Abortion Discussion

Cabaal

JimiTime, I'd also like for you to address my question on support

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85892311&postcount=739

Or are you just going to ignore it and continue to just keep reposting the link to that website you like to mention?

lazygal

Depends on the cheese and, to a lesser extent, the biscuits.

I had a salad for lunch, but just compensated for it with a Twix and a mug of strong tea.

JimiTime

koth wrote: »

Yes you are. You posted the link to the website stating that you hoped it hit a nerve for any women who had an abortion, i.e. cause them to feel guilt/shame. You are absolutely attempting to shame those women.

There is a difference between trying to shame someone (A public event), and hoping that a person feels an inner shame with the hope that it leads them to change.

Obliq

Mmmm, water biscuits and wensleydale.....would be just the thing for my raging local-wedding hangover. Have only attempted tea and medication so far, so lunch. Yes. Good call Sarky.

Nodin

JimiTime wrote: »

There is a difference between trying to shame someone (A public event), and hoping that a person feels an inner shame with the hope that it leads them to change.

....but by going on about on a public forum, you've made it a "public event"...

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/08/08/hosp-will-ethos-itself/

I recall talking to someone whose wife had recently experienced an emergency during pregnancy.

Admitted under her gynaecologist in a very well regarded religious-ethos hospital, she was in a serious condition and needed an emergency termination. A member of medical staff pulled the husband aside and advised him, in an undertone, to seek a transfer to another hospital in another part of the country, immediately, because he could not guarantee that she’d be given the lifesaving treatment she needed in this hospital, because of its religious ethos. She was transferred to a hospital three hours away by ambulance, and, after being treated as required, made a full recovery.

My friend thought this legislation would make that situation a thing of the past, but he was wrong.

We’re back to a situation where a woman who is pregnant – and has the money to choose where she is treated – will have to spend some time researching the religious ‘ethos’ of her hospital and even her doctor to ensure that she will be treated in accordance with the law. If – like most of us – she doesn’t have a choice about where she’s treated, a few decades of the Rosary might be advisable instead.

Disgusting goings on, what if she had died during the time it took for her to go to another hospital?

kylith

JimiTime wrote: »

Anyway guys, I'll post that link again. I hope you can get around to reading it. I thought it was powerful testimony, but I would wouldn't I

http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/

You know, I read through those and, well, they're what I expected: "I wish my mother hadn't tried to have an abortion", what else can they say? And their 'experiences'? What fúcking experiences? Again it's 'my mother tried to have an abortion, It didn't work, here I am, um, that's it.' They'd never have known about it if they hadn't been told about it, and none of them seem to have been horrifically effected by it.

Maybe I'm a horrible person. Maybe I'm callous, cruel and heartless but reading those testimonials what came to my mind was: those women should have gone to better clinics.

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

There is a difference between trying to shame someone (A public event), and hoping that a person feels an inner shame with the hope that it leads them to change.

But you're not just hoping, you posted a link to a website on a public forum in the hope of making women feel shame.

Sarky

I want to clarify my last post. It's not about publicly shaming Jimitime for posting such utterly abhorrent views, not at all.

I just hope he learns to feel some inner shame after realising the extent of the disgusting thing he's done.

lazygal

Cabaal wrote: »

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/08/08/hosp-will-ethos-itself/



Disgusting goings on, what if she had died during the time it took for her to go to another hospital?

What if she was unable to travel at all?

I know based on my experience that I got better care going private during my pregnancies than a woman in a similar position who went public. We had similar complications and outcomes, but our antenatal, delivery and post natal care was worlds apart. She was assigned to a consultant she never met during her pregnancy who made decisions on her behalf that she wasn't happy with, I was able to chose the consultant I wanted and had the time and superior equipment to make my experience a better one.


Ireland does not have the best maternity care, or the safest, in the world. We're about average, and while its not PC to say it you get better care going private, and even going to specific consultants. There's ones in the hospital I attend I hope to not have to encounter.

Morag

JimiTime wrote: »

The desire is not to vilify, and say, 'You evil woman'. The hope, is that people realise what they have done to their own child. The website I linked to, in case you didn't go to it, was a network of PEOPLE who had actually survived the abortion process I.E. They were the fetus/unborn human that the abortion practitioner was trying to kill. In hearing their stories, I just hope that people can get closer to the reality of what abortion is doing I.E. snuffing out people like the ones telling their story.

I am aware of such cases and think it it terrible that their mothers had such a hard time accessing abortion services and weren't able to end the pregnancies medically before 9 weeks.

JimiTime wrote: »

I hope shame eventually comes to people like yourself not out of any malice on my part, but as a positive change in your life.

Ridding my self of the shame and stigma imposed on me and speaking out about the fact I had an abortion has been a positive change in my life.

JimiTime wrote: »

Its not about judging people,

If you think I should feel shame then you are judging me.

JimiTime wrote: »

but hoping for change, so that it doesn't happen anymore.

So you are in favour of proper health based factual sex education in our schools and free contraception?

Or is it the hope that I will feel so bad and ashamed to have had an abortion that I never have another one? I would have another one. I have two children I don't' want any more, if in despite of my best efforts I became pregnant in the future I would have an abortion.

JimiTime wrote: »

I've no desire to see people suffer, but if my child died, I'd be a lot more concerned if my wife simply didn't care about it, than if her heart ached and she grieved. Similarly, I think it would be rather odd to desire people change their view on abortion, without actually feeling some sort of remorse if they've had one. Afterall, they will be realising that not only is their unique child gone, but it was destroyed at their own hand.

Yes I wish my life circumstances had of been different when I became pregnant the first time but if I had not have had an abortion I would not have the children I have now.

JimiTime wrote: »

Also, it goes without saying, that we should tackle the issues surrounding abortion too, and see WHY people get them. Set up support for those who need it, make sure we treat rape as a most heinous and serious crime, and all the other factors that we find should be dealt with to the best of our abilities.

Yes we need to look at factors like sex education and access to contraception and child care and supporting people who decide to continue the pregnancy and to ease social stigma, work pressures and economic pressures which may factor into why someone doesn't want a child at that time in their life but bottom line, if a woman is pregnant in the first trimester and does not wish to be then she should have the option to have a free, safe and legal abortion here in Ireland.

Morag

JimiTime wrote: »

There is a difference between trying to shame someone (A public event), and hoping that a person feels an inner shame with the hope that it leads them to change.

So you are hoping that a person's mental health and emotional well being is impacted in a negative manner?

Charming.

doctoremma

I've been in two minds about posting this for a while now. I'm going to be brutally honest, and if that or my language annoys/inflames/offends anyone, I’ll take that consequence. This may be long. And of course, I'm not speaking for every girl.

I'd like to start off by saying “When I was 20” but I wouldn't even be sure that was correct. I could count back but I can't be bothered, so we'll go with 20.

When I was 20, I got pregnant. I was in a relationship but not one that was likely to end up in marriage. I was in my second year of university and doing very well. Obviously, this was not a planned pregnancy, although some may disagree because it was result of nothing but carelessness – I could not blame any forgotten pill or broken condom. From the moment that line appeared on the stick, there was never any doubt in my mind what my next course of action was. Within in ten days, I had had a termination (surgical D and C type thing under general anesthetic; these days, at such an early stage, girls can have medical abortions). I was around five weeks pregnant; at this stage, the fetus looks like a little pod of beans and is the same size as an apple seed. There was no medical reason I had a termination, I wasn't poor and I was a sensible adult – it was one of the much maligned “lifestyle choices”.

But, of course, this post is not to relay the biology of my termination. That's quite mundane and can be read in any textbook. Let's do the psychological analysis.

Such analysis can proceed from this first premise: there is none to be had. That's not being funny, or wry, or deliberately contrary – quite simply, as far as I can tell, I have never suffered any kind of psychological issue as a result of having a termination. I have never felt sadness, loss, regret, guilt or shame (and I'm comfortable saying that I haven’t ever felt any great positivity about it all). I have not once cried over any part of it. I don't subscribe to the premise of “Well, it's not nice but it was the right thing for me at the time”. It WAS the right thing for me at the time, but I never needed to use that as any justification for negative emotions or reactions. I have a suspicion that it is a hollow and half-hearted attempt by some girls to make the other party feel better – “I'm not a monster, I can recognise that it might be a bad thing” might sometimes mean “I can't be bothered to deal with you objecting to this so I'm just going to utter a nicety to avoid conflict”.

To Jimi (and similar): Efforts at bringing shame to girls like me are futile. I don't mean “difficult” or “uncomfortable”, I mean “futile”. Being confronted with pictures and testimonies from abortion survivors doesn't twang at any heartstrings, churn any stomachs or prickle any conscience. If I can happily adore my friends' children – give them cuddles, stroke their hair, marvel at them growing up – then I think it's safe to say that the logic of objecting to termination by reversing the thought process to “Look, you could have killed this child” has not registered as valid in my head. I think you really underestimate how some women can feel about their terminations if you imagine that such testimonies will have us gnashing our teeth with despair at what we lost. I completely support your right to object, of course I do. I just don't think you always know what you're dealing with (and I'm sorry if that sounds patronising).

That you think shame could or should be a natural progression after a termination says more about you (I don't mean that in a bad way) than about me. I feel what I feel, not what you think I should feel. To say that I should realise what I've done is part and parcel of the same thought process – it is YOU who doesn't recognise my reality (and that of many others). My reality is this: I simply don’t care about the fetus that was removed from me. It wasn't a child, I don't wonder what colour hair it might have had or whether it would have gone to university. I don't think there is anything you can do or say to induce me to feel differently. I don't see where the foundation for guilt or shame can come from; there is no seed of doubt that is buried deep away, there is no road that I am avoiding for fear of the pain it will cause. I can't even remember when I had the termination, it had so little an impact on me.

The nature of my personality would have me mentioning something to ease the situation, give you a way out. Perhaps I might joke about my abject lack of emotion by saying “But perhaps I'm just broken” or “Maybe my head isn't wired right”. But, you know, I don't really believe this, it's just another nicety to make YOU feel better. I might not be the most emotional girl around but I'm not Spock. I feel sad and guilty and ashamed, whenever I have done something to feel sad, guilty or ashamed about.

My termination is not one of those things. In fact, the first time I've ever felt one iota of shame about the whole thing was just before I started this post, when I realised that I’d let other girls here be the ones to speak about their experiences, to take the hit for people like me. For that, I'm sorry.

Bannasidhe

doctoremma wrote: »

I've been in two minds about posting this for a while now. I'm going to be brutally honest, and if that or my language annoys/inflames/offends anyone, I’ll take that consequence. This may be long. And of course, I'm not speaking for every girl.

I'd like to start off by saying “When I was 20” but I wouldn't even be sure that was correct. I could count back but I can't be bothered, so we'll go with 20.

When I was 20, I got pregnant. I was in a relationship but not one that was likely to end up in marriage. I was in my second year of university and doing very well. Obviously, this was not a planned pregnancy, although some may disagree because it was result of nothing but carelessness – I could not blame any forgotten pill or broken condom. From the moment that line appeared on the stick, there was never any doubt in my mind what my next course of action was. Within in ten days, I had had a termination (surgical D and C type thing under general anesthetic; these days, at such an early stage, girls can have medical abortions). I was around five weeks pregnant; at this stage, the fetus looks like a little pod of beans and is the same size as an apple seed. There was no medical reason I had a termination, I wasn't poor and I was a sensible adult – it was one of the much maligned “lifestyle choices”.

But, of course, this post is not to relay the biology of my termination. That's quite mundane and can be read in any textbook. Let's do the psychological analysis.

Such analysis can proceed from this first premise: there is none to be had. That's not being funny, or wry, or deliberately contrary – quite simply, as far as I can tell, I have never suffered any kind of psychological issue as a result of having a termination. I have never felt sadness, loss, regret, guilt or shame (and I'm comfortable saying that I haven’t ever felt any great positivity about it all). I have not once cried over any part of it. I don't subscribe to the premise of “Well, it's not nice but it was the right thing for me at the time”. It WAS the right thing for me at the time, but I never needed to use that as any justification for negative emotions or reactions. I have a suspicion that it is a hollow and half-hearted attempt by some girls to make the other party feel better – “I'm not a monster, I can recognise that it might be a bad thing” might sometimes mean “I can't be bothered to deal with you objecting to this so I'm just going to utter a nicety to avoid conflict”.

To Jimi (and similar): Efforts at bringing shame to girls like me are futile. I don't mean “difficult” or “uncomfortable”, I mean “futile”. Being confronted with pictures and testimonies from abortion survivors doesn't twang at any heartstrings, churn any stomachs or prickle any conscience. If I can happily adore my friends' children – give them cuddles, stroke their hair, marvel at them growing up – then I think it's safe to say that the logic of objecting to termination by reversing the thought process to “Look, you could have killed this child” has not registered as valid in my head. I think you really underestimate how some women can feel about their terminations if you imagine that such testimonies will have us gnashing our teeth with despair at what we lost. I completely support your right to object, of course I do. I just don't think you always know what you're dealing with (and I'm sorry if that sounds patronising).

That you think shame could or should be a natural progression after a termination says more about you (I don't mean that in a bad way) than about me. I feel what I feel, not what you think I should feel. To say that I should realise what I've done is part and parcel of the same thought process – it is YOU who doesn't recognise my reality (and that of many others). My reality is this: I simply don’t care about the fetus that was removed from me. It wasn't a child, I don't wonder what colour hair it might have had or whether it would have gone to university. I don't think there is anything you can do or say to induce me to feel differently. I don't see where the foundation for guilt or shame can come from; there is no seed of doubt that is buried deep away, there is no road that I am avoiding for fear of the pain it will cause. I can't even remember when I had the termination, it had so little an impact on me.

The nature of my personality would have me mentioning something to ease the situation, give you a way out. Perhaps I might joke about my abject lack of emotion by saying “But perhaps I'm just broken” or “Maybe my head isn't wired right”. But, you know, I don't really believe this, it's just another nicety to make YOU feel better. I might not be the most emotional girl around but I'm not Spock. I feel sad and guilty and ashamed, whenever I have done something to feel sad, guilty or ashamed about.

My termination is not one of those things. In fact, the first time I've ever felt one iota of shame about the whole thing was just before I started this post, when I realised that I’d let other girls here be the ones to speak about their experiences, to take the hit for people like me. For that, I'm sorry.

Thank you Emma.

gaynorvader

JimiTime wrote: »

There is a difference between trying to shame someone (A public event), and hoping that a person feels an inner shame with the hope that it leads them to change.

Do you think that these women should be punished? Should they be jailed for life?

Bannasidhe

gaynorvader wrote: »

Do you think that these women should be punished? Should they be jailed for life?

But think of all the unique human lives that will never be if they are jailed for life :eek:

Obliq

doctoremma wrote: »

In fact, the first time I've ever felt one iota of shame about the whole thing was just before I started this post, when I realised that I’d let other girls here be the ones to speak about their experiences, to take the hit for people like me. For that, I'm sorry.

Excuse crudity, but f*ck me....thank you for your totally straightforward honesty and hitting the nail on the head about the "niceties" people often feel they have to add. Also, no shame about the above. Why should there be shame? Thanks again

gaynorvader

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But think of all the unique human lives that will never be if they are jailed for life :eek:

Yeah, but they're murderers

Bannasidhe

gaynorvader wrote: »

Yeah, but they're murderers

If we expect PEOPLE to give birth to rapist's children then why should murderers get off eh?
Tis PC wotsit gone maaad.

gaynorvader

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If we expect PEOPLE to give birth to rapist's children then why should murderers get off eh?
Tis PC wotsit gone maaad.

I'm just trying to follow the logic. Having an abortion means you are murdering your child, murder is wrong and punishable by jail time (particularly pre-meditated murder), therefore these women should be jailed and probably the doctors too as accomplices. And if a woman has a miscarriage then that's manslaughter right there! Away to prison she goes.

Bannasidhe

gaynorvader wrote: »

I'm just trying to follow the logic. Having an abortion means you are murdering your child, murder is wrong and punishable by jail time (particularly pre-meditated murder), therefore these women should be jailed and probably the doctors too as accomplices. And if a woman has a miscarriage then that's manslaughter right there! Away to prison she goes.

If you try and apply logic you'll get a nose bleed...

JimiTime

koth wrote: »

But you're not just hoping, you posted a link to a website on a public forum in the hope of making women feel shame.

Not just women, men too. Anyone who has aided the abortion process. I really hope that people begin to feel shame, eventually, about their support for these things. Like I said, its not about 'Look at all those shameful people. Lets point and wag our fingers', as most of us have probably been ashamed of ourselves for things we've done at some point in our lives. The goal is positive change, That we can say, 'No more', and thats not going to happen without reflection. How can it happen without shame arising in a person? People seem to have an aversion to people feeling bad about themselves. The thing is, its the start of change. Nobody wants to see these people ostracised and cast out. I want to see them change their attitude, and I can't see that being possible without first feeling ashamed of their current position. Think about something that you see as wrongdoing, like burglary for example. I'd also like to see burglars change their attitudes, and have a shame rise within them that leads to them changing. Its not about pointing fingers and 'shaming people'. its about hoping change comes from within such people, and that their initial shame gives way to positive change.

Sarky

There are better ways to enact change than with shame, you know. Just because Catholic guilt makes you feel it's the only option doesn't automatically make it so. Hopefully some day soon you'll be filled with shame about the things you've posted here.

Bannasidhe

JimiTime wrote: »

Not just women, men too. Anyone who has aided the abortion process. I really hope that people begin to feel shame, eventually, about their support for these things. Like I said, its not about 'Look at all those shameful people. Lets point and wag our fingers', as most of us have probably been ashamed of ourselves for things we've done at some point in our lives. The goal is positive change, That we can say, 'No more', and thats not going to happen without reflection. How can it happen without shame arising in a person? People seem to have an aversion to people feeling bad about themselves. The thing is, its the start of change. Nobody wants to see these people ostracised and cast out. I want to see them change their attitude, and I can't see that being possible without first feeling ashamed of their current position. Think about something that you see as wrongdoing, like burglary for example. I'd also like to see burglars change their attitudes, and have a shame rise within them that leads to them changing. Its not about pointing fingers and 'shaming people'. its about hoping change comes from within such people, and that their initial shame gives way to positive change.

Could someone ask Jimi how many men have had unwanted pregnancies?

He doesn't seem to be talking to me - can't imagine why....

By the by - should pilots be included in those who feel this shame?
Should they refuse to fly the plane until they are assured no passenger is about to engage in anything to do with abortion?
What about taxi drivers?

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

There are better ways to enact change than with shame, you know. Just because Catholic guilt makes you feel it's the only option doesn't automatically make it so. Hopefully some day soon you'll be filled with shame about the things you've posted here.

I don't think Jimi is a Catholic.

Sarky

Fine, Christian guilt. Not quite as focused as the Catholic kind but still pretty impressive.

PopePalpatine

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't think Jimi is a Catholic.

Given his posts in t'udder forum, he probably is.

You'd have more luck getting jank to explain "dumbing down history" than getting Jimi to give his honest answer on imprisoning women who have abortions.

JimiTime

doctoremma wrote: »

I've been in two minds about posting this for a while now. I'm going to be brutally honest, and if that or my language annoys/inflames/offends anyone, I’ll take that consequence. This may be long. And of course, I'm not speaking for every girl.

I'd like to start off by saying “When I was 20” but I wouldn't even be sure that was correct. I could count back but I can't be bothered, so we'll go with 20.

When I was 20, I got pregnant. I was in a relationship but not one that was likely to end up in marriage. I was in my second year of university and doing very well. Obviously, this was not a planned pregnancy, although some may disagree because it was result of nothing but carelessness – I could not blame any forgotten pill or broken condom. From the moment that line appeared on the stick, there was never any doubt in my mind what my next course of action was. Within in ten days, I had had a termination (surgical D and C type thing under general anesthetic; these days, at such an early stage, girls can have medical abortions). I was around five weeks pregnant; at this stage, the fetus looks like a little pod of beans and is the same size as an apple seed. There was no medical reason I had a termination, I wasn't poor and I was a sensible adult – it was one of the much maligned “lifestyle choices”.

But, of course, this post is not to relay the biology of my termination. That's quite mundane and can be read in any textbook. Let's do the psychological analysis.

Such analysis can proceed from this first premise: there is none to be had. That's not being funny, or wry, or deliberately contrary – quite simply, as far as I can tell, I have never suffered any kind of psychological issue as a result of having a termination. I have never felt sadness, loss, regret, guilt or shame (and I'm comfortable saying that I haven’t ever felt any great positivity about it all). I have not once cried over any part of it. I don't subscribe to the premise of “Well, it's not nice but it was the right thing for me at the time”. It WAS the right thing for me at the time, but I never needed to use that as any justification for negative emotions or reactions. I have a suspicion that it is a hollow and half-hearted attempt by some girls to make the other party feel better – “I'm not a monster, I can recognise that it might be a bad thing” might sometimes mean “I can't be bothered to deal with you objecting to this so I'm just going to utter a nicety to avoid conflict”.

To Jimi (and similar): Efforts at bringing shame to girls like me are futile. I don't mean “difficult” or “uncomfortable”, I mean “futile”. Being confronted with pictures and testimonies from abortion survivors doesn't twang at any heartstrings, churn any stomachs or prickle any conscience. If I can happily adore my friends' children – give them cuddles, stroke their hair, marvel at them growing up – then I think it's safe to say that the logic of objecting to termination by reversing the thought process to “Look, you could have killed this child” has not registered as valid in my head. I think you really underestimate how some women can feel about their terminations if you imagine that such testimonies will have us gnashing our teeth with despair at what we lost. I completely support your right to object, of course I do. I just don't think you always know what you're dealing with (and I'm sorry if that sounds patronising).

That you think shame could or should be a natural progression after a termination says more about you (I don't mean that in a bad way) than about me. I feel what I feel, not what you think I should feel. To say that I should realise what I've done is part and parcel of the same thought process – it is YOU who doesn't recognise my reality (and that of many others). My reality is this: I simply don’t care about the fetus that was removed from me. It wasn't a child, I don't wonder what colour hair it might have had or whether it would have gone to university. I don't think there is anything you can do or say to induce me to feel differently. I don't see where the foundation for guilt or shame can come from; there is no seed of doubt that is buried deep away, there is no road that I am avoiding for fear of the pain it will cause. I can't even remember when I had the termination, it had so little an impact on me.

The nature of my personality would have me mentioning something to ease the situation, give you a way out. Perhaps I might joke about my abject lack of emotion by saying “But perhaps I'm just broken” or “Maybe my head isn't wired right”. But, you know, I don't really believe this, it's just another nicety to make YOU feel better. I might not be the most emotional girl around but I'm not Spock. I feel sad and guilty and ashamed, whenever I have done something to feel sad, guilty or ashamed about.

My termination is not one of those things. In fact, the first time I've ever felt one iota of shame about the whole thing was just before I started this post, when I realised that I’d let other girls here be the ones to speak about their experiences, to take the hit for people like me. For that, I'm sorry.

I appreciate the testimony, and like I said, my hope (however hopeless) is for a change in such an attitude. I know a few people who've had abortions, and only one of them seems to be affected in any way by it. I am aware that to some its almost a non-event, and that attitude may never change. I live in hope though. Listening to those abortion survivors IMO, brings home the lives destroyed by abortion. I believe this will strike a chord with some. Obviously not yourself YET by the sounds of it, but with some. Just like sharing the Good News of the kingdom will not ring true with all who hear, sometimes its just a matter of the seed being sown for a later time.

Pherekydes

JimiTime wrote: »

Just like sharing the Good News of the kingdom...

What kingdom? This is a republic.

Bannasidhe

JimiTime wrote: »

sometimes its just a matter of the seed being sown for a later time.

What an unfortunate choice of words...