Abortion Discussion

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

Not just women, men too. Anyone who has aided the abortion process. I really hope that people begin to feel shame, eventually, about their support for these things. Like I said, its not about 'Look at all those shameful people. Lets point and wag our fingers', as most of us have probably been ashamed of ourselves for things we've done at some point in our lives. The goal is positive change, That we can say, 'No more', and thats not going to happen without reflection. How can it happen without shame arising in a person? People seem to have an aversion to people feeling bad about themselves. The thing is, its the start of change. Nobody wants to see these people ostracised and cast out. I want to see them change their attitude, and I can't see that being possible without first feeling ashamed of their current position. Think about something that you see as wrongdoing, like burglary for example. I'd also like to see burglars change their attitudes, and have a shame rise within them that leads to them changing. Its not about pointing fingers and 'shaming people'. its about hoping change comes from within such people, and that their initial shame gives way to positive change.

You realise people can actually change their position without being shamed into it. It shows respect for the other person to not attempt to shame them. Why can you not discuss this topic and leave the shaming at the door?

Explain in simple and clear language why you view abortion as wrong.

JimiTime

koth wrote: »

You realise people can actually change their position without being shamed into it. It shows respect for the other person to not attempt to shame them. Why can you not discuss this topic and leave the shaming at the door?

Explain in simple and clear language why you view abortion as wrong.

The shame arises out of a realisation not before, so its not shaming INTO anything. the shame comes AFTER. One can realise what has been done and be shameless about it, like a burglar realising the suffering they've caused, but not giving a toss. I am hoping the realisation provokes shame, which leads to change, rather than shamelessness that leads to a hardening of heart.

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

The shame arises out of a realisation not before, so its not shaming INTO anything. the shame comes AFTER. One can realise what has been done and be shameless about it, like a burglar realising the suffering they've caused, but not giving a toss. I am hoping the realisation provokes shame, which leads to change, rather than shamelessness that leads to a hardening of heart.

You posted a link in an attempt to cause shame in women who have had an abortion, that's pretty much a dictionary definition of shaming someone.

Have you anything other than that to add to this discussion?

Sarky

So how's that heart of yours doing after today, Jimi? I'm assuming you've actually read your own posts and understand how such ugly words that paint women as murderers that should be ashamed of themselves caused great offence and harm. Remember how you posted that link in an attempt to shame any women here who've had abortions? You must remember, you posted it more than once...

Any remorse? Even a little bit? No desire to change?

shruikan2553

JimiTime wrote: »

Anyway guys, I'll post that link again. I hope you can get around to reading it. I thought it was powerful testimony, but I would wouldn't I

http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/

Had a look at the link, is there something I should specifically be looking at? Read some of the stories and not getting any of dem feels. Did you know if your mother had swallowed that night you wouldnt have been born either? Guess we better ban that too.

JimiTime

koth wrote: »

You posted a link in an attempt to cause shame in women who have had an abortion, that's pretty much a dictionary definition of shaming someone.

Its not you know. Shaming someone is quite different than hoping that someone feels shame at realising something they do/have done is wrong.

Lets take a murderer. A murderer is imprisoned, castigated, becomes a figure of shame etc. WHAT I WOULD DESIRE, is that shame would actually arise in a murderer and provoke a change in them. You see the difference? Did you see Dr Emma earlier talking about a shame that arose in her? Who was it that 'shamed her'? Noone. The shame arose in her from a realisation of a something she saw as a wrong.
I'm not sure if you are just being obtuse, but I've given you the benefit of the doubt, you being a bit more pleasant than others in my experience. If you are not being obtuse though, can you now see the important distinction?

Sarky

That's pretty messed up.

JimiTime

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Had a look at the link, is there something I should specifically be looking at? Read some of the stories and not getting any of dem feels. Did you know if your mother had swallowed that night you wouldnt have been born either? Guess we better ban that too.

Crudity aside, if I hadn't have existed, there would have been nothing to kill. The people in those testimonies exist, in spite of an attempt to end their lives. It shows the reality of what abortion is destroying.

Quatermain

And yet your signature states that "love builds up", not "shame builds up". Is creating an air of bitterness and divisive anger among people like this evidence of any sort of love? I suppose in a Biblical context, it would be. Feeling shame for having done nothing wrong is pretty damned Christian. Keep flying that flag high.

Sarky

And here you are back to trying to shame people.

shruikan2553

JimiTime wrote: »

Crudity aside, if I hadn't have existed, there would have been nothing to kill. The people in those testimonies exist, in spite of an attempt to end their lives. It shows the reality of what abortion is destroying.

What is it destroying that a period doesnt? If life began at conception like you said then what happens that all of a sudden turns sperm and egg into life?

EDIT: I still dont know what Im meant to be getting feels from on that site.

Pherekydes

JimiTime wrote: »

Did you see Dr Emma earlier talking about a shame that arose in her?

Nope.

She explicitly says she didn't have any guilt or shame.

JimiTime

Pherekydes wrote: »

Nope.

She explicitly says she didn't have any guilt or shame.

Not about abortion, but rather for being silent. you must have missed that bit

JimiTime

shruikan2553 wrote: »

What is it destroying that a period doesnt? If life began at conception like you said then what happens that all of a sudden turns sperm and egg into life?

At the instant of fertilization, your baby's genes and gender are set. It is the very first moment that a new unique human being has come into existence. It is far more than the sum of its parts. Left interrupted, an egg remains an egg, a sperm a sperm. A fertilised egg though, well, thats the start of a journey that should blow your mind.

JimiTime

Quatermain wrote: »

And yet your signature states that "love builds up", not "shame builds up". Is creating an air of bitterness and divisive anger among people like this evidence of any sort of love? I suppose in a Biblical context, it would be. Feeling shame for having done nothing wrong is pretty damned Christian. Keep flying that flag high.

Ignoring wrongdoing is the furthest thing from Love.

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

Its not you know. Shaming someone is quite different than hoping that someone feels shame at realising something they do/have done is wrong.

Agreed. But you posted a link in an attempt to cause shame. If someone else had posted the link, then you could possibly say you weren't shaming the women. But by posting the link you engaged in shamed activity.

Lets take a murderer. A murderer is imprisoned, castigated, becomes a figure of shame etc. WHAT I WOULD DESIRE, is that shame would actually arise in a murderer and provoke a change in them. You see the difference?

But why the need for shame? I'd be happy that he/she stopped killing irrespective of feeling shame. Heck getting to feel empathy/love towards other people would be much better as it would be more likely to stop the desire to kill. Feeling shame would be more likely to feed into a downward spiral of negative thoughts. These negative thoughts grow and grow until they potentially kill again in reaction to these negative thoughts. Self-esteem is better for character building compared to shame IMHO.

Did you see Dr Emma earlier talking about a shame that arose in her? Who was it that 'shamed her'? Noone. The shame arose in her from a realisation of a something she saw as a wrong.

So? That doesn't negate what I view as your attempt at shaming on this thread.

I'm not sure if you are just being obtuse, but I've given you the benefit of the doubt, you being a bit more pleasant than others in my experience. If you are not being obtuse though, can you now see the important distinction?

I assure you I'm not being obtuse. The gears may not always be working to maximum efficiency though. I'm just giving my honest opinion/reaction to what you've posted. Not more or less.

Sarky

JimiTime wrote: »

At the instant of fertilization, your baby's genes and gender are set.

Except they're not.

It is the very first moment that a new unique human being has come into existence.

Except it's not.

It is far more than the sum of its parts. Left interrupted, an egg remains an egg, a sperm a sperm. A fertilised egg though, well, thats the start of a journey that should blow your mind.

There are nearly eight billion of us on the planet right now. It's not quite as amazing as you seem to think it is.

Pherekydes

JimiTime wrote: »

It is the very first moment that a new unique human being has come into existence.

You (for some reason) think a zygote is a human being. It isn't. It doesn't have a brain, and won't have for many weeks. All it is is two sets of instructions.

shruikan2553

JimiTime wrote: »

At the instant of fertilization, your baby's genes and gender are set. It is the very first moment that a new unique human being has come into existence. It is far more than the sum of its parts. Left interrupted, an egg remains an egg, a sperm a sperm. A fertilised egg though, well, thats the start of a journey that should blow your mind.

Umm, it is exactly just the sum of the parts. Everything about a baby develops from them.

But the egg needs a sperm and a sperm needs an egg, therefor by preventing the 2 from joining we are destroying precious lives and we should do the best to stop that from happening right?

JimiTime

koth wrote: »

Agreed. But you posted a link in an attempt to cause shame. If someone else had posted the link, then you could possibly say you weren't shaming the women. But by posting the link you engaged in shamed activity.

Yes, but not to shame people. Shaming someone would be, 'Hey you, Koth, you murderous fecker' etc etc. Posting something at nobody in particular, in the hope that some anonymous people read it and it causes shame to arise is something completely different.

But why the need for shame? I'd be happy that he/she stopped killing irrespective of feeling shame.

Why not? Its a natural feeling arising out of remorse for wrongdoing. Why the fear of it?

Heck getting to feel empathy/love towards other people would be much better as it would be more likely to stop the desire to kill.

You say that as if its mutually exclusive. With a feeling of love, would obviously come a feeling of shame of the deeds committed already.

Again, I'm not sure why you insist on knawing this bone. Whats wrong with feeling shame at wrongdoing? Is it not better than shamelessness?

Feeling shame would be more likely to feed into a downward spiral of negative thoughts. These negative thoughts grow and grow until they potentially kill again in reaction to these negative thoughts. Self-esteem is better for character building compared to shame IMHO.

Ahh, the plot thickens. You raise a valid point, in that just as anger can consume, so can guilt and shame. Its still something that naturally occurs though. In the context of abortion, it is important that people who find it hard to deal with an abortion they've had, have support. There are many groups for such women.

I assure you I'm not being obtuse. The gears may not always be working to maximum efficiency though. I'm just giving my honest opinion/reaction to what you've posted. Not more or less.

Happy to hear it.

JimiTime

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Umm, it is exactly just the sum of the parts. Everything about a baby develops from them.

But the egg needs a sperm and a sperm needs an egg, therefor by preventing the 2 from joining we are destroying precious lives and we should do the best to stop that from happening right?

No. An egg is an egg, a sperm a sperm, and if they never meet, the egg is an egg, and the sperm a sperm. Its only when they meet do they become something different. If they never meet, then there is nothing to destroy Not sure if you've really thought about this

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

Yes, but not to shame people. Shaming someone would be, 'Hey you, Koth, you murderous fecker' etc etc. Posting something at nobody in particular, in the hope that some anonymous people read it and it causes shame to arise is something completely different.

I'd disagree with that. Just because an action is on a larger scale doesn't mean it isn't similar to directing it at one person. It's the intent that matters. You said yourself that you hoped some women would feel shame and rethink their feelings on their abortion.

Why not? Its a natural feeling arising out of remorse for wrongdoing. Why the fear of it?

I don't fear it. I just don't think it's a positive tool to use to try and change a persons opinion on something. Making people feel bad/bullied instantly puts them on the defensive and won't make them very amenable to changing.

You say that as if its mutually exclusive. With a feeling of love, would obviously come a feeling of shame of the deeds committed already.

Again, I'm not sure why you insist on knawing this bone. Whats wrong with feeling shame at wrongdoing? Is it not better than shamelessness?

Possibly. but you're not working from a foundation of shame. If you only fill their minds with shame you run the very real risk of doing more damage than good.

Ahh, the plot thickens. You raise a valid point, in that just as anger can consume, so can guilt and shame. Its still something that naturally occurs though. In the context of abortion, it is important that people who find it hard to deal with an abortion they've had, have support. There are many groups for such women.

Absolutely women should get any support they might need after an abortion. If some feel negatively because of it then they should get the help. Conversely, if women don't feel negatively about it then they shouldn't have to put up with people bullying them with "you killed a person".

Quatermain

JimiTime wrote: »

Ignoring wrongdoing is the furthest thing from Love.

Are you familiar with the saying "judge not, lest ye be judged"? It's a big thing in particular circles.

shruikan2553

JimiTime wrote: »

No. An egg is an egg, a sperm a sperm, and if they never meet, the egg is an egg, and the sperm a sperm. Its only when they meet do they become something different. If they never meet, then there is nothing to destroy Not sure if you've really thought about this

And if a fertilised egg never grows into a child then theres nothing to destroy

maguic24

JimiTime wrote: »

At the instant of fertilization, your baby's genes and gender are set. It is the very first moment that a new unique human being has come into existence. It is far more than the sum of its parts. Left interrupted, an egg remains an egg, a sperm a sperm. A fertilised egg though, well, thats the start of a journey that should blow your mind.

What's your opinion on the after morning pill?

The Black Oil

swampgas wrote: »

Hospitals should absolutely NOT be allowed to have their own "ethos"!

State provided institutions such as hospitals should have no ethos beyond that of the state itself. A modern hospital should be run according to medical best practice and the law of the land - end of story. Allowing a tiny number of clergy to interfere in medical treatments provided to society at large is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Isn't part of the bickering over Obama's health care law related to the possible provision of contraception options for employees (or payment for), and essentially that some employers reject this because they feel it is an attack on their religious freedom? Seems to be part of the culture wars in the US.

Obliq

JimiTime wrote: »

Listening to those abortion survivors IMO, brings home the lives destroyed by abortion.

Oh dear. In much the same way as you tend to torture yourself with thoughts of how, if you had aborted any of your children, they wouldn't be here as the lovely individuals they are? SURELY you can see the interestingly skewed psychology of looking at abortion survivors and seeing the ones that died and looking at your child and seeing what potentially you might not have known and loved?

Strange. That is strange to me, and probably related to catholic ritual of corporal mortification. Is there a psychological version of that folks?

koth wrote: »

You realise people can actually change their position without being shamed into it. It shows respect for the other person to not attempt to shame them. Why can you not discuss this topic and leave the shaming at the door?

I'm getting the distinct impression that we're being "shame trolled" (my makey-upey phrase - you're all welcome!) as Jimi has just realised how much it upsets people to be shamed and has been practicing hard at it all day. Sometimes I do wish karma was a real thing......it sounds good right now

28064212

http://www.45millionvoices.org/your-voices.html

I hope some people can read that link and realise the hurt they've caused, the stigmatisation and pain that they've caused others to feel. I hope they can read it and feel shame at the position they've held.

gaynorvader

JimiTime wrote: »

At the instant of fertilization, your baby's genes and gender are set. It is the very first moment that a new unique human being has come into existence. It is far more than the sum of its parts. Left interrupted, an egg remains an egg, a sperm a sperm. A fertilised egg though, well, thats the start of a journey that should blow your mind.

So what should be the punishment for a woman who has had an abortion, in your view?

IT-Guy

Apologies in advance for the long post!

I'm amazed Jimi's still harping on about how he's not trying to shame anybody, just trying to induce a sense of shame in those sluts women who had the cheek to not conform to "ooh a lickle precious baaaaaby" mentality and decided the time wasn't right for them to be a mother.

I know what it's like to shame someone intentionally (I say intentionally here because I knew something was up but didn't want to deal with it and resorted to moral 'one-upmanship' in order to shame her into silence i.e being an a**hole). I posted this in an abortion thread on AH:

"I'm pro choice after years of having guilt tripping, anti abortionists shoving their views down my throat via the popular Catholic mindset of assuming they can tell other people how to live their lives and what they can/can't do with their bodies. Took a hard lesson for me to realise how totally insensitive it can be:

I've bolded the part above that rings home the most for me. I was going out with a girl from Donaghmede who had a 5 year old son at the time, lovely happy kid and I got on well with both him and his father. Me and the ex were driving somewhere and the issue of abortion came up, I went on a bit of a rant about the rights of the child to life etc and I cringe now thinking about it. She stayed kinda quiet but just said that people are different and I thought no more of it. A couple of weeks later we were out and she was very quiet and said she wanted to talk so we went for a walk. She told me how she got pregnant by the father of her kid again after a few too many drinks one Xmas, a few years before we met. She couldn't stand her ex and didn't want another kid by him and was struggling financially with raising 1 child so her and the ex went for a trip to London and she had an abortion. There are fewer moments in my life when I realised how arrogant I'd been to assume I should be allowed tell any woman what she can or can't do with her body. The moral righteousness of my stance wasn't long being dissolved by the realities of modern life. It also made me reassess whether I'd have gone out with her if I'd known this about her. The more mature me now would say yes, the me back then probably no.

IMO, making abortion legal in this country doesn't mean every woman will want one come an unplanned pregnancy. It means that there is a choice there if she wants it, that choice isn't an easy one to make despite pro-choicers being portrayed as cold hearted baby killers. Abortion should be made available as a service by the HSE as the current "out of sight out of mind" approach is wrong. Dedicated, independent clinics would have too high a profile until the stigma of abortion is tempered by reality."

So to Jimi and his ilk, I feel shame for guilt tripping someone I cared about for deciding what's best for her and attempting to impose my ill-considered worldview on her. The only reason she ever felt bad was having to listen to people arrogantly asserting how something they'll never experience should be.

The rights of a woman supersede those (if any) of a foetus and I hope one day with more empathy and maturity, you'll come to see this too though hopefully without hurting someone close to you.

P.S. The ex I mention above has gone on to have 2 children with her current partner and is very happy as opposed to struggling to raise 2 kids and getting more depressed because of her situation. I'm delighted for her and glad she's doing well, I will however always cringe at my naivety back then and feel annoyed and angry at the attitude in Ireland that sees women who want or need an abortion as a problem to be exported.