Abortion Discussion

Turtwig

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Basically, abortion was legalised in the US in the early 70s, most crimes in the US are committed by males aged 18-24 and in the late 80s/early 90s the crime rate started to drop for some unknown reason. These guys hypothesised that it's because future criminals started being aborted 18-24 years earlier.
.

Nodin

Jack Kyle wrote: »

I would hypothesise . . .

A rather ignorant generalisation based on a series of presumptions.

lazygal

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Why are hundreds of families forced to go to other countries each year to source children to adopt?

Because there's a serious shortage of babies.

It is not the job of women with unwanted pregnancies to provide the childless with children.

Turtwig

Jack Kyle has been given a month long holiday. At this stage I'm not sure if I want to believe he's deliberately winding people up or he's giving honest opinions.

Doctor Strange

Jernal wrote: »

Jack Kyle has been given a month long holiday. At this stage I'm not sure if I want to believe he's deliberately winding people up or he's giving honest opinions.

Nodin

Jernal wrote: »

Jack Kyle has been given a month long holiday. At this stage I'm not sure if I want to believe he's deliberately winding people up or he's giving honest opinions.

.....the former.

Afroshack

Jack Kyle wrote: »

It's a better and more considered punishment than just jailing them.

So much for 'love them both' eh?

Still waiting to hear how many newborns you've adopted.

aloyisious

Jack Kyle wrote: »

It's a well known concept called the Donohue Levitt Hypothesis.

Feel free to Google it.

Basically, abortion was legalised in the US in the early 70s, most crimes in the US are committed by males aged 18-24 and in the late 80s/early 90s the crime rate started to drop for some unknown reason. These guys hypothesised that it's because future criminals started being aborted 18-24 years earlier.

Interesting stuff.

Hmm , use abortions to reduce crime levels and save on jails, etc... Interesting idea, now if you'd tried that to get Ministerial approval etc, for abortion, I'd imagine two Ministers might be interested (Finance and Justice) in the idea . BTW, jack, on the basis of the Donohue-Levitt hypothesis, would YOU include it on your list of approved abortions as an innocent's life-saving measure (if one theorized that there'd be less chance of crime victim deaths)?

kylith

If women from unprivileged backgrounds are more likely to have children which go on to commit crimes then wouldn't it be counter-productive to threaten them with sterilisation if they try to obtain an abortion? If they know their womb would be removed then they'd be a lot less likely (very, very unlikely) to access abortion services leading to them having more children which are born and raised in poverty thus leading to a higher crime rate.

Jack Kyle's own argument is against him: making it easier for women on low incomes to access contraception and abortion services is the way to lower the number of children raised in poverty and to lower the correlated crime rate (if such a correlation exists), while forcibly sterilising women is the way to ensure that no-one accesses abortion services; meaning that they are more likely to have more children they can't afford, leading to a higher crime rate.

Sulla Felix

kylith wrote: »

If women from unprivileged backgrounds are more likely to have children which go on to commit crimes then wouldn't it be counter-productive to threaten them with sterilisation if they try to obtain an abortion? If they know their womb would be removed then they'd be a lot less likely (very, very unlikely) to access abortion services leading to them having more children which are born and raised in poverty thus leading to a higher crime rate.

Jack Kyle's own argument is against him: making it easier for women on low incomes to access contraception and abortion services is the way to lower the number of children raised in poverty and to lower the correlated crime rate (if such a correlation exists), while forcibly sterilising women is the way to ensure that no-one accesses abortion services; meaning that they are more likely to have more children they can't afford, leading to a higher crime rate.

Yeah, but his way we can condemn the whores for raising criminal kids. That's the point.

Morag

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Why are hundreds of families forced to go to other countries each year to source children to adopt?

Because there's a serious shortage of babies.

See that does my head in. There are currently many children who need to be adopted and a fostered who need the stability of a family environment, but as they are not babies they are left in group care homes or stuttled from temp foster home to temp foster home.

If those who go to other countries to adopt a baby would instead take on a 7 year old, a 10 year old or a 13 year old if they are that desperate to parent then this country would be a better place.

Sulla Felix

Morag wrote: »

See that does my head in. There are currently many children who need to be adopted and a fostered who need the stability of a family environment, but as they are not babies they are left in group care homes or stuttled from temp foster home to temp foster home.

If those who go to other countries to adopt a baby would instead take on a 7 year old, a 10 year old or a 13 year old if they are that desperate to parent then this country would be a better place.

I was given to understand that the reason a lot of Irish in particular adopt from abroad is because generally the redtape here is woeful to try and wade through?

Morag

They still have to go through the same red tape when adopting from abroad, infact two sets of red tape.
The only difference is that the waiting list for a infant is a lot longer here then in other countries and in the mean time older children are left with out a family.

Brian Shanahan

PopePalpatine wrote: »

B-b-but that's misandry! That's [screeching accent]evil, PC misandry![/screeching accent].

Sorry yer holeyness, but your John Waters impression does not pass muster.

Must try harder.

Jack Kyle wrote: »

I was reflecting on this earlier today and the various posts both for and against the punishment of women who have abortions. I'm obviously staunchly opposed to abortion in all but circumstances like the Savita case. I believe that the woman's life and the baby's life equal. With the caveat that I have pretty conservative views, how about this for a potential solution? If a woman elects to have an abortion, what if we were to make it compulsory for her to also have a hysterectomy? Not as extreme as incarcerating women and mothers, but make the loss of their ability to have children in the future the quid pro quo for what many like me view as the murder of a child. Extreme? Yes. Controversial? Absolutely. Effective? Perhaps. Salient point being that a woman who cares so little for life should perhaps lose the ability to create it. And before the left scream "troll", this is a legitimate and thought out proposal.

You know your solution is getting pretty close to the Gesetz zur Verhütung erbkranken Nachwuchses of Nazi Germany.

_rebelkid

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

You know your solution is getting pretty close to the Gesetz zur Verhütung erbkranken Nachwuchses of Nazi Germany.

Godwin

PopePalpatine

Godwindammit.

aloyisious

Well, that's a whole crock of ****, as the saying goes. Today's Irish Independent has an article on how the Irish Times editor is being asked how that paper ran an untrue story on August 23rd about how an abortion had been carried out in Holles St NMH, and why there had had been an insufficient apology printed in last Saturday's (30th Aug) Irish Times. The I/T story was posted on page 105 of this thread. I only heard about the falseness of the story when I saw this in the Indo', and have to admit I believed the original because it was in the I/T. It's a sorry day when the I/T can be faulted for running an untrue story.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/editor-under-pressure-to-explain-article-on-abortion-29546483.html

Brian Shanahan

_rebelkid wrote: »

Godwin

Well it is how far outside the realm of morality that Jack Kyle is going with his proposal of forcible removal of wombs from women who have abortions. The post I quoted horrified me that much.

Also I'd like to point out that most people who use Godwin's law don't really use it properly. To quote Mike Godwin himself:

Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics, its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler or to Nazis to think a bit harder about the Holocaust

Most people seem to think that Godwin's Law states that anyone who invokes Hitler or the Nazis is automatically invalidated.

robindch

FG TDs suffer Communion snub - Several government deputies 'discouraged' from taking sacrament after voting for abortion legislation

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fg-tds-suffer-communion-snub-29561349.html

Independent wrote:

SEVERAL government TDs have been "discouraged" from taking Holy Communion over their support for the controversial abortion legislation, the Sunday Independent can reveal. A number of TDs, particularly in more rural areas, have told of how they were warned off from seeking Communion by their local priests if they voted for the bill.

One minister claimed he was threatened with excommunication by his local priest from the altar. "I was approached by one priest during the week and was told very clearly not to go to him looking for Communion that Sunday as I would be refused," one TD told the Sunday Independent.

Meanwhile, a large number of government TDs have revealed how they have been publicly pilloried from the pulpit over their support for the abortion legislation. One Fine Gael minister said he was subjected to a ferocious campaign by priests and bishops. "The attitude of some young, very conservative priests was atrocious," the minister said.

"One priest was threatening all sorts from the pulpit one weekend which made life uncomfortable. Excommunication, direct threats came from the altar about us receiving Communion. It was outrageous." Another TD revealed that his parish priest used a meeting on a separate family matter to "make his position on abortion clear again and again and again. It was wrong".

Another rural-based deputy said that he was subjected to "rantings from the altar, week after week after week". He added: "He (the priest) said any TD who voted for this thing should be excommunicated and therefore shouldn't expect to receive Communion. Bloody hell, the church should be encouraging people in, not scaring them away."

[...]

Nodin

....alienating the faithful. Nice one.

Delirium

robindch wrote: »

FG TDs suffer Communion snub - Several government deputies 'discouraged' from taking sacrament after voting for abortion legislation

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fg-tds-suffer-communion-snub-29561349.html

From the article also:

Even weeks after the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill became law, another TD, Aine Collins, was subjected to abuse from Youth Defence while on a pilgrimage to Medjugorje in Bosnia and Herzegovina in August. She was also targeted on her arrival back at Cork Airport.
Ms Collins said she was "deeply shaken" by the manner and timing of the protest.

So now Youth Defense are terrorising people on a religious pilgrimage in a another country??

Sarky

Well, YD are long-established as having no limit on the depths of indecency and callous f*cking stupidity to which they'll sink.

MrPudding

Nodin wrote: »

....alienating the faithful. Nice one.

Yes, good to see. Keep up the good work lads.

MrP

PopePalpatine

I never knew Jugendschutzers could afford tickets to Medjor...Mejorgorji...whatever the fúck it's called.

Turtwig

For some people faith is a very personal thing. Excommunicating someone who deeply believes in their faith is a form of bullying. The rules of Catholicism may claim Catholics have to obey the Church but the enforcement of this rule is ridiculously inconsistent. The Church doesn't turn away single parents, divorced parents, convicts, violent murderers, child abusers. That's why I see it as bullying. If they really cared about the rules they'd enforce them across the board instead they're just being selective to psychologically torment the faithful into a political position.

Afroshack

They persuaded the teenagers she was travelling with to reveal where they were staying.


F****n hell. They really are a ****** of *****

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-td-aine-collins-2163404

Brian Shanahan

koth wrote: »

From the article also:




So now Youth Defense are terrorising people on a religious pilgrimage in a another country??

Well, they are a bunch of neo-Nazi wannabes.

old hippy

Afroshack wrote: »

They persuaded the teenagers she was travelling with to reveal where they were staying.


F****n hell. They really are a ****** of *****

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-td-aine-collins-2163404

Bastards. Excuse my French but really. Utter bastards.

Obliq

This is an interesting and well written article on the Jewish faith and attitudes to abortion:

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/143541/marjorie-abortion-miscarriage

Cabaal

Afroshack wrote: »

They persuaded the teenagers she was travelling with to reveal where they were staying.


F****n hell. They really are a ****** of *****

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-td-aine-collins-2163404

Its a crying shame she didn't film the entire thing on her camera phone but not engage with them otherwise,

I very much doubt the scum are so brave when they are on camera