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Abortion Discussion
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Right.......ProfessorPlum wrote: »Why don't you go find out what chorioamnionitis is for a start.
Of course you don't, though you would have to show what it is exactly you think I'm wrong about.ProfessorPlum wrote: »I don't need to quote a source to show that you are wrong.
Then we can turn to your diagnosis.
I'm sure you think so, and we'll all be amazed when you do your cunning reveal to rapturous applause.ProfessorPlum wrote: »In fairness, I have got you on a bit of a technicality, but if you knew the first thing about what you're talking about, you'd know that.
Well, since you've already spoken for Drkpowers medical credentials, we can be assured. After all, it's not like this is an internet forum or anythingProfessorPlum wrote: »I'll let Drkpower speak to his own medical credentials, (I don't 'pick him up on his medical opinion because 1. he is a doctor, and 2. he is right. It's nothing to do with bias)
Drabsolam just doesn't carry the same weight, for obvious reasons!
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It's always interesting to go back and look at the medical information that we have available, unencumbered by the desperate rewriting of events that the Pro-life (what an ironic use of the term) movement have engaged in wrt Savita Halapannavar. Here is Dr Jen Gunter's analysis of all the possible explanations for the death of any woman from the complications of a miscarriage at 17 weeks.I'm saying I'd like to know what the basis for their diagnosis is. What is the likelihood that it is your linked obstetrician? Either way I'd want to know if the person who made the diagnosis;
Examined the patient at the time?
Reviewed the medical records?
Consulted with the medical team?
Had any contact with the case at all other than reading journalists reports?
Because if they didn't, that sounds more like an opinion than a diagnosis to me (though unlike ProfessorPlum, I'm not offering a diagnosis, and unlike Drkpower, I'm not offering a treatment plan).
It's a general explanation, she doesn't pretend to have read the notes etc - but Dr Boylan, who did read them, since he was called as expert witness, doesn't contradict anything here : he was quite clear that an early termination would have been the only way to save her life.
https://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/did-irish-catholic-law-or-malpractice-kill-savita-halappanavar/
* We now know that Savita asked for a cerclage, in the hope of saving her pregnancy, and was told that it was too late, because the membranes were bulging.... He and his late wife were led to believe that the law would only allow her to be delivered when there was no fetal heartbeat.
What does the standard of medical care say about this treatment? Without access to the chart, “miscarrying” at 17 weeks can only mean one of three things”
A) Ruptured membranes
Advanced cervical dilation
C) Labor (this is unlikely, although it is possible that she had preterm labor that arrested and left her with scenario B, advanced cervical dilation).
All three of these scenarios have a dismal prognosis, none of which should involve the death of the mother.
The standard of care with ruptured membranes (scenario A) is to offer termination or, if there is no evidence of infection and the pregnancy is desired, the option of observing for a few days to see if the leak seals over ... and the baby might make it to at least 24 weeks in the pregnancy, however, I have never heard of a baby surviving in this scenario. Regardless, if infection is suspected at any time the treatment is antibiotics and delivery not antibiotics alone.
The standard of care with scenario B involves offering delivery or possibly a rescue cerclage (a stitch around the cervix to try to prevent further dilation and thus delivery) depending on the situation. Inducing delivery (or a D and E) is offered because a cervix that has dilated significantly often leads to labor or an infection as the membranes are now exposed to the vaginal flora. *
As Ms. Halappanavar died of an infection, one that would have been brewing for several days if not longer, the fact that a termination was delayed for any reason is malpractice. Infection must always be suspected whenever, preterm labor, premature rupture of the membranes, or advanced premature cervical dilation occurs (one of the scenarios that would have brought Ms. Halappanavar to the hospital).
As there is no medically acceptable scenario at 17 weeks where a woman is miscarrying AND is denied a termination, there can only be three plausible explanations for Ms. Hapappanavar’s “medical care” :
1) Irish law does indeed treat pregnant women as second class citizens and denies them appropriate medical care. The medical team was following the law to avoid criminal prosecution.
2) Irish law does not deny women the care they need; however, a zealous individual doctor or hospital administrator interpreted Catholic doctrine in such a way that a pregnant woman’s medical care was somehow irrelevant and superceded by heart tones of a 17 weeks fetus that could never be viable.
3) Irish law allows abortions for women when medically necessary, but the doctors involved were negligent in that they could not diagnose infection when it was so obviously present, did not know the treatment, or were not competent enough to carry out the treatment.
What we do know is that a young, pregnant, woman who presented to the hospital in a first world country died for want of appropriate medical care. Whether it’s Irish Catholic law or malpractice, only time will tell; however, no answer could possibly ease the pain and suffering of Ms. Halappanavar’s loved ones.
Since posting this piece I learned that Ms. Halappanavar’s widower reported that she was leaking amniotic fluid and was fully dilated when first evaluated. There is no medically defensible position for doing anything other than optimal pain control and hastening delivery by the safest means possible.
"In a first world country" - is making the same point I was earlier, and that Absolam appears not to understand. It's not enough to find third world countries who point at and say, oh look, they do the same over there - that doesn't justify us doing it here. The countries I want Ireland to be comparable with don't do it. Why do we? And the answer is religion.0 -
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