Abortion Discussion

Dan_Solo

Cabaal wrote: »

You live in a sheltered world in that case

http://www.care2.com/causes/georgia-rep-investigate-miscarriage.html

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/26/1287527/-Kansas-Moves-to-make-Miscarriages-an-Investigation-Event-and-Defund-Planned-Parenthood

Lots of people don't trust women, they exist in Europe as well as America,

This doesn't strike me as "many" TBH. "Some" would even be a stretch. And you'd have to go looking for them specifically thousands of miles away so forgive my "sheltered" ignorance.

Edit: I can't find one thing in your second link about that bill actually making even a hint at criminalising miscarriages. The scare is from the blogger's wording.

Edit2: I find both those sources to be pretty much unreadable they are so militantly biased. Were these events ever covered by actual news sources who might present facts instead of agenda?

robdonn

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This doesn't strike me as "many" TBH. "Some" would even be a stretch. And you'd have to go looking for them specifically thousands of miles away so forgive my "sheltered" ignorance.

Edit: I can't find one thing in your second link about that bill actually making even a hint at criminalising miscarriages. The scare is from the blogger's wording.

'Many' is not 'most' but can still be a large number. And although we are seeing this kind of treatment happening thousands of miles away, it is not unheard of for these things to have influence here in Ireland through establishments like the Iona Institute and Youth Defence.

And nobody has said anything about criminalising miscarriages, the links show that there are people (possibly many) that would want to investigate all miscarriages to try find cases of foeticide, which would mean opening an investigation for half (as you pointed out) of all pregnancies and treating the women like criminals. Although probably less since many pregnancies would have self-aborted before anyone even knew about them.

Dan_Solo

robdonn wrote: »

'Many' is not 'most' but can still be a large number. And although we are seeing this kind of treatment happening thousands of miles away, it is not unheard of for these things to have influence here in Ireland through establishments like the Iona Institute and Youth Defence.

All a bit far away and vague TBH.

robdonn wrote: »

And nobody has said anything about criminalising miscarriages, the links show that there are people (possibly many) that would want to investigate all miscarriages to try find cases of foeticide, which would mean opening an investigation for half (as you pointed out) of all pregnancies and treating the women like criminals. Although probably less since many pregnancies would have self-aborted before anyone even knew about them.

Possibly many = possibly a handful. Possibly doesn't really help us here, the enumeration is already so fluffy as to be useless.
As far as I can see, these bills are about reporting miscarriages. There's no mention in the bills themselves about criminal investigations, that's in the bits added by the bloggers. Also, if a self-administered or any other abortion is illegal for whatever reason, why wouldn't these be investigated anyway?

Cabaal

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-artist-repeal-the-8th-abortion-campaign-2331521-Sep2015/

Irish stars are calling for the 8th Amendment to be repealed

A CAMPAIGN HAS been launched by artists calling for the repeal of the 8th amendment.

Cillian Murphy, Marian Keyes, John Banville, Edna O’Brien, Christy Moore, Anne Enright, Colm Tóibín and Neil Jordan are among the more than 240 artists who have joined the campaign by the signing this statement.

robdonn

Dan_Solo wrote: »

All a bit far away and vague TBH.

Gardiner Place and Merrion Square aren't that far away.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Possibly many = possibly a handful. Possibly doesn't really help us here, the enumeration is already so fluffy as to be useless.

Useless depends on the position and power of the handful.

Dan_Solo

robdonn wrote: »

Gardiner Place and Merrion Square aren't that far away.

But this isn't where the proposed bills are being presented for ratification. Just saying "we have pro-life groups here" doesn't mean anything with regards to these miscarriage reporting laws. And I still don't see where there's any mention of criminal investigations or even why there shouldn't be if people have broken the law in their jurisdiction.

eviltwin

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But this isn't where the proposed bills are being presented for ratification. Just saying "we have pro-life groups here" doesn't mean anything with regards to these miscarriage reporting laws. And I still don't see where there's any mention of criminal investigations or even why there shouldn't be if people have broken the law in their jurisdiction.

I can't link at the moment but there have been women who have been charged in relation to things they did while pregnant. Bei Bei Shui tried to take her own life when she was pregnant, she lived but the baby died and she was charged with murder. She's not the only one. And then there the many women who have miscarriages who end up being investigated because hospitals can't be sure it was a miscarriage...imagine going through that only to find yourself at the centre of a criminal investigation? This is America, a country that is developed and intelligent and this is the way they are going....its pretty scary, we might not be too far behind.

Daith

eviltwin wrote: »

This is America, a country that is developed and intelligent and this is the way they are going....its pretty scary, we might not be too far behind.

I think you'd have to be pretty naive to think pro-life groups in Ireland aren't heavily linked to American pro-life groups also.

robdonn

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But this isn't where the proposed bills are being presented for ratification. Just saying "we have pro-life groups here" doesn't mean anything with regards to these miscarriage reporting laws.

The groups that we have here, and specifically the ones I mentioned, have been and continue to be influenced by the type of people that are already calling for the legislation over there.

Daith

robdonn wrote: »

The groups that we have here, and specifically the ones I mentioned, have been and continue to be influenced by the type of people that are already calling for the legislation over there.

Indeed. Pretty much the reason why Cora Sherlock is bringing a US Congressman as her guest of honour to a pro life meeting in the RDS.

Absolam

Have any of the groups that we have here called for such laws?

robdonn

Absolam wrote: »

Have any of the groups that we have here called for such laws?

Not that I'm aware of.

eviltwin

Absolam wrote: »

Have any of the groups that we have here called for such laws?

Not in public but I think that's more because they know they are in a precarious position and it wouldn't be entertained.

Daith

Absolam wrote: »

Have any of the groups that we have here called for such laws?

Why would they call for such laws? Abortion is illegal in Ireland.

If a doctor suspected a miscarriage wasn't actually a miscarriage what do you think would happen? Do you think pro-life groups would ignore it though?

Dan_Solo

Daith wrote: »

I think you'd have to be pretty naive to think pro-life groups in Ireland aren't heavily linked to American pro-life groups also.

You'd have to be even more naive to think a bill in Kansas asking for reporting (and it seems little more) of miscarriages will directly lead to criminal investigations of all miscarriages in Ireland. We're beyond the butterfly effect here.

Daith

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You'd have to be even more naive to think a bill in Kansas asking for reporting (and it seems little more) of miscarriages will directly lead to criminal investigations of all miscarriages in Ireland. We're beyond the butterfly effect here.

Not at all. Irish Pro Life groups are heavily influenced by American groups. They've got some pretty interesting views on what constitutes rape too.

Which is slightly odd giving we tend to look at the UK's laws rather than America.

Absolam

eviltwin wrote: »

Not in public but I think that's more because they know they are in a precarious position and it wouldn't be entertained.

Really? Given the kind of legal nonsense they've pulled previously, this is where you think they think they need to draw the line? I'm not convinced that the likes of Youth Defence would be worried about who entertains them if they think they're doing the moral thing.

Daith wrote: »

Why would they call for such laws? Abortion is illegal in Ireland. If a doctor suspected a miscarriage wasn't actually a miscarriage what do you think would happen? Do you think pro-life groups would ignore it though?

Because this is what we're being told over the last few pages is the sort of thing they'd do. Along with detaining pregnant women from travelling etc.
If you're inferring it's the sort of thing they'd do because they're heavily influenced by groups who do (as you are), I think it's reasonable to wonder if they had actually done what is being said they would do.

Dan_Solo

Daith wrote: »

Why would they call for such laws? Abortion is illegal in Ireland.

If a doctor suspected a miscarriage wasn't actually a miscarriage what do you think would happen? Do you think pro-life groups would ignore it though?

I don't see why you have to bring pro-life groups into this scenario TBH. What's the relevance?
If there's criminality I think doctors are required by law to report it? Why wouldn't they?

Daith

Absolam wrote: »

Because this is what we're being told over the last few pages is the sort of thing they'd do. Along with detaining pregnant women from travelling etc.

So I was wondering if they had actually done what is being said they would do.

No not being told. Having a discussion about it as far as I could tell.

We don't need any more laws in Ireland to make abortion illegal.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't see why you have to bring pro-life groups into this scenario TBH. What's the relevance?

Er, the relevance was the link between pro-life groups here and their links to Americans. Pro-life groups are very relevant to discussion on abortion though?

Dan_Solo

Daith wrote: »

Not at all. Irish Pro Life groups are heavily influenced by American groups. They've got some pretty interesting views on what constitutes rape too.

Which is slightly odd giving we tend to look at the UK's laws rather than America.

Yes, but my original statement still stands. Finding something that could be construed with extreme reinterpretation as "pro-life" or "anti-woman", which I still haven't seen anybody make a real case for anyway, as likely to cause criminal investigations of every miscarriage here is just not credible.

eviltwin

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't see why you have to bring pro-life groups into this scenario TBH. What's the relevance?
If there's criminality I think doctors are required by law to report it? Why wouldn't they?

It shouldn't be a crime to have a home abortion, the laws we have are meant to deter backstreet clinics setting up and exploiting and endangering women. Its highly unlikely any woman would be charge under that law. It hasn't happened yet despite drug seizures being made so I don't think the appetite is there. In the US woman are being charged over it and it has the potential to be abused as in the case of Bei Bei Shiu.

Dan_Solo

eviltwin wrote: »

It shouldn't be a crime to have a home abortion, the laws we have are meant to deter backstreet clinics setting up and exploiting and endangering women. Its highly unlikely any woman would be charge under that law. It hasn't happened yet despite drug seizures being made so I don't think the appetite is there. In the US woman are being charged over it and it has the potential to be abused as in the case of Bei Bei Shiu.

It's a different thing to say laws are being ignored and to say the laws themselves are sound or not. I don't think that's much of a point at all.

eviltwin

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It's a different thing to say laws are being ignored and to say the laws themselves are sound or not. I don't think that's much of a point at all.

The law that we have at the moment is rubbish, its the one thing both pro life and pro choice groups agree with. The legal framework is there to charge a woman who has a home abortion and all it needs is someone with a very conservative view in the right role to do so. Although our law has a maximum penalty of 14 years, its a lot worse elsewhere.

Dan_Solo

Daith wrote: »

Er, the relevance was the link between pro-life groups here and their links to Americans. Pro-life groups are very relevant to discussion on abortion though?

Your first line was about doctors reporting suspicious miscarriages. Your second line was about pro-life groups and their links to Americans.

Do you want another attempt at connecting these in some way, shape or form? Are all doctors in pro-life groups? Are all pro-lifers doctors? What's the link? Doctors might do something therefore pro-lifers groups are related?

The Black Oil

This week, Una Mullaly, Roisin Ingle, Tara Flynn and Fintan O' Toole have written about or discussed abortion. Let's see what sort of response that generates, I wonder.

Hotblack Desiato

The Black Oil wrote: »

This week, Una Mullaly, Roisin Ingle, Tara Flynn and Fintan O' Toole have written about or discussed abortion. Let's see what sort of response that generates, I wonder.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/róisín-ingle-why-i-need-to-tell-my-abortion-story-1.2348822

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/tara-flynn-you-don-t-talk-about-abortion-in-ireland-but-i-have-to-1.2344617

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-there-is-a-good-reason-women-are-reluctant-to-speak-about-their-abortions-1.2350297

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-shining-light-on-abortion-one-of-ireland-s-unknown-knowns-1.2351430

Absolam

Daith wrote: »

No not being told. Having a discussion about it as far as I could tell.

Well, Cabaal told us that:

Cabaal wrote: »

in some people's views yes an abortion and euthanasia are the same thing. The result in somebody being murdered.
I don't believe this, but lots of people see a fetus = to a baby and abortion = murder. Of course for those that do see these things then its only right that women should be stopped from traveling if you apply their mindset and logic to the issue.

And yet, it seems to me that those who do see these things are not trying to stop women from travelling.
When Akrasia asked

Akrasia wrote: »

Does anyone seriously want to argue that every time a woman miscarries a pregnancy that she should be investigated for possible infanticide or negligent homicide?

Cabaal told us

Cabaal wrote: »

In all honesty I'm sure many people would argue that this should happen, The same sort of individuals that think women will use abortion as birth control and who will lie about rape, suicide and incest to have an abortion.

Yet I'm not seeing anyone arguing that it should happen, other than the odd links from the States to groups that apparently have influence here in Ireland through establishments like the Iona Institute and Youth Defence (according to robdonn).
So I think the question have any of the groups that we have here called for such laws is pretty germaine; we're being told it's the sort of thing they'd undoubtedly get up to. And yet it appears they're not.
Maybe it is, as Eviltwin suggest, because they know it wouldn't be entertained, but that doesn't seem to have stopped them getting up to anything else, so it's a bit odd that this particular piece of moral excess is what they are imagined to think is somehow a step too far, despite their steadfast resolution in the face of somewhat overwhelming opprobrium in their other campaigns, such as opposing gay marriage.

Daith wrote: »

We don't need any more laws in Ireland to make abortion illegal.

That's true; we already have a Constitutional provision. But I don't think the suggestion was that these groups were trying to bring in more laws to make abortion illegal, the suggestion was that they would try to bring in laws to restrict travel and investigate miscarriages as infanticide/negligent homicide.

Absolam

eviltwin wrote: »

It shouldn't be a crime to have a home abortion, the laws we have are meant to deter backstreet clinics setting up and exploiting and endangering women. Its highly unlikely any woman would be charge under that law. It hasn't happened yet despite drug seizures being made so I don't think the appetite is there. In the US woman are being charged over it and it has the potential to be abused as in the case of Bei Bei Shiu.

I'm not sure why a home abortion shouldn't be a crime when an abortion in a clinic is? Both are crimes because the take the life of an unborn child which is Constitutionally protected; in both cases the criminal offense is the intentional destruction of unborn human life. The law isn't intended to deter backstreet clinics setting up and exploiting and endangering women, it's intended to give effect to the States Constitutional obligation to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the right to life of the unborn. Given that the law only came into effect in mid 2013, I don't think I'd be rushing to say it's highly unlikely any woman would be charged under it just yet.

eviltwin wrote: »

The law that we have at the moment is rubbish, its the one thing both pro life and pro choice groups agree with. The legal framework is there to charge a woman who has a home abortion and all it needs is someone with a very conservative view in the right role to do so. Although our law has a maximum penalty of 14 years, its a lot worse elsewhere.

I don't think it's true to say it's rubbish; so far the law seems to do what it was intended to do. I don't know why you think home abortions are so different from others, but I suspect there's not a huge number of people who would think that home abortions are somehow less of an issue than those carried out in clinics? I certainly don't think there's a tacit acknowledgement from those who don't have a very conservative view that home abortions should not be subject to prosecution.

robdonn

Absolam wrote: »

Yet I'm not seeing anyone arguing that it should happen, other than the odd links from the States to groups that apparently have influence here in Ireland through establishments like the Iona Institute and Youth Defence (according to robdonn).

Why American Pro-Life Dollars Are Pouring Into Ireland

American abortion opponents have given hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years to the Irish pro-life lobby, according to Joseph Scheidler, spokesman for the U.S.-based Pro-Life Action League.* Seeing Ireland as the last bastion of abortion-free Europe along with Malta, as he told the Sunday Business Post, Scheidler singled out the Irish pro-life group Youth Defence as one of the main recipients of funds from the U.S. because "They need the money for publicity. Abortion is about conversion and it's very hard to convert people in masses, and that is why people like Youth Defence go out into the street."

Absolam

robdonn wrote: »

Why American Pro-Life Dollars Are Pouring Into Ireland

I'm not disagreeing that these groups receive funding from the US; they obviously do.
I'm disagreeing with the idea that they must be attempting to prevent women from travelling and that they're arguing that every time a woman miscarries a pregnancy that she should be investigated for possible infanticide or negligent homicide, when there appears to be no evidence that they are doing so.