Abortion Discussion

Genghiz Cohen

JimiTime wrote: »

The desire is not to vilify, and say, 'You evil woman'.

I'm not racist, but...

JimiTime

Obliq wrote: »

The emotional trauma that YOU feel about abortion is not to be inflicted on anyone else. Expecting or wanting people who have had abortions to change their views through shame is a prime example of emotional manipulation, and is therefore shameful in my eyes.

You are of course welcome to your view. Like I said, I merely hope that people come to realise the reality. The site I linked to, IMO, is quite a powerful message to those who are for or have had abortions. It strips away all the fightings, and terminology arguments, and simply presents the PEOPLE who would normally have been dead had the abortion procedure managed to kill them.

I accept that you have your views and you can keep them. I see it as pointless (and wrong) to try and change you. It's unfortunate that you don't give me, or others the same respect.

I cannot in good conscience accept a regime that kills growing humans in utero, and I hope that can be appreciated. Think about it, if you believed that these lives had intrinsic value, could you really stand idly by while they were snuffed out?

As for the PEOPLE you mention - this is your first moot point. We are all here by happy accident/chance. All this testimony brings home to me is that it would be a difficult thing to know that your mother wished and tried to end the pregnancy that produced you. With these very few exceptions, I can safely say that all other aborted fetuses know nothing about it, as they are dead.

Indeed, those lives on the end of 'successful' abortions never had a voice. Also, there is nothing accidental about wilfully killing the unborn. The only accident in the lives of the people on the site, is the rather fortunate one that meant they evaded the death that their mothers/parents had desired for them.

You are making a point here that is entirely irrelevant. Making up a point, actually. The two unique children I look at and love every day are the one's I decided to give birth to

And they were the same children before they were born.

You can't retrospectively look at those kids and say "if I had killed" because you didn't.

Of course you can. I have often looked at my second child (The surprise, 'Irish twin' ) and thought, 'Just imagine if we had been so inclined, and aborted her. She would have simply been erased from life. Never to be born again. She would not even be a memory. The unique little girl, who started to build when that sperm met that egg would have been snuffed out.'

Clearly. And neither did I. It's another moot point, and one I might just as well turn to every time I menstruate - "Woah, ANOTHER potential child down the drain - imagine how much I would have loved him/her".

An egg is an egg, a sperm a sperm. A fertilised egg however, is the beginning of the growth of a unique human life.

Bannasidhe

JimiTime wrote: »

You are of course welcome to your view. Like I said, I merely hope that people come to realise the reality. The site I linked to, IMO, is quite a powerful message to those who are for or have had abortions. It strips away all the fightings, and terminology arguments, and simply presents the PEOPLE who would normally have been dead had the abortion procedure managed to kill them.



I cannot in good conscience accept a regime that kills growing humans in utero, and I hope that can be appreciated. Think about it, if you believed that these lives had intrinsic value, could you really stand idly by while they were snuffed out?



Indeed, those lives on the end of 'successful' abortions never had a voice. Also, there is nothing accidental about wilfully killing the unborn. The only accident in the lives of the people on the site, is the rather fortunate one that meant they evaded the death that their mothers/parents had desired for them.


And they were the same children before they were born.


Of course you can. I have often looked at my second child (The surprise, 'Irish twin' ) and thought, 'Just imagine if we had been so inclined, and aborted her. She would have simply been erased from life. Never to be born again. She would not even be a memory. The unique little girl, who started to build when that sperm met that egg would have been snuffed out.'



An egg is an egg, a sperm a sperm. A fertilised egg however, is the beginning of the growth of a unique human life.

Yet you are strangely silent about us funding the training of people whose job may require them to end many unique human lives in 'foreign fields'.

9,438 full-time military personnel.
5,220 Reserve personnel.

Budget of over 1 bn euro a year.

If a member of the Irish military kills a unique human being in the course of his/her duties you will have helped pay that 'killers' wages, funded the training which taught them how to kill and helped pay for the weapons they used to kill a unique human being.
Shame on you Jimi if you are not withholding your taxes as you believe every life is sacred and we have no business paying for State sanctioned killing. SHAME.

JimiTime

Obliq wrote: »

19 minutes of your time Jimi. You might learn something.

Look at what I have posted. Does that sound like the shame I talked about? The shame I talked about is about a heavy remorse and regret. It is a very personal thing. In the context of this thread, its about a 'What have I done' moment, rather than, 'Oh no, what must other people think of me moment'.

lazygal

What about women who feel no shame, such as those who decided to terminate a pregnancy on the grounds of fatal foetal abnormality? Is there something wrong with not feeling shame about one's decisions when one has no regrets whatsoever?

Bannasidhe

JimiTime wrote: »

Look at what I have posted. Does that sound like the shame I talked about? The shame I talked about is about a heavy remorse and regret. It is a very personal thing. In the context of this thread, its about a 'What have I done' moment, rather than, 'Oh no, what must other people think of me moment'.

Hate to tell you this Jimi - but what a lot of women feel is relief.
But you want them to spend the rest of their life guilt ridden and they should be forced to feel this way - so much for 'it is a personal thing.'

Obliq

JimiTime wrote: »

Look at what I have posted. Does that sound like the shame I talked about? The shame I talked about is about a heavy remorse and regret. It is a very personal thing. In the context of this thread, its about a 'What have I done' moment, rather than, 'Oh no, what must other people think of me moment'.

You have been consistently and judgmentally pointing the finger of shame, which is EXACTLY what this woman is talking about. It is you who wish others to feel shamed - whether they do or not is beside the point. As Bannasidhe rightly points out, wishing remorse and regret on someone by shaming is an act of bullying.

JimiTime

Obliq wrote: »

You have been consistently and judgmentally pointing the finger of shame, which is EXACTLY what this woman is talking about. It is you who wish others to feel shamed - whether they do or not is beside the point. As Bannasidhe rightly points out, wishing remorse and regret on someone by shaming is an act of bullying.

Other peoples rhetoric aside. Shame is something I desire to arise in myself when I have done wrong, and I use it to provoke change in me. Shamelessness is the enemy IMO. So when I talk of shame in the context of abortion, I talk of a shame that arises with the realisation of wrongdoing, rather than the pressures of society. In the context of the site I posted, I hope that the testimony of the people who survived abortion, will show what could have been destroyed in their cases, and IS destroyed in 'successful' abortions. I'm hoping for a realisation, a dawning within people. In this shame, I hope it provokes them to change, just as my shame at my wrongdoings, provoke me.

shruikan2553

JimiTime wrote: »

An egg is an egg, a sperm a sperm. A fertilised egg however, is the beginning of the growth of a unique human life.

But they have the potential to become life! Now I feel shame for destroying thousands of potential children. I hope you are happy with what you've done while I cry in the corner of the genocide I committed while watch busty back door entry 3

Cabaal

JimiTime,
I know its uncomfortable for you to actually answer a question that has been put to you,

But can you please outline the types of support you'd like put in place in answer to my previous post

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85892311&postcount=739

Pherekydes

JimiTime wrote: »

Other peoples rhetoric aside. Shame is something I desire to arise in myself when I have done wrong...

The great (wrong) assumption you make is that all people recognise the same "wrongs" you do.

swampgas

JimiTime wrote: »

Shame is something I desire to arise in myself when I have done wrong, and I use it to provoke change in me. Shamelessness is the enemy IMO. So when I talk of shame in the context of abortion, I talk of a shame that arises with the realisation of wrongdoing, rather than the pressures of society. In the context of the site I posted, I hope that the testimony of the people who survived abortion, will show what could have been destroyed in their cases, and IS destroyed in 'successful' abortions. I'm hoping for a realisation, a dawning within people. In this shame, I hope it provokes them to change, just as my shame at my wrongdoings, provoke me.

There is a huge difference between feeling bad about your own misdeeds and feeling the need to make others feel bad about things they think are okay.

If you were to stick to feeling shame at your own actions, and left others to judge for themselves what to feel bad about, that would be a step forward.

That's not to say that you can't argue that you think something is wrong, but going beyond that to insist that others should feel shame and guilt when you have failed to convince them of the merits of your argument feels a little bit oppressive.

JimiTime

Pherekydes wrote: »

The great (wrong) assumption you make is that all people recognise the same "wrongs" you do.

I certainly do hope people see abortion as wrong, yes. I think the abortion survivors network site sends quite a powerful message, and I do indeed hope that it provokes people to change how they view abortion.

JimiTime

swampgas wrote: »

There is a huge difference between feeling bad about your own misdeeds and feeling the need to make others feel bad about things they think are okay.

If you were to stick to feeling shame at your own actions, and left others to judge for themselves what to feel bad about, that would be a step forward.

That's not to say that you can't argue that you think something is wrong, but going beyond that to insist that others should feel shame and guilt when you have failed to convince them of the merits of your argument feels a little bit oppressive.

I asked people to look at a site containing the testimonies of abortion survivors, in the hope that some would be moved to change I.E. Change to being anti-abortion. Hardly oppressive. A change that comes from within people, i.e. them actually realising wrongdoing, is much more valuable than anything else. I'd be happy to have abortion illegal, but I'd much rather the pro-abortion to be legal view became a minimal insignificant voice rather than the bellowing monster it is now.

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

Other peoples rhetoric aside. Shame is something I desire to arise in myself when I have done wrong, and I use it to provoke change in me. Shamelessness is the enemy IMO. So when I talk of shame in the context of abortion, I talk of a shame that arises with the realisation of wrongdoing, rather than the pressures of society. In the context of the site I posted, I hope that the testimony of the people who survived abortion, will show what could have been destroyed in their cases, and IS destroyed in 'successful' abortions. I'm hoping for a realisation, a dawning within people. In this shame, I hope it provokes them to change, just as my shame at my wrongdoings, provoke me.

You're still not getting that not everyone shares your opinion on abortion as 'wrongdoing'. They probably don't share your opinion that the person is created at conception either.

Attempting to convince people to change their opinion by emotional manipulation isn't a very good way of doing things. You need to be able to convince them that a person begins at conception using facts. Attempting to shame people will instantly put them off listening to anything you say as they'll just regard you as a bully.

kylith

JimiTime wrote: »

You are of course welcome to your view. Like I said, I merely hope that people come to realise the reality.

It is not reality, it is YOUR OPINION.

Obliq

JimiTime wrote: »

I cannot in good conscience accept a regime that kills growing humans in utero, and I hope that can be appreciated. Think about it, if you believed that these lives had intrinsic value, could you really stand idly by while they were snuffed out?

For fear of repeating myself (or doing damage to my head against a brick wall) this is the only point in your post that I haven't already addressed. It's also a good point, to which I will have to answer yes, if that is what I believed, unless I also did everything in my power to combat world hunger, war, IVF ....all the ways that people (including embryos, if I believed they were as important as grown people) die at other people's hands, even at a remove. Otherwise, I could be accused of blatant hypocrisy. And of choosing what group of people to shame on an emotionally biased basis.

JimiTime

koth wrote: »

You're still not getting that not everyone shares your opinion on abortion as 'wrongdoing'.

i do get that. Of course I get it. Loud and clear. The hope is that some come round to se it as wrongdoing.

They probably don't share your opinion that the person is created at conception either.

Every unique human life begins at conception. I didn't even think that was up for discussion.

Attempting to convince people to change their opinion by emotional manipulation isn't a very good way of doing things.

You make it sound malevolent. I don't think listening to abortion survivors tell their stories is a malevolent thing. It simply shows what happens when the people abortion aims to terminate, survive. I.E. They continue on their path of life. Its a good way of cutting through the bullsh1t, and showing the human reality.

You need to be able to convince them that a person begins at conception using facts.

The facts are there for everyone. I don't think the facts of pregnancy etc really come into it past a certain point tbh. I think it more important to appeal to a persons humanity. If a person hears a person, that should have actually been dead if abortion had succeeded, tell their story, it can be enough to convince them of the reality as to what abortion truly destroys.

Attempting to shame people will instantly put them off listening to anything you say as they'll just regard you as a bully.

I'm not attempting to shame anyone, I am hoping that they eventually begin to realise the reality of abortion. I think a natural progression from seeing this if someone has had an abortion is shame.

JimiTime

Obliq wrote: »

For fear of repeating myself (or doing damage to my head against a brick wall) this is the only point in your post that I haven't already addressed. It's also a good point, to which I will have to answer yes, if that is what I believed, unless I also did everything in my power to combat world hunger, war, IVF ....all the ways that people (including embryos, if I believed they were as important as grown people) die at other people's hands, even at a remove. Otherwise, I could be accused of blatant hypocrisy. And of choosing what group of people to shame on an emotionally biased basis.

So unless a person tackles every woe in the world, they are hypocritical in taking a stand against any woe in the world? Apart from that point, I'm glad you understand the issue with being silent about abortion when you hold my view.

maguic24

JimiTime wrote: »

i do get that. Of course I get it. Loud and clear. The hope is that some come round to se it as wrongdoing.



Every unique human life begins at conception. I didn't even think that was up for discussion.



You make it sound malevolent. I don't think listening to abortion survivors tell their stories is a malevolent thing. It simply shows what happens when the people abortion aims to terminate, survive. I.E. They continue on their path of life. Its a good way of cutting through the bullsh1t, and showing the human reality.



The facts are there for everyone. I don't think the facts of pregnancy etc really come into it past a certain point tbh. I think it more important to appeal to a persons humanity. If a person hears a person, that should have actually been dead if abortion had succeeded, tell their story, it can be enough to convince them of the reality as to what abortion truly destroys.



I'm not attempting to shame anyone, I am hoping that they eventually begin to realise the reality of abortion. I think a natural progression from seeing this if someone has had an abortion is shame.

What's you opinion on the after morning pill?

lazygal

JimiTime wrote: »

So unless a person tackles every woe in the world, they are hypocritical in taking a stand against any woe in the world? Apart from that point, I'm glad you understand the issue with being silent about abortion when you hold my view.

Do you ever feel shame at being so judgmental? And not being able to empathise with others?

Do you ever feel shame at not answering questions put to you, such as whether those who kill during war should feel the same shame as those who abort pregnancies?

gaynorvader

PopePalpatine wrote: »

"Treatment" which consists of working in a Church-owned laundrette.

Should we send murderers there too?

JimiTime

Anyway guys, I'll post that link again. I hope you can get around to reading it. I thought it was powerful testimony, but I would wouldn't I

http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/

Obliq

JimiTime wrote: »

So unless a person tackles every woe in the world, they are hypocritical in taking a stand against any woe in the world?

Yes, pretty much! Glad you agree. Where DO you stand on people being trained to kill in the military, and the discarding of unwanted embryos during IVF by the way?

shruikan2553

JimiTime wrote: »

Every unique human life begins at conception. I didn't even think that was up for discussion.

From what I can find online it is believed that a third of fertilized eggs dont implant, they are passed out of the body and many women dont even notice. Do you mourn this loss of life too? How is it that you care about human life at conception but dont care about the potential life that the sperm and egg could form?

JimiTime wrote: »

You make it sound malevolent. I don't think listening to abortion survivors tell their stories is a malevolent thing. It simply shows what happens when the people abortion aims to terminate, survive. I.E. They continue on their path of life. Its a good way of cutting through the bullsh1t, and showing the human reality.

The facts are there for everyone. I don't think the facts of pregnancy etc really come into it past a certain point tbh. I think it more important to appeal to a persons humanity. If a person hears a person, that should have actually been dead if abortion had succeeded, tell their story, it can be enough to convince them of the reality as to what abortion truly destroys.

What bout listening to peoples stories who had to have an abortion or couldnt have one and what they went through? The pro choice side seems to ignore the fact that there is a pregnant woman with emotions and feelings too.

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm not attempting to shame anyone, I am hoping that they eventually begin to realise the reality of abortion. I think a natural progression from seeing this if someone has had an abortion is shame.

But you want people to feel shame for doing something they felt was the right thing to do, they realise the reality of abortion far more than you seem to with your "but killing babies" arguments.

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

i do get that. Of course I get it. Loud and clear. The hope is that some come round to se it as wrongdoing.

Every unique human life begins at conception. I didn't even think that was up for discussion.

I referred to a person not human life. Sperm is also human life.

You make it sound malevolent. I don't think listening to abortion survivors tell their stories is a malevolent thing. It simply shows what happens when the people abortion aims to terminate, survive. I.E. They continue on their path of life. Its a good way of cutting through the bullsh1t, and showing the human reality.

It is when you present it and state that you hope it makes women feel shame for having an abortion. That is a malevolent thing IMHO. It's not presenting any medical facts to the audience, just appeals to emotion.

The facts are there for everyone. I don't think the facts of pregnancy etc really come into it past a certain point tbh. I think it more important to appeal to a persons humanity. If a person hears a person, that should have actually been dead if abortion had succeeded, tell their story, it can be enough to convince them of the reality as to what abortion truly destroys.

No it doesn't as for part of the pregnancy no person exists due to the lack of a brain. Again it's just appeals to emotion, "here's a likeable person that almost didn't exist". The merits of abortion should stand or fall based on medical facts.

I'm not attempting to shame anyone, I am hoping that they eventually begin to realise the reality of abortion. I think a natural progression from seeing this if someone has had an abortion is shame.

Yes you are. You posted the link to the website stating that you hoped it hit a nerve for any women who had an abortion, i.e. cause them to feel guilt/shame. You are absolutely attempting to shame those women.

Obliq

JimiTime wrote: »

Anyway guys, I'll post that link again. I hope you can get around to reading it. I thought it was powerful testimony, but I would wouldn't I

http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/

Already told you what this testimony brings to me. Perhaps you could read it again, since you seem to have missed the point (in your response), which is that the testimony is a moot point.

Me: "As for the PEOPLE you mention - this is your first moot point. We are all here by happy accident/chance. All this testimony brings home to me is that it would be a difficult thing to know that your mother wished and tried to end the pregnancy that produced you. With these very few exceptions, I can safely say that all other aborted fetuses know nothing about it, as they are dead."

You: "Indeed, those lives on the end of 'successful' abortions never had a voice. Also, there is nothing accidental about wilfully killing the unborn. The only accident in the lives of the people on the site, is the rather fortunate one that meant they evaded the death that their mothers/parents had desired for them."

shruikan2553

Heres the letter I was thinking of from earlier:

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-my-son-was-cremated-alone-in-a-different-country-because-he-had-a-fatal-foetal-abnormality-1016310-Jul2013/

Anyone against abortion reading that should be the ones to feel shame for wanting to put someone through that.

maguic24

JimiTime, can you please answer my question?

I know this one girl that is very prolife/youth defence but she thinks there is nothing wrong with taking the after morning pill and has done so on 2 occasions. This really baffles me and I would like to see if this is the case with any other prolifers??

Sarky

And here I was thinking the guts of a day later, Jimi might have posted an apology for airing such vile, repulsive, shameful views. Nope, there he is trying to defend them instead.

You probably aren't ashamed of yourself, Jimi. But by Christ, you should be.

So I was thinking of having a cheese and biscuit board for late lunch today, opinions?