the options' presented to them, and I said I think she was likely to be talking about post birth options, as in her opinion there are no pre birth options. It was on the last page.

    Do you know that Cora Sherlock was only referring to post birth options? The discussion on Prime Time concerned prebirth options such as the abortion pill, on which she clearly had strong opinions. Did Cora Sherlock say she thought only post birth options should be discussed? Or are you surmising that to be her view?


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    #7137
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Well apparently she isn't satisfied with how it is presented at the moment.
    What did she say that leads you to that conclusion? And.... should she be satisfied with how post birth options are presented?
    volchitsa wrote: »
    Do you think that if only the idea of adoption could be presented in a more attractive way to women facing a crisis pregnancy, so many of them might decide to go for it that there would be a significant drop in numbers going to the UK for abortions?
    Not really, do you? I do think that the more quality information there is available to people, the better informed their decisions are likely to be. I don't know why you might want to curtail someones efforts to make more/better information available to people.
    volchitsa wrote: »
    Have you any practical suggestions as to how that might be achieved? A gym voucher, for getting your figure back after the birth? A week in the sun, to cheer you up and help you forget you gave your baby away to strangers?
    I really don't, but I think that's because it's your idea to incentivise option choices, rather than mine.
    volchitsa wrote: »
    But since these options already are presented to women with a crisis pregnancy at the IFPA, what more is she suggesting can be done?
    As far as I can tell, she was saying that there is something better than abortion for women, that we should be looking after women, and that we should be having a full debate on abortion. That's pretty much the sum of her statements, and given her background, I don't think anyone would deny that she thinks almost anything is better than abortion for women. She didn't seem to be suggesting that IFPA should be presenting more?


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    #7138
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    lazygal wrote: »
    Do you know that Cora Sherlock was only referring to post birth options? The discussion on Prime Time concerned prebirth options such as the abortion pill, on which she clearly had strong opinions. Did Cora Sherlock say she thought only post birth options should be discussed? Or are you surmising that to be her view?
    I didn't hear her saying that only post birth options should be discussed, nor did I suggest that she tried to restrict the discussion to those options. What I said was that she was likely to be talking about post birth options, as in her opinion there are no pre birth options. Of course I am surmising that it is her opinion that abortion is not an option; I'm sure someone will happily point it out if I'm wrong.


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    #7139
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,685 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Absolam wrote: »
    Is she presenting it as something new that needs to be put in place, or something that isn't being done enough, or even something that can be done better though?
    I think it is fair to say that she is probably aware that various options are presented to pregnant women at various times, don't you? So it seems dishonest to pretend that when she talks about the options available, she's presenting them as something new that needs to be put in place. Rather than options that are available.

    One might safely presume that you are correct in para two. Due to Cora's position on abortion, the options list she presents to pregnant women is shorter than the IFPA list. Cora is not being candid when it comes to discussing abortion, just disingenuous to the point of stupidity. She refuses to see that the wool is worn bare on the eye-cap. Re Para one, Cora won't accept that women are making their own choices now outside her reference page, and she can't accept her advice being ignored. Cora is not presenting anything new. I will happily point out that your surmising is probably NOT incorrect. She probably think's that women who have abortions are bound for eternal hellfire, but won't reveal that belief for fear of being laughed out of court.


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    #7140
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Absolam wrote: »
    But an overwhelming number were mystified when they heard the word abortion?

    Many are when they hear of the abortion pills.

    For a piece on our national broadcaster it was very scaremongering and did not furnish any facts about the pills.

    There is a big knowledge gap about them, they have been legal in France from 1988 and in the USA from 2000. They are prescribed only up to the first 9 weeks of a pregnancy.

    So if Miss Y had of been in the USA, France, Germany, Italy or Spain and discovered she was pregnant and did not want to be at 8 weeks she could have after counselling been administered the abortion pills.

    Hell Miss X could have also been administered them if she was in France back in 1992.

    The package of pills which Women on Web send to women are the same dose and make as those used by BPAS in the UK for abortion and Miscarriage management.

    They are used later in a pregnancy, when miscarriage is unavoidable to hasten the end of the pregnancy instead of forcing women to wait for untold hours until there is not fetal heartbeat or there is an immediate risk to the woman's life. But due to the 8th amendment they can't be administered for such purposes by drs here, this is untenable.

    Suppression of information about the abortion pills is rife here due to people not wanting to fall foul of the 1995 abortion information law.


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    #7141
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Morag wrote: »
    Many are when they hear of the abortion pills.
    So, we should stop making information about adoption available so we can make information about a particular method of abortion available instead? What exactly is wrong with allowing all information to be available?
    Morag wrote: »
    For a piece on our national broadcaster it was very scaremongering and did not furnish any facts about the pills.
    What scares exactly did you think it mongered? I don't think it was unreasonable to point out that buying prescription grade medication over the internet (even it is 'prescribed' to you by a doctor you've never met in Guyana) may be a risky undertaking.
    Morag wrote: »
    There is a big knowledge gap about them, they have been legal in France from 1988 and in the USA from 2000. They are prescribed only up to the first 9 weeks of a pregnancy.
    I don't think there was a suggestion in the program that information (which you seem to have no problem obtaining) about the pills ought to be suppressed in some way?
    Morag wrote: »
    So if Miss Y had of been in the USA, France, Germany, Italy or Spain and discovered she was pregnant and did not want to be at 8 weeks she could have after counselling been administered the abortion pills.
    As she could have availed of other abortion options which are legal in those countries but not in this country. What's the difference?
    Morag wrote: »
    Hell Miss X could have also been administered them if she was in France back in 1992.
    As above. She could also have had an abortion whilst she was England. Again, I don't see that there's a new argument being made?
    Morag wrote: »
    The package of pills which Women on Web send to women are the same dose and make as those used by BPAS in the UK for abortion and Miscarriage management.
    I'm sure you must mean used by Doctors working with BPAS in the UK, who meet and assess their patients before prescribing the package of pills, as a treatment which they are then accountable (and liable) for?
    Morag wrote: »
    They are used later in a pregnancy, when miscarriage is unavoidable to hasten the end of the pregnancy instead of forcing women to wait for untold hours until there is not fetal heartbeat or there is an immediate risk to the woman's life. But due to the 8th amendment they can't be administered for such purposes by drs here, this is untenable.
    So, it seems from what you say not everyone is mystifed when they hear of abortion pills, anyway. Do you think you have substantially better access to information than the majority of people? But to your point, they (and other treatments) can't be administered for such purposes because it is not legal to terminate the life of an unborn child unless the prospective mothers life is endangered by the life of the child.
    Morag wrote: »
    Suppression of information about the abortion pills is rife here due to people not wanting to fall foul of the 1995 abortion information law.
    Who exactly has suppressed information about them? You seem reasonably well informed about them, and Dr Coulter Smith the Master of the Rotunda spoke quite knowledgeably and openly about them (and their legal usage in Ireland) on the program. Nor is information regarding the pills subject to any greater restriction than other methods of abortion, so I think you're being somewhat misleading by claiming that 'suppression of information about the abortion pills is rife here'.


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