Abortion Discussion

swampgas · 13-08-2013 8:16pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I genuinely don't doubt that for a second. Though I suspect for many pro-abortion advocates there is no amount of pain and suffering to the unborn that is too much.

The making omelettes with cracked eggs mentality.

I think your suspicion is misplaced.

maguic24 · 13-08-2013 8:23pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Tearing Lucas limb-from-limb and crushing his skull with a forceps on the day that he was born a) an hour before he was born and b) an hour after?

Well, there's definitely a time difference.

Bannasidhe · 13-08-2013 8:44pm

maguic24 wrote: »

Well, there's definitely a time difference.

not to mention that whole dependent/no longer dependent on the body of another person for survival groove thang.

Sarky · 13-08-2013 8:50pm

swampgas wrote: »

I think your suspicion is misplaced.

That's putting it mildly. I'm not far off suspecting he checks under the bed for a stray Gosnell every night. That's how they got you, you know.

lazygal · 13-08-2013 8:56pm

I'd say my c section was pretty gruesome to watch. Ditto open heart surgery or lung transplants or repairing a third degree perineal tear. Luckily doctors don't let the fact something is a bit icky put them off performing necessary medical procedures.

Brown Bomber · 13-08-2013 9:09pm

swampgas wrote: »

I think your suspicion is misplaced.

Perhaps. Where is the cut-off point for you then? How much pain to the foetus is too much for you?

This is of course in the case of selfish abortions; not extreme cases.

lazygal · 13-08-2013 9:11pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Perhaps. Where is the cut-off point for you then? How much pain to the foetus is too much for you?

This is of course in the case of selfish abortions; not extreme cases.

What's a selfish abortion? What's an extreme case?

Bannasidhe · 13-08-2013 9:20pm

[QUOTE=lazygal;85980127]I'd say my c section was pretty gruesome to watch. Ditto open heart surgery or lung transplants or repairing a third degree perineal tear. Luckily doctors don't let the fact something is a bit icky put them off performing necessary medical procedures.[/QUOTE]

linky????

:P

lazygal · 13-08-2013 9:21pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

linky????

:P

Let me just check Wikipedia.....

swampgas · 13-08-2013 9:22pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Perhaps. Where is the cut-off point for you then? How much pain to the foetus is too much for you?

This is of course in the case of selfish abortions; not extreme cases.

I don't think there is such as thing as a selfish abortion - just reasons you don't agree with.

What's a good cut-off point? I'm not sure to be honest, but I think viability (without excessive risk of life-long complications) is a reasonable position to take.

As for pain, I think that should be minimised, and I imagine that modern medicine can do a pretty good job of that.

Brown Bomber · 13-08-2013 9:24pm

28064212 wrote: »

You are the one who decided to correlate how gruesome something is with how bad it is. You are the one who equated a medical procedure with a murder. You are the one who repeatedly asked people to point out errors in the description, despite no-one saying there was. Who's wasting who's time?

...ehm... an accurate scientific diagram was censored from this forum. An accurate scientific description of abortion by an ex-abortionist was censored from this forum. It would appear that some people do have a problem with facing up to the brutal realities of abortion as this implies they are reporting these factual posts.

Brown Bomber · 13-08-2013 9:28pm

lazygal wrote: »

What's a selfish abortion? What's an extreme case?

self·ish

[sel-fish] Show IPA
adjective 1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.

+ abortion.

For example, if Lucas' mother had decided on the day he was born she'd rather kill him off to have more disposable income in the future to spend on herself.

Bannasidhe · 13-08-2013 9:29pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

...ehm... an accurate scientific diagram was censored from this forum. An accurate scientific description of abortion by an ex-abortionist was censored from this forum. It would appear that some people do have a problem with facing up to the brutal realities of abortion as this implies they are reporting these factual posts.

Feedback is that way >>>>>>

iwantmydinner · 13-08-2013 9:34pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

For example, if Lucas' mother had decided on the day he was born she'd rather kill him off to have more disposable income in the future to spend on herself.

... that would have been murder. Causing the death of a born child is murder.

There's a huge difference between that and abortion. Especially considering the vast majority of abortions take place in the first trimester (as has been pointed out endlessly).

Brown Bomber · 13-08-2013 9:37pm

swampgas wrote: »

I don't think there is such as thing as a selfish abortion - just reasons you don't agree with.

What's a good cut-off point? I'm not sure to be honest, but I think viability (without excessive risk of life-long complications) is a reasonable position to take.

As for pain, I think that should be minimised, and I imagine that modern medicine can do a pretty good job of that.

Right. but how much pain is too much? Admittedly the science around foetal pain is uncertain but I would say that in cases of selfish(i'm sorry, I can't think of a more accurate description) late-term abortions that could cause considerable pain and trauma prior to the killing of the foetus and especially from the 23/24 weeks stage e unconscionable.

Brown Bomber · 13-08-2013 9:44pm

iwantmydinner wrote: »

... that would have been murder. Causing the death of a born child is murder.

There's a huge difference between that and abortion. Especially considering the vast majority of abortions take place in the first trimester (as has been pointed out endlessly).

Apologies, I didn't explain myself too well before.

What I meant to say is that as Lucas' mother could have hypothetically killed him off legally through abortion on the day of his actual birthday for no other reason than to have more money to spend on herself in the future that this would have been an example of a "selfish abortion".

Again, not sure why killing Lucas an hour before he was born premature isn't murder when killing him in exactly the same manner an hour later is.

robindch · 13-08-2013 10:32pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

An accurate scientific description of abortion by an ex-abortionist was censored from this forum.

I've no idea BB why you keep posting in A+A, given your regularly-expressed feelings about the moderation policy here. There are plenty of places on the internet which don't moderate discussions and you might find them more to your taste.

Look, here's my third public post to you this evening in which I have to remind you about the special rules that apply in this thread to all sides:

No images.
See (1)

If there's some image you feel is vital to making your point, then feel free to include a URL that points to an image. But do not include the image itself as it will be deleted and you will be carded. See again the list of special instructions (there's just one) which is posted just above this para.

I hope this clarification clarifies the earlier clarification of a perfectly clear instruction that applies to all sides of this debate.

eviltwin · 13-08-2013 10:59pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Apologies, I didn't explain myself too well before.

What I meant to say is that as Lucas' mother could have hypothetically killed him off legally through abortion on the day of his actual birthday for no other reason than to have more money to spend on herself in the future that this would have been an example of a "selfish abortion".

Again, not sure why killing Lucas an hour before he was born premature isn't murder when killing him in exactly the same manner an hour later is.

All the more reason for legal abortion here so women can have the procedure done as early as possible which is best all round rather than having to go to the trouble of saving money and thus delaying the gestation at which the abortion takes place.

gaynorvader · 13-08-2013 11:05pm

MrPudding wrote: »

I don't think there should be a punishment for having an abortion.

Murder carries a mandatory life sentence, the punishment for having an illegal abortion is not life, therefore an illegal abortion is not murder.

MrP

Nor do I, but I find many "pro-life" activists haven't thought their position through vis-a-vis what happens to the women who has an abortion in such a system. If a foetus is a person and someone takes their life, I think that would be considered murder in the eyes of the law, no?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

...ehm... an accurate scientific diagram was censored from this forum. An accurate scientific description of abortion by an ex-abortionist was censored from this forum. It would appear that some people do have a problem with facing up to the brutal realities of abortion as this implies they are reporting these factual posts.

What meaning was robbed from your post? Post a link to the image if you really feel you need the crutch to get your point across.

doctoremma · 14-08-2013 11:24am

eviltwin wrote: »

All the more reason for legal abortion here so women can have the procedure done as early as possible which is best all round rather than having to go to the trouble of saving money and thus delaying the gestation at which the abortion takes place.

Agree.

I don't know how it practically works in Ireland, but I'm guessing it is immensely difficult to see a sympathetic GP the day after your positive test, get an appointment with a gynecologist within a few days, then have the termination the next week?

Women who want a termination are going to have one, so the "no abortion" option isn't really there. In that case, surely being able to access a "good abortion" is better than being forced through a "bad abortion".

aloyisious · 14-08-2013 12:07pm

doctoremma wrote: »

Agree.

I don't know how it practically works in Ireland, but I'm guessing it is immensely difficult to see a sympathetic GP the day after your positive test, get an appointment with a gynecologist within a few days, then have the termination the next week?

Women who want a termination are going to have one, so the "no abortion" option isn't really there. In that case, surely being able to access a "good abortion" is better than being forced through a "bad abortion".

I suppose that to a fair few of our nation's population "it's a sin" and not to be entertained in any legal way as an ungodly act. It's an example of how we humans can look at the same act and, separately, see it as either humane or inhuman. The gap will never be fully bridged.

eviltwin · 14-08-2013 1:08pm

doctoremma wrote: »

Agree.

I don't know how it practically works in Ireland, but I'm guessing it is immensely difficult to see a sympathetic GP the day after your positive test, get an appointment with a gynecologist within a few days, then have the termination the next week?

Women who want a termination are going to have one, so the "no abortion" option isn't really there. In that case, surely being able to access a "good abortion" is better than being forced through a "bad abortion".

Spot on. Banning abortion doesn't stop abortion, it just delays abortion which has more serious implications for the woman and the baby. Also no abortion means no decent aftercare, very limited access to counselling unless you are lucky to live in a big city and therefore long term the mental implicatons are greater too. Add to that the stigma, the silence and the idea by some that women who have abortions should feel shame, that they are bad people, that they should be put in the same category as the Myra Hindleys of this world... ...but, hey, thats okay once we're abortion free we can feel smug about ourselves and the wonderful example we are setting the rest of the world. Right on. :mad:

Brown Bomber · 14-08-2013 5:26pm

eviltwin wrote: »

All the more reason for legal abortion here so women can have the procedure done as early as possible which is best all round rather than having to go to the trouble of saving money and thus delaying the gestation at which the abortion takes place.

While what you say is not completely without merit it does nothing to address my point which was:

Again, not sure why killing Lucas an hour before he was born premature isn't murder when killing him in exactly the same manner an hour later is.

eviltwin · 14-08-2013 5:32pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

While what you say is not completely without merit it does nothing to address my point which was:

Again, not sure why killing Lucas an hour before he was born premature isn't murder when killing him in exactly the same manner an hour later is.

Because once born the child is given legal rights not given to unborn children. They have a separate legal identity to the mother, they are individuals living and breathing on their own and therefore the laws of the state cover them.

That is not the case for an unborn baby. You know this. If he had been born and died at birth in Ireland he wouldn't even be grated a death certificate.

You also know cases of abortion at 23+ weeks are not the norm, its wouldn't make sense to keep an unwanted pregnancy for 23 weeks unless you had absolutely no choice.

The only women I know who have had late abortions are TFMR cases where the procedure is nothing like you described. Do you think those women are murderers?

Brown Bomber · 14-08-2013 5:42pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Because once born the child is given legal rights not given to unborn children. They have a separate legal identity to the mother, they are individuals living and breathing on their own and therefore the laws of the state cover them.

That is not the case for an unborn baby. You know this. If he had been born and died at birth in Ireland he wouldn't even be grated a death certificate.

You also know cases of abortion at 23+ weeks are not the norm, its wouldn't make sense to keep an unwanted pregnancy for 23 weeks unless you had absolutely no choice.

The only women I know who have had late abortions are TFMR cases where the procedure is nothing like you described. Do you think those women are murderers?

I'm not talking about any "legal" rights. If mothers or fathers had the legal right to murder premature born babies it wouldn't make it moral, would it?

So again - ... not sure why killing Lucas an hour before he was born premature isn't murder when killing him in exactly the same manner an hour later is.

Sarky · 14-08-2013 5:57pm

That Lucas chap you keep banging on about was never going to die. He was a wanted pregnancy. I'm not sure why you keep using him as an excuse to bang the "ABURRSHURRNS R BAAAARD" drum so much.

gaynorvader · 14-08-2013 5:59pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not talking about any "legal" rights. If mothers or fathers had the legal right to murder premature born babies it wouldn't make it moral, would it?

So again - ... not sure why killing Lucas an hour before he was born premature isn't murder when killing him in exactly the same manner an hour later is.

To address your bolded point. It is because that is the line in the sand. Unborn, dependant foetuses are not considered people, born independent (from their mother's vascular, digestion, etc systems) babies are. You may as well ask why it's not ok to have consensual intercourse 1 hour before a 16 year old turns 17.

eviltwin · 14-08-2013 5:59pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not talking about any "legal" rights. If mothers or fathers had the legal right to murder premature born babies it wouldn't make it moral, would it?

So again - ... not sure why killing Lucas an hour before he was born premature isn't murder when killing him in exactly the same manner an hour later is.

Birth is the difference. Why a woman would wait 23 weeks, give birth to a baby only to then kill it when she could have had an abortion is a bit barmy.

You didn't answer my question, do you think the Tfmr families are murderers?

Brown Bomber · 14-08-2013 6:08pm

Sarky wrote: »

That Lucas chap you keep banging on about was never going to die. He was a wanted pregnancy. I'm not sure why you keep using him as an excuse to bang the "ABURRSHURRNS R BAAAARD" drum so much.

His parents had the "right" to kill him through abortion on the day that he was born.

Sarky · 14-08-2013 6:10pm

And they chose not to, didn't they?

Think carefully about that.

Abortion Discussion

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