Abortion Discussion

Nodin · 22-08-2013 5:07pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Was it abortion as a lifestyle choice? If so, she is a murderer.

It is up to me to defend the human life inside that woman, because clearly you and her haven't the moral compass to do so.

Regarding when an unborn baby becomes equal to a "born" baby, that it a tricky question. A foetus is definitely equal. .

We gathered you thought that. Do please explain how you justify that stance/belief.

Jack Kyle · 22-08-2013 5:09pm

kylith wrote: »

So women should be forced to have children that they don't want and can't afford. Why? Because they shouldn't be having sex unless specifically to have babies?

And women who have been raped, while they may be in the minority, they should be forced to have their rapists child if they can't prove to your satisfaction that they were raped?

And can you answer the questions in my earlier post please:

Would there be any situation in which you would deem a woman not wishing to carry a pregnancy to term not murder?
Do you think that a woman who wishes to have an abortion, but has not had one yet, should be incarcerated?
Should the right of Irish women to receive information on procuring a termination abroad be revoked?
Should the right of Irish women to travel for the purpose of securing a termination be revoked?
Should women returning to Ireland from procuring a termination abroad be incarcerated?

We can't control what goes on outside of Ireland.

However, we can prevent babies from being murdered in our country.

I am against abortion as a form of contraception or as a lifestyle choice. There are so many childless couples crying out for children to adopt.

YumCha · 22-08-2013 5:09pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

A "normal" woman with a "normal" pregnancy who hasn't been raped and isn't dying should not be allowed to have an abortion. Such an abortion is morally wrong and is murder.

Well just look at all these immoral countries which have legalised murder:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2013/05/abortion_and_birth_control_a_global_map.html

Obviously an extreme minority at work there...

Mardy Bum · 22-08-2013 5:09pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Regarding when an unborn baby becomes equal to a "born" baby, that it a tricky question. A foetus is definitely equal. An embryo - I'm not sure. Somewhere between the two I'd say.

So would it be acceptable to abort an embryo?

Jack Kyle · 22-08-2013 5:13pm

iwantmydinner wrote: »

Please point out the extreme scenarios you've apparently been presented with on this thread.

Oh, and, complications in pregnancy are extremely common, actually. It's certainly not the case that "almost all" pregnancies are "normal".

What about this scenario, which I posed to you in post #1416:

What would you say to this?

I'd say that she should be forced to carry the child to term.

If I was faced with the prospect of serious injury or killing you, a complete stranger, I'd go for the injury. I'd like to think that when it comes to the baby inside a woman, she'd happily "take one for the team".

doctoremma · 22-08-2013 5:13pm

Nodin wrote: »

Soz, not you, the "This fella is saying that if you can treat an ectopic pregnancy yet safely preserve the fallopian tube, then that constitutes a morally wrong action. But if you take the damaged fallopian tube out, that's acceptable? So, with the certainty that the embryo is going to die anyway, doing the least amount of damage to a woman, offering her the most progressive treatment and preserving her fertility is morally incorrect?" thing.

My understanding (or cynical interpretation?) of it is that if a doctor needs to remove the ectopic pregnancy in order to save the woman's life, s/he may deliberately and unnecessarily remove a fallopian tube that could have been saved, in order to invoke the justification that it was the tube that was killing the woman.

old hippy · 22-08-2013 5:14pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Was it abortion as a lifestyle choice? If so, she is a murderer.

It is up to me to defend the human life inside that woman, because clearly you and her haven't the moral compass to do so.

Regarding when an unborn baby becomes equal to a "born" baby, that it a tricky question. A foetus is definitely equal. An embryo - I'm not sure. Somewhere between the two I'd say.

All choices are done to alter the quality of life. For the two of us, in our own separate lives - it would not have been useful to either of us to go through with any pregnancy.

Define a moral compass.

Now you've judged my friend to be a murderer, what should her punishment be?

And remember, there was no human life in her - just a clump of cells.

Jack Kyle · 22-08-2013 5:15pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

So would it be acceptable to abort an embryo?

I don't know. I think that an informed discussion (involving scientists etc) should be had around when precisely a pregnancy becomes a life. There is some point between conception and birth - It needs to be decided upon.

Nodin · 22-08-2013 5:16pm

doctoremma wrote: »

My understanding (or cynical interpretation?) of it is that if a doctor needs to remove the ectopic pregnancy in order to save the woman's life, s/he may deliberately and unnecessarily remove a fallopian tube that could have been saved, in order to invoke the justification that it was the tube that was killing the woman.

.....these people are fucking weird.....Even when I know this already, they surprise me with their weirdness.

old hippy · 22-08-2013 5:16pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

We can't control what goes on outside of Ireland.

However, we can prevent babies from being murdered in our country.

I am against abortion as a form of contraception or as a lifestyle choice. There are so many childless couples crying out for children to adopt.

Define "lifestyle choice".

Nodin · 22-08-2013 5:17pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

I don't know. I think that an informed discussion (involving scientists etc) should be had around when precisely a pregnancy becomes a life. There is some point between conception and birth - It needs to be decided upon.

You've decided on it, evidently. Do please explain your rationale.

Delirium · 22-08-2013 5:17pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

I'd say that she should be forced to carry the child to term.

If I was faced with the prospect of serious injury or killing you, a complete stranger, I'd go for the injury. I'd like to think that when it comes to the baby inside a woman, she'd happily "take one for the team".

Actually it's more like the woman is faced with going through with something that may possibly injure or kill her. She would rather not gamble with either, and you suggest she "take one for the team"?

old hippy · 22-08-2013 5:18pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

I don't know. I think that an informed discussion (involving scientists etc) should be had around when precisely a pregnancy becomes a life. There is some point between conception and birth - It needs to be decided upon.

Life begins at birth.

old hippy · 22-08-2013 5:18pm

koth wrote: »

Actually it's more like the woman is faced with going through with something that may possibly injure or kill her. She would rather not gamble with either and you suggest she "take one for the team"?

The joys of old school patriarchy, eh?

Jack Kyle · 22-08-2013 5:18pm

old hippy wrote: »

All choices are done to alter the quality of life. For the two of us, in our own separate lives - it would not have been useful to either of us to go through with any pregnancy.

Define a moral compass.

Now you've judged my friend to be a murderer, what should her punishment be?

And remember, there was no human life in her - just a clump of cells.

A classic lifestyle abortion in other words.

The worst kind.

The baby could have been adopted.

iwantmydinner · 22-08-2013 5:19pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

There are so many childless couples crying out for children to adopt.

From this, and your other posts, I'm gathering that a woman who falls pregnant, actually has a duty to remain pregnant - no matter what state of physical or mental fitness she may be in, no matter what her financial circumstances are, no matter what state her relationship may be in (if she is in a relationship), no matter if she's not equipped to become a mother, even if she felt able to give her body up for 9 months to bring the pregnancy to term. If she finds herself pregnant, no matter how unwanted or unplanned the pregnancy is, she has to immediately suspend whatever else is going on in her life, give up her bodily autonomy in order to give birth to a child she can not or will not rear.

Would that be an accurate summary of your position?

Delirium · 22-08-2013 5:20pm

old hippy wrote: »

The joys of old school patriarchy, eh?

yeah. "shut up, luv. It's only 9 months" :rolleyes:

iwantmydinner · 22-08-2013 5:21pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

I'd say that she should be forced to carry the child to term.

If I was faced with the prospect of serious injury or killing you, a complete stranger, I'd go for the injury. I'd like to think that when it comes to the baby inside a woman, she'd happily "take one for the team".

Oh for f*ck sake. FORCED????? How the hell does that seem even remotely acceptable to you??

Jack Kyle · 22-08-2013 5:24pm

iwantmydinner wrote: »

Oh for f*ck sake. FORCED????? How the hell does that seem even remotely acceptable to you??

Not allowed to murder the child because it has a right to life that supercedes the woman's right to bodily integrity.

gaynorvader · 22-08-2013 5:24pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

A classic lifestyle abortion in other words.

The worst kind.

The baby could have been adopted.

Why do you think that imprisonment is a good punishment for murderers?

old hippy · 22-08-2013 5:24pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

A classic lifestyle abortion in other words.

The worst kind.

The baby could have been adopted.

There was no baby. There was a clump of cells.

And who are you to decide what other people do in such situations?

Seriously.

Now, once again - you've decided she's a murderer, without moral compass. What punishment should she receive?

Interestingly, you haven't called me a murderer? Why is that? Is it that you agree with me that men can't dictate what women should do with their bodies?

Turtwig · 22-08-2013 5:24pm

I didn't realise the concept of broodmares was alive and ticking.

old hippy · 22-08-2013 5:26pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Not allowed to murder the child because it has a right to life that supercedes the woman's right to bodily integrity.

I see. So women are mere vessels, baby producing automatums to keep your narrow views placated?

iwantmydinner · 22-08-2013 5:26pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

A classic lifestyle abortion in other words.

The worst kind.

The baby could have been adopted.

Well that's fine, 'cos pregnancy is such an easy-breezy experience, topped off by the delight that is labour and childbirth.

Only those well and truly equipped and ready to go through it, should go through it.

Jack Kyle · 22-08-2013 5:26pm

old hippy wrote: »

There was no baby. There was a clump of cells.

And who are you to decide what other people do in such situations?

Seriously.

Now, once again - you've decided she's a murderer, without moral compass. What punishment should she receive?

Interestingly, you haven't called me a murderer? Why is that? Is it that you agree with me that men can't dictate what women should do with their bodies?

<SNIP>

iwantmydinner · 22-08-2013 5:27pm

Jernal wrote: »

I didn't realise the concept of broodmares was alive and ticking.

Well, at least he's brought us up to date on that.

Jack Kyle · 22-08-2013 5:28pm

gaynorvader wrote: »

Why do you think that imprisonment is a good punishment for murderers?

That is a separate issue and a discussion for another day.

Delirium · 22-08-2013 5:28pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

<SNIP>

a lot of assumptions there.

iwantmydinner · 22-08-2013 5:28pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

<SNIP>.

I've just reported that post.

Mardy Bum · 22-08-2013 5:29pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

I don't know. I think that an informed discussion (involving scientists etc) should be had around when precisely a pregnancy becomes a life. There is some point between conception and birth - It needs to be decided upon.

What do you think of the views in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzY0L2g1f64

Abortion Discussion

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