Abortion Discussion

anne.oneemas

Dunno if there was a link already posted to this, but it's a powerful testimony: http://jrnl.ie/1016310

swampgas

JimiTime wrote: »

Why not? It [shame] is a natural feeling arising out of remorse for wrongdoing. Why the fear of it?

and

Whats wrong with feeling shame at wrongdoing? Is it not better than shamelessness?

Do you actually enjoy feeling shame?

IMO you seem to have a very Catholic obsession with shame and guilt. Do you buy into the idea that we are all naturally sinful and that shame and guilt are natural feelings that we should wallow in in order to expiate our inherent wickedness?

I'm not being smart here, I'm genuinely interested ...

circadian

JimiTime, are you male?

Cabaal

JimiTime, I'll ask this for the third time.

What "support" exactly do you propose to setup in these situations? (see link for situations)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85892311&postcount=739

Now since you'll likely ignore that question, here's another question which you've now been asked for the forth time that you'll also ignore I'd imagine.

What's your opinion on the after morning pill?

swampgas

Cabaal wrote: »

JimiTime, I'll ask this for the third time.

What "support" exactly do you propose to setup in these situations? (see link for situations)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85892311&postcount=739

Now since you'll likely ignore that question, here's another question which you've now been asked for the forth time that you'll also ignore I'd imagine.

What's your opinion on the after morning pill?

I hope JimiTime does comes back and answer those questions, but I think it's unlikely. The reason being that he is likely to be incapable of answering. Actually having to think through the consequences of his declared values as applied to those scenarios would make his head hurt, so he'll simply avoid thinking about it, and will go back to repeating the same old tired nonsense. I wouldn't be surprised if he simply re-posted the original link again.

This is the pattern I've seen with other religious posters at any rate.

doctoremma

JimiTime wrote: »

Its not you know. Shaming someone is quite different than hoping that someone feels shame at realising something they do/have done is wrong....Did you see Dr Emma earlier talking about a shame that arose in her? Who was it that 'shamed her'? Noone. The shame arose in her from a realisation of a something she saw as a wrong.

I agree. Nobody prompted or forced me to feel ashamed at my silence. No girl here (or on other threads) has, to my knowledge, posted anything along the lines of "Women who keep silent about this are letting us all down/complicit with the pro-lifers/an affront to feminism/etc". No girl ever levelled any accusation or posted a video with the intent of inducing this negative emotion.

The above would have to be false in order for you to claim parallels with what you are doing. It is not false. To therefore use my admission of shame for keeping silent as some kind of support for your most recent tactics is inappropriate.

You posted information with the explicit intent of directly shaming. Over more recent pages, you have backtracked (because you've realised that admitting to directly shaming is pretty unsavoury) to a position where you claim to hope to plant the seeds of a shame that will later arise (as if by magic, nothing to do with your activities whatsoever, of course not). As if this somehow makes it better...

Some girls have no shame about this. Some girls may find themselves beginning to feel shame, perhaps when they look at their children, perhaps when they change their position on abortion, I don't know. I hope not - it's an entirely pointless emotion at that stage. But far fewer girls than you imagine will respond to your videos and testimonies with the response you are looking for. Not least because my own opinion, and that I've garnered from other girls, would suggest that many of us feel very little, if any, emotional fall-out from a termination. The key question, the answer to which should clue you in as to why your tactics are next to useless, is this: what is your response when someone tries to make you feel bad about something you don't think you should feel bad about?

JimiTime

doctoremma wrote: »

I agree. Nobody prompted or forced me to feel ashamed at my silence. No girl here (or on other threads) has, to my knowledge, posted anything along the lines of "Women who keep silent about this are letting us all down/complicit with the pro-lifers/an affront to feminism/etc". No girl ever levelled any accusation or posted a video with the intent of inducing this negative emotion.

The above would have to be false in order for you to claim parallels with what you are doing. It is not false. To therefore use my admission of shame for keeping silent as some kind of support for your most recent tactics is inappropriate.

You posted information with the explicit intent of directly shaming. Over more recent pages, you have backtracked (because you've realised that admitting to directly shaming is pretty unsavoury) to a position where you claim to hope to plant the seeds of a shame that will later arise (as if by magic, nothing to do with your activities whatsoever, of course not). As if this somehow makes it better...

Some girls have no shame about this. Some girls may find themselves beginning to feel shame, perhaps when they look at their children, perhaps when they change their position on abortion, I don't know. I hope not - it's an entirely pointless emotion at that stage. But far fewer girls than you imagine will respond to your videos and testimonies with the response you are looking for. Not least because my own opinion, and that I've garnered from other girls, would suggest that many of us feel very little, if any, emotional fall-out from a termination. The key question, the answer to which should clue you in as to why your tactics are next to useless, is this: what is your response when someone tries to make you feel bad about something you don't think you should feel bad about?

Ok, I'll agree to disagree. Its all rather semantic anyway. I think its just another example of distraction tactics anyway.

When all those who advocate and partake in abortion realise what they destroy, I remain hopeful that more and more people will see the reality, and feel ashamed for the role they've played in killing these developing humans. I don't know why people have an issue with that. The remorseful shame i talk about is something that takes place within a person, not without, and is quite a natural progression when one realise's wrongdoing. But then, you've all managed to take the groupthink moral high-ground by deliberately projecting something that isn't so on your common enemy. How very religious of you all

Thought this was a good article:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-moral-and-intellectual-bankruptcy-of-the-pro-abortion-movement-101846/

Sarky

You're wrong, so you'll agree to disagree.
And you try to lecture us on shame? Amazing.

lazygal

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, I'll agree to disagree. Its all rather semantic anyway. I think its just another example of distraction tactics anyway.

When all those who advocate and partake in abortion realise what they destroy, I remain hopeful that more and more people will see the reality, and feel ashamed for the role they've played in killing these developing humans. I don't know why people have an issue with that. The remorseful shame i talk about is something that takes place within a person, not without, and is quite a natural progression when one realise's wrongdoing. But then, you've all managed to take the groupthink moral high-ground by deliberately projecting something that isn't so on your common enemy. How very religious of you all

Thought this was a good article:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-moral-and-intellectual-bankruptcy-of-the-pro-abortion-movement-101846/

Are you ashamed of anything you've done?

Pherekydes

JimiTime wrote: »

But then, you've all managed to take the groupthink moral high-ground by deliberately projecting something that isn't so on your common enemy. How very religious of you all

Groupthink? Who'd have thunk? I guess only Christians have independent thoughts...

Oh, and puleeeze, "moral high-ground"? The irony is deafening.



Or some such...

Delirium

I always find it weird when a religious person uses the word religious as some sort of insult.

JimiTime

lazygal wrote: »

Are you ashamed of anything you've done?

Most definitely! Many times. Like I said, its a positive thing that invokes positive change. I.E. It should motivate one to stop, or at least try to stop, the thing they were ashamed of. Sometimes it been pointed out to me, I never spun it as, 'You are trying to shame me' though. I was thankful that I had a friend who loved me enough not to ignore my iniquity.

Turtwig

JimiTime wrote: »

Thought this was a good article:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-moral-and-intellectual-bankruptcy-of-the-pro-abortion-movement-101846/

That link is all about the pro-abortion side. You may thought it was good I thought it was vapid nonsense. Nothing really in it against abortion other than wonderful looking ultrasounds conveniently missing the descriptions of foetus that might be lacking a skull. It's mostly focused on the actions of people supporting abortion. Which is like assuming all Catholics follow the line of child abusing priests. An idiotic assumption to be sure. So, yeah, nothing really there against actual abortions. Just an attempt to poison the well of the people who support others having the choice. Not really the makings of a good article.

Great mudslinger though.

JimiTime

koth wrote: »

I always find it weird when a religious person uses the word religious as some sort of insult.

I'm not religious I hate religiosity.

Delirium

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm not religious I hate religiosity.

you're not a Christian?

lazygal

JimiTime wrote: »

Most definitely! Many times. Like I said, its a positive thing that invokes positive change. I.E. It should motivate one to stop, or at least try to stop, the thing they were ashamed of. Sometimes it been pointed out to me, I never spun it as, 'You are trying to shame me' though. I was thankful that I had a friend who loved me enough not to ignore my iniquity.

What were you ashamed of that motivated you to change?

JimiTime

Jernal wrote: »

That link is all about the pro-abortion side. You may thought it was good I thought it was vapid nonsense. Nothing really in it against abortion other than wonderful looking ultrasounds conveniently missing the descriptions of foetus that might be lacking a skull. It's mostly focused on the actions of people supporting abortion. Which is like assuming all Catholics follow the line of child abusing priests. An idiotic assumption to be sure. So, yeah, nothing really there against actual abortions. Just an attempt to poison the well of the people who support others having the choice. Not really the makings of a good article.

Great mudslinger though.

Ahh, but you would say that wouldn't you.

JimiTime

lazygal wrote: »

What were you ashamed of that motivated you to change?

None of your business tbh. Now if someone had 'shamed me', it would be public and you'd know. Thats the difference that everyone here has missed betweene the two you see

shruikan2553

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok, I'll agree to disagree. Its all rather semantic anyway. I think its just another example of distraction tactics anyway.

When all those who advocate and partake in abortion realise what they destroy, I remain hopeful that more and more people will see the reality, and feel ashamed for the role they've played in killing these developing humans. I don't know why people have an issue with that. The remorseful shame i talk about is something that takes place within a person, not without, and is quite a natural progression when one realise's wrongdoing. But then, you've all managed to take the groupthink moral high-ground by deliberately projecting something that isn't so on your common enemy. How very religious of you all

Thought this was a good article:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-moral-and-intellectual-bankruptcy-of-the-pro-abortion-movement-101846/

What about the lives you destroy by not protecting the eggs and sperm? Who are you to judge when you dont care about the lives of children before fertilization. You're no better than the people you think should feel shame!

JimiTime

koth wrote: »

you're not a Christian?

Now you ARE being obtuse

lazygal

JimiTime wrote: »

None of your business tbh. Now if someone had 'shamed me', it would be public and you'd know. Thats the difference that everyone here has missed betweene the two you see

Why do you want to publicly create shame for women who've had abortions?

doctoremma

JimiTime wrote: »

When all those who advocate and partake in abortion realise what they destroy, I remain hopeful that more and more people will see the reality, and feel ashamed for the role they've played in killing these developing humans. I don't know why people have an issue with that. The remorseful shame i talk about is something that takes place within a person, not without, and is quite a natural progression when one realise's wrongdoing

Do you understand how patronising you are being? Between us, there is only one who is in a position to recognise the reality of an abortion. It isn't you.

I had a termination. I destroyed a potential life. I killed an appleseed baby.

I realise perfectly well what I did, but I'm not sorry I did it. I wasn't sorry or ashamed at the time and I'm not sorry or ashamed now. That's not a statement of defiance, a bolshy child refusing to apologise because they're being told to. I just don't feel those things.

However, it's clear that my lack of remorse or sorrow is causing you some issue. Because you can't understand my feelings, you assume I must be missing something, not quite grasping the enormity of my actions, perhaps?

I will repeat. There was no enormity. It wasn't a problematic choice for me.

How about you actually deal with that? Accept what I'm saying? Or at least give me credit for having the nous to understand what I did to my body and to the life that was growing inside it? Perhaps then there might be reasonable dialogue, rather than this repetition of denial from you, who can never actually know what it's like.

And if you won't accept it from me (after all, I live in a wickedly permissive society), you only need to examine the women in your own country (or further afield) to see that I'm not that different. Women have always had abortions, in the face of shame, against the laws and rules of the society they live in. They have risked ostracism and quite often their own health in order to have abortions. You yourself admit that you've only seen one of a handful of your circle suffer from negative emotions after an abortion.

That's a lot of women you're condescending to there, Jimi. I bet you think none of them realised what they were doing either.

Turtwig

JimiTime wrote: »

Ahh, but you would say that wouldn't you.

*Sigh* Fine.

i) Neither side is morally bankrupt in this debate. Both sides are so vehement in the discussion because human rights make a strong moral claim on them.
ii) Ultrasounds are beautiful but just because something is beautiful doesn't make it right. Likewise something being ugly doesn't make it wrong. Reality is very very grey. The ultrasound doesn't tell you anything about the context in which the woman's life is in. Nor does it tell you everything about the foetus. In fact, to make the assessment based purely on the ultrasound is a little shallow.
iii) Everyone here on this forum abhors infanticide and the actions of Gosnell.
iv) Just like there is stories of abortion survivors there is also stories of womens who've had abortion and worse women who needed them. No experience by anyone should be ignored or declared the "right" one. Everyone's voice should be heard and not shot down.
v) It's unclear whether pro-life numbers are growing. Certainly not in Ireland anyway. But the article you linked to wasn't Irish.
vi) Last time I checked Obamacare has nothing to do with the ethics of abortion. Nor, it is a pro abortion policy. Also that's a terrible term. I don't know of anyone who'd wish an abortion on anybody. "What do we want!? Abortions for everybody! ! ! When we do want them? Now!" Quite the strawman.
vii) No idea what those under cover videos are. Once again though it's ad hominem tu quoque and poisoning the well. No actual argument of substance against the procedure of abortion.
viii) Pointless stuff about Planned Parenthood. Their opinions doesn't represent mine. There might be some similarities but heck I've got some similar opinions with the Pope too!
ix) Intuitions are awful for making judgements about reality. Some animals look to us like they're smiling at us and happy. The reality is that's our intuitions and feelings are telling us they are. The animal may actually be in some distress but because they're exhibiting the markers the human brain is looking for in making the emotional assessment we think they're happy and calm.
People are also terrible judges of randomness. (Show them a picture and they'll always assume the random pattern cannot appear evenly spaced.) So, the notion that a parent can tell by intuition or feeling when something comes alive is Hollywood nonsense.
A dead foetus can provide a woman with "kicks" in a similar vein to a living one. I don't really need to elaborate how awful an experience that realisation must be!
x) Using a newspaper report on a scientific paper to dismiss a scientific paper is well laughable. The ethics paper in question which I've no doubt you haven't understood. Nor has the guy who linked to it. (Because if he had he wouldn't have just lazily linked to the Telegraphs shoddy report of it. I mean, seriously, is it that hard to link to the actual paper?) The whole idea of such papers is to a present a moral dilemma and push moral frameworks to extremes. In other words, it's not meant to be taken literally!
xi) A television ad? Seriously? No commercial makes a flawless philosophical argument.
xii) Despicable protests? Again, do you want us to dismiss all pro-life arguments on the imbecile actions of Youth Defence? No, and I don't want to either. The actions of protesters isn't exactly an argument for or against anything.
xiii) "Students on Campus" being idiots. I can't even believe that someone would try to use that demographic as a means to argue for or against something!
xiv) Men taking sides for women is awful?

There ya go. Every point in the article addressed.
Still want to say it's a good article?

maguic24

JimiTime, If you could take the time to answer my question, that would be great. All I am looking for is your opinion....

Just incase you forgot, I bolded the question below.

What is your opinion on the morning after pill?

Pretty please? I've asked this to a dozen prolifers and none of them want to answer it. Why? I don't know. One girl did answer it, as I mentioned earlier. She had no problems with the after morning pill but was very prolife........As I have said before, it baffled me, so I am looking for more prolife opinions on it.

Thanks in advance!!!:) <<<<<< Look I even left a smiley. Here's three more.

fatmammycat

doctoremma wrote: »

Do you understand how patronising you are being? Between us, there is only one who is in a position to recognise the reality of an abortion. It isn't you.

I had a termination. I destroyed a potential life. I killed an appleseed baby.

I realise perfectly well what I did, but I'm not sorry I did it. I wasn't sorry or ashamed at the time and I'm not sorry or ashamed now. That's not a statement of defiance, a bolshy child refusing to apologise because they're being told to. I just don't feel those things.

However, it's clear that my lack of remorse or sorrow is causing you some issue. Because you can't understand my feelings, you assume I must be missing something, not quite grasping the enormity of my actions, perhaps?

I will repeat. There was no enormity. It wasn't a problematic choice for me.

How about you actually deal with that? Accept what I'm saying? Or at least give me credit for having the nous to understand what I did to my body and to the life that was growing inside it? Perhaps then there might be reasonable dialogue, rather than this repetition of denial from you, who can never actually know what it's like.

And if you won't accept it from me (after all, I live in a wickedly permissive society), you only need to examine the women in your own country (or further afield) to see that I'm not that different. Women have always had abortions, in the face of shame, against the laws and rules of the society they live in. They have risked ostracism and quite often their own health in order to have abortions. You yourself admit that you've only seen one of a handful of your circle suffer from negative emotions after an abortion.

That's a lot of women you're condescending to there, Jimi. I bet you think none of them realised what they were doing either.

I'm 40 years old, and among the circle of women I know a number of women have had abortions, and only one has a hint of regret- and even then she wouldn't try use that to stop other women doing what is best for them. The others have no regrets at all, NONE. Some of them are married, some are single, some are mothers.
Regret is such a wasted emotion any way, and not unique to abortion. I regret buying the house I'm in when I did. But hey, I'm not going to try stop other people buying houses.
Doctor Emma, I think you might be fighting something of a losing battle trying to reason with J, his ideas are set, and as you correctly observe, he will never be in a position to contemplate the termination of a pregnancy, so why would be need to stretch his empathy band that far.

Lingua Franca

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm not religious I hate religiosity.

And yet you fetishise shame like a good Catholic.

JimiTime wrote: »

Other peoples rhetoric aside. Shame is something I desire to arise in myself when I have done wrong, and I use it to provoke change in me. Shamelessness is the enemy IMO. So when I talk of shame in the context of abortion, I talk of a shame that arises with the realisation of wrongdoing, rather than the pressures of society. In the context of the site I posted, I hope that the testimony of the people who survived abortion, will show what could have been destroyed in their cases, and IS destroyed in 'successful' abortions. I'm hoping for a realisation, a dawning within people. In this shame, I hope it provokes them to change, just as my shame at my wrongdoings, provoke me.

That ^ is just weird.

coolhull

But really Jimi, what possible difference could it make to you whether or not a woman or young girl feels any shame about an action they might have taken in the past.
Why do you feel that you are responsible for the mind and soul of someone else? Didn't some fella once say, "Judge not, lest ye be judged"?
Chill out, man!

Cabaal

Jimi, it's about the 7th time been asked this now and you've ignored it each time.

What is you're position on the morning after pill?

Frito

JimiTime wrote: »

None of your business tbh. Now if someone had 'shamed me', it would be public and you'd know. Thats the difference that everyone here has missed betweene the two you see

But shame occurs within the public realm, ie there has to be another to provoke shame. I can be ashamed of myself, but I can't be shamed by myself. That's what posters are pointing out.

It's semantical, but I think you mean regret at best, or remorse at worst.

So if you were to state that you hope women feel regretful about abortions then yes, some women will. It still doesn't imply that the abortion was wrong, or that they would change their decision. Is there any point hoping that someone regrets something if they don't then concur with your opinion?

But if you were to state you hope women are remorseful about abortion, then you have to convince us that abortion is inherently wrong. Posting links to people who survived abortion does not achieve this. For every abortion survivor there are women who died or were left infertile due to the lack of (legal) abortion. You have to argue why the right to life of a foetus overrides the right to bodily integrity of a woman. (I'm using bodily integrity here as I'm assuming you don't have a problem with abortion where competing rights to life are at stake.)

I think you would have better served yourself if you'd just stated that you thought abortion was wrong, and that the link you posted might help people to change their minds about it. Using "hope" and "shame" just taints the air with a whiff of schadenfreude.

gaynorvader

Cabaal wrote: »

Jimi, it's about the 7th time been asked this now and you've ignored it each time.

What is you're position on the morning after pill?

Maybe he doesn't want to answer the question. If that is the case though, it would be polite to say as much.