Abortion Discussion

PopePalpatine

I'm surprised no-one mentioned the UN yesterday calling on Ireland to have a referendum on abortion: http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0622/709782-un-committee-social-cultural-rights-ireland/

Dan_Solo

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'm surprised no-one mentioned the UN yesterday calling on Ireland to have a referendum on abortion: http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0622/709782-un-committee-social-cultural-rights-ireland/

Much as I would welcome such a referendum I don't think the UN has a moral leg to stand on calling for anybody to do anything really.

Cabaal

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Much as I would welcome such a referendum I don't think the UN has a moral leg to stand on calling for anybody to do anything really.

If you look at any organisation you'll nite they've all done questionable things, some darker then others.

Very few organisations and country's for that matter don't have a moral left to stand on.

Still, I'd rather go with the UN than the Vatican

Peregrinus

Funnily enough, it was the Vatican that made us have the first abortion referendum.

(OK, it was indirectly the Vatican. But you get my point.)

The Black Oil

The BAI has rejected a bunch of complaints about "balance", etc.

http://bai.newsweaver.com/1mmpnsttti514cbpybm5h6?email=true&a=6&p=48918888&t=27438305

PopePalpatine

I wonder if The Watery One is still on their board. If so, I'd hate to imagine how he took it out on his fellow board members in his reaction to that report.

lazygal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I wonder if The Watery One is still on their board. If so, I'd hate to imagine how he took it out on his fellow board members in his reaction to that report.

AFAIK he stomped off out of the BAI so he could wangle money from RTE after Pantigate.

http://www.bai.ie/index.php/2014/01/statement-on-the-resignation-of-john-waters-from-bai/

alaimacerc

The Black Oil wrote: »

The BAI has rejected a bunch of complaints about "balance", etc.

http://bai.newsweaver.com/1mmpnsttti514cbpybm5h6?email=true&a=6&p=48918888&t=27438305

These "complainants" sound like quite a jolly bunch of people to be trapped in lift with, all right.

Their idea of "balance" seems to be, if any broadcaster want to puncture my little bubble of Ireland's utterly contradictory and hypocritical laws in this area, I want a rugby scrum of people from Iona on the same programme, to shout it all down.

aloyisious

Leo Varadkar (Min for Health) statement in the Dail: 23 abortions in the republic in the last year on health grounds (as per the law), data from HSE.

Ta @alaimacerc: plus three on grounds of suicidality (weird new word). One other request for an abortion was refused.

N.I Court of Appeal overturns verdict against protester over reported harassment of Marie Stopes staff member.

alaimacerc

aloyisious wrote: »

Leo Varadkar (Min for Health) statement in the Dail: 23 abortions in the republic in the last year on health grounds (as per the law), data from HSE.

Not including a further three on grounds of suicidality, IIRC.

Odd comment from The Leo about how those numbers might be "regarded as high". Compared to the number still being routinely "exported"? Hardly.

N.I Court of Appeal overturns verdict against protester over reported harassment of Marie Stopes staff member.

Impenitent and crowing over "insufficient evidence", at that...

Absolam

aloyisious wrote: »

Leo Varadkar (Min for Health) statement in the Dail: 23 abortions in the republic in the last year on health grounds (as per the law), data from HSE.
Ta @alaimacerc: plus three on grounds of suicidality (weird new word). One other request for an abortion was refused.

alaimacerc wrote: »

Not including a further three on grounds of suicidality, IIRC.
Odd comment from The Leo about how those numbers might be "regarded as high". Compared to the number still being routinely "exported"? Hardly.

In fairness, he actually said that 26 terminations were carried out, and then went on to break it down to 3 on the grounds of risk to life of the mother on the basis of suicide, and 23 based on a physical illness or an emergency situation.
RTE broke that 23 down to 14 risk from physical illness, and 9 emergency from physical illness.
According to RTE he said that the numbers "may seem high to some" which would be a rather less odd comment, so on balance more likely to be accurate.

recedite

They should get themselves used to the word "abortions" so we know what they are talking about. The RTE guy speculated that the "Miss y" case might be among the number quoted. The word "termination" could cover a premature live delivery. Most likely these are all abortions though, or else "all except one".

Peregrinus

"Termination" is the terminology preferred by the medics, I think.

"Abortion", for the medics, includes spontaneous abortion. But "termination" = "induced abortion". Premature delivery is just that; delivery, whether or not induced, which is premature. And induced delivery is also what it says on the tin. And induced delivery may or may not be premature. (They mostly aren't - they're induced because they're late.)

recedite

In the "Miss Y" case the obstetricians agreed that she could have a termination under the terms of the new legislation, but they said it was too late for an abortion. Hence they terminated the pregnancy by an premature caesarean.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

They should get themselves used to the word "abortions" so we know what they are talking about. The RTE guy speculated that the "Miss y" case might be among the number quoted. The word "termination" could cover a premature live delivery. Most likely these are all abortions though, or else "all except one".

Well, the Rte report used the term 'terminations of pregnancy', which I suspect is what we'll see in the actual report; the term abortion is about as unspecific as termination, but has the added disadvantage of being a rather politically charged term, so it's not surprising that it's not being used even without the preferred nomenclature pointed out by Peregrinus.

Termination of pregnancy also leaves room for the fact that the pregnancy may be terminated without terminating the life of the foetus, which would mean that cases like the Y case could (at least in theory, if not I suspect in practice) be included in those statistics. In practice, I suspect it might be asked how many live births resulted from the terminations, which would lead to those cases being noted anyway.

recedite

As the English language is proving inadequate for this uniquely Irish issue, perhaps we should consider making up some new words "as Gaeilge" for inclusion in next years annual report?

lazygal

Abórtíon?

recedite

Then refine that into the two types; Abórtíon mór and Abórtíon beag, depending on whether it results in a live delivery.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

As the English language is proving inadequate for this uniquely Irish issue, perhaps we should consider making up some new words "as Gaeilge" for inclusion in next years annual report?

I don't think the language is inadequate; it's simply unlikely the HSE is considering anything more than the most efficient way of conveying what is not much more than a briefing note on its' activities under the Act, as it's obliged to do. They're probably not overly concerned about people debating the potential meanings of the words used to describe what was done, because the actual specifics of what was done is included in the bodies of their reports.

There seems to be an odd need to split hairs over what the words termination or abortion should or shouldn't include.. if there is a need in a particular discussion for more information than the word on it's own conveys, why not just use more words to convey it.

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

There seems to be an odd need to split hairs over what the words termination or abortion should or shouldn't include..

Its not like you to be so relaxed over definitions. Have you been at the vodka again?

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

Its not like you to be so relaxed over definitions. Have you been at the vodka again?

I remain firmly committed to robust and accurate definitions!

But it's a bit silly to imagine that the words termination and abortion can be exclusively definitive in the context without any qualification. More sensible to just use enough words to describe what is specifically meant, and avoid a debate of the word, which will only end up in using enough words to describe what is specifically meant anyway.

aloyisious

Another 5 to 4 decision by the United States Supreme Court on state laws.

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/uncucumbered/supreme_court_blocks_texas_abortion_clinic_rules_in_the_nick_of_time?recruiter_id=17

alaimacerc

aloyisious wrote: »

Another 5 to 4 decision by the United States Supreme Court

Aren't they all, these days! With Kennedy shuffling coquettishly between the two four-person "blocks", depending on... well, who knows, really?

alaimacerc

"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

Let's split hairs endlessly about "correct" terminology, or use words in an entirely slapdash manner, as fits each of our personal preferences. That's bound to go well.

aloyisious

alaimacerc wrote: »

"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

Let's split hairs endlessly about "correct" terminology, or use words in an entirely slapdash manner, as fits each of our personal preferences. That's bound to go well.

Surely, you mean P.C. wording?

alaimacerc

aloyisious wrote: »

Surely, you mean P.C. wording?

No, I mean whether we should use "preferred" legal and medical terminology, or terms with clear prior definitions, etc.

aloyisious

alaimacerc wrote: »

No, I mean whether we should use "preferred" legal and medical terminology, or terms with clear prior definitions, etc.

That'd be the day, . Sat 4th might be a day to avoid Dublin City Centre, Pro-Life has a rally then. I thought you'd like the "surely," gag before the you mean P.C. wording punchline response

PopePalpatine

Yeah, you wouldn't want to be included in the figures for the crowd if you go into Dublin city centre. :pac:

lazygal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Yeah, you wouldn't want to be included in the figures for the crowd if you go into Dublin city centre. :pac:

Yeah, you might be directly targted by Youth Defence for inclusion in its 'statistics'.

galljga1

aloyisious wrote: »

That'd be the day, . Sat 4th might be a day to avoid Dublin City Centre, Pro-Life has a rally then. I thought you'd like the "surely," gag before the you mean P.C. wording punchline response

Bstards. I am not in Dublin much these days but lately, there seems to be some bunch of muppets protesting every time I go near it. Is it expected to be large?