Abortion Discussion

mbiking123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Still no argument as to why women shouldn't have the right to control over there own bodies I see.

You are the one who mentioned religion - I said it had no place in this discussion. Religious people can believe anything they want to just as long as they don't expect other to obey their rules.

Strike TWO.
You are sooo wrong that regular posters here are snorting at how incredibly wrong you are.

Wanna go for strike three?

calm down -> Strike zero more like

Bannasidhe

mbiking123 wrote: »

calm down -> Strike zero more like

Lets see - I have been told I am young, inexperienced and know little of the world. I am a middle aged woman who has lived and worked in many many countries and, even if I say so myself, I am rather well educated both academically and 'in the school of life' = Strike One.

By the way - my 80 year old mother is vehemently pro- Choice. Will she change her mind when she grows up too?



That I have had an abortion and am all cut up about it = Strike Two.
If I had had an abortion I would not be cut up about it but I didn't - nor was I likely to need one unless I was raped as I don't fornicate with men.


Now, Where are your arguments as to why women should not have control over their own bodies?

gaynorvader

mbiking123 wrote: »

So why sacrifice the unborn child, on your basis its not for anyone to decide what sacrifice that unborn person should make

The term "unborn child" is an intellectually dishonest term designed to pluck at our heart strings. Until a certain point it is just a lump of human DNA growing in someone's body. It is in fact not dissimilar to cancer or a parasite, scientifically speaking.

mbiking123 wrote: »

Science would say yes, make lots of babies

in fact Neanderthals and Humans Interbred, its all natural. make babies

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/05/100506-science-neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene/

Science doesn't say anything. Science doesn't speak at all. The only thing science shows is that we got here by making lots of babies and that lots of babies are being made currently.

mbiking123 wrote: »

have a baby and then die

Just one baby? So you're advocating our population at least halving every generation?

mbiking123 wrote: »

well science says basically yes, blunt but honest !

religion says we are more than that

So go down the religious route if you want, 'we are made in image of God etc etc'

Science says no such thing, it says that women are necessary for reproduction, but it puts no laws stating she must reproduce. Science doesn't do philosophy.

mbiking123 wrote: »

Interesting point, as we need foreign nationals to boost the Irish population to pay for pensions etc. more babies are needed in Ireland

Economics says have more children - that's another one

A rather naive and short term solution. You would need more and more children every succeeding generation until there aren't enough resources to sustain everyone and then we'd have a massive economic crash on our hands.

mbiking123 wrote: »

science says there is no God

A woman will only get pregnant in the natural world by having sex, only religion believes in the immaculate conception and at that only a few. science will stop pregnancy but not nature, science will allow 'intervention' which does have its own risks.

I don't know why there is a smiley face, means nothing to me. obviously you think all people who are against abortion are religious tut tut

Religion, religion, religion, for someone "not wanting to bring religion into this debate", you sure go on about it a lot.
Nature stops pregnancies all the time, many animals have evolved so that they can "abort" a foetus if they are in danger. In fact, the entirety of science is but an extension of nature, it is the means we developed naturally to deal with our environment.

mbiking123 wrote: »

miscarriages as explained to me by a doctor as natures way of getting rid of something that was not right. You are obviously young, with not as much life experience as older people. I can understand that, with age things become clearer

I look upon life as being dealt a card hand, some people are dealt a better hand than others, and we have to live and best deal with what we are given. Not all of us live to a 'full age'. I have seen children die of cancer as I grew up, sad but that's natures way.

That doctor should have his medical licence revoked so. There are a huge number of reasons for miscarriages, not all of which are understood.

I'm not even sure what your second paragraph is in reference to. If you're going to write something whilst debating, do try to have a point

mbiking123 wrote: »

Actually no, that the way it works. people are always in disagreement with regard to science. for example evolution, the example I gave earlier (if anybody read it) was disputed and there is some evidence, but who knows for sure

So now, although science says women should only be for baby making, that doesn't really mean anything as people are always in disagreement?

It's not even true, I don't think scientists are in disagreement on the theory of gravity. I don't think scientists without an agenda are in disagreement with the theory of evolution. I don't thin scientists are in disagreement that the Earth goes around the Sun. I could go on.

mbiking123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Lets see - I have been told I am young, inexperienced and know little of the world. I am a middle aged woman who has lived and worked in many many countries and, even if I say so myself, I am rather well educated both academically and 'in the school of life' = Strike One.

By the way - my 80 year old mother is vehemently pro- Choice. Will she change her mind when she grows up too?



That I have had an abortion and am all cut up about it = Strike Two.
If I had had an abortion I would not be cut up about it but I didn't - nor was I likely to need one unless I was raped as I don't fornicate with men.


Now, Where are your arguments as to why women should not have control over their own bodies?

Well at middle age, even if you did fornicate with men you would find it hard to get pregnant

mbiking123

That doctor should have his medical licence revoked so. There are a huge number of reasons for miscarriages, not all of which are understood.

.[/QUOTE]
Obviously a doctor, you explain it so. In fact given your message don't bother it will be too long winded

aloyisious

mbiking123 wrote: »

Sinn Fein - flipin Sinn Fein. I never mentioned that crowd !!!!!!!!!!!!! plant a bomb - abortion whats the difference

never mentioned Roman Catholic either !!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL

iwantmydinner

mbiking123 wrote: »

Well at middle age, even if you did fornicate with men you would find it hard to get pregnant

mbiking123 wrote: »

Obviously a doctor, you explain it so. In fact given your message don't bother it will be too long winded

Is this really what you're resorting to as an argument against abortion?

Turtwig

mbiking123 wrote: »

Well at middle age, even if you did fornicate with men you would find it hard to get pregnant

mbiking123 wrote: »

Obviously a doctor, you explain it so. In fact given your message don't bother it will be too long winded

Mod: Please cut out these flippant remarks. Less noise and more constructive discussion.

Bannasidhe

mbiking123 wrote: »

Well at middle age, even if you did fornicate with men you would find it hard to get pregnant

Is that the best response you could come up with?

Is that an 'Ohhh you are middle aged so you can't get pregnant (the box of tampons I bought today says differently btw) so nah nah what's it to ya' or what?

Well, if that is the level you want to play at - do you have a womb? If not what's it to ya, mind your own business.'

Now - any chance of an actual argument as to why women should not have control over their own bodies?

Nodin

mbiking123 wrote: »

have a baby and then die

Unfortunately that's what I thought. You realise that's a nonsensical attitude to take? And again, something that would be forced on people....?

Cabaal

Not only has this thread provided that many anti-choice people don't understand science or women in general.

It seems many don't even understand the meaning of the word fornicate, this word refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other. In more modern usage its used in cases of premarital sex, sex before marriage, or extramarital sex.

Problem is I've seen it used in this thread in several cases to simply refer to the act of sex in general, its like the people that use it are simply incapable of using the word sex. Either that or they simply want to make the whole sexual act sound shameful by using the word fornication.....even if the usage of the word is basically incorrect.

This "dirty" use of the word likely comes from the etymology of the word which comes from Latin fornix (“arch, vault; brothel”) Arch as in a passageway, and that it was customary for courtesans of the era to wait for their customers out of the rain under these archways.

Can people just grow up and call it sex, its what it is in every case, its childish trying to label it any differently and frankly insulting to everyone to call it something else.

gaynorvader

mbiking123 wrote: »

That doctor should have his medical licence revoked so. There are a huge number of reasons for miscarriages, not all of which are understood.

.

Obviously a doctor, you explain it so. In fact given your message don't bother it will be too long winded[/QUOTE]

Nice, pick out one part of my post, ignoring all the rest and make a sarcastic comment about it then tell me not to reply. You, my friend, need to work on your debating techniques, because it feels to me like you couldn't come up with any reasons why any of my points were wrong.

Here's a link in case you actually feel like learning something.

mbiking123

Cabaal wrote: »

Not only has this thread provided that many anti-choice people don't understand science or women in general.

It seems many don't even understand the meaning of the word fornicate, this word refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other. In more modern usage its used in cases of premarital sex, sex before marriage, or extramarital sex.

Problem is I've seen it used in this thread in several cases to simply refer to the act of sex in general, its like the people that use it are simply incapable of using the word sex. Either that or they simply want to make the whole sexual act sound shameful by using the word fornication.....even if the usage of the word is basically incorrect.

This "dirty" use of the word likely comes from the etymology of the word which comes from Latin fornix (“arch, vault; brothel”) Arch as in a passageway, and that it was customary for courtesans of the era to wait for their customers out of the rain under these archways.

Can people just grow up and call it sex, its what it is in every case, its childish trying to label it any differently and frankly insulting to everyone to call it something else.

Its called pro-life as we are concerned of the life of the unborn child, more than you crowd obviously are

SEX, SEX, SEX. While we are at it why not just call it a shag ?

iwantmydinner

mbiking123 wrote: »

Its called pro-life as we are concerned of the life of the unborn child, more than you crowd obviously are

You're very clear that restricting choice is important to you.

Delirium

mbiking123 wrote: »

Its called pro-life as we are concerned of the life of the unborn child, more than you crowd obviously are

SEX, SEX, SEX. While we are at it why not just call it a shag ?

because sex is the correct term for it. Fornication only applies to a subset of sexual encounters.

Bannasidhe

mbiking123 wrote: »

Its called pro-life as we are concerned of the life of the unborn child, more than you crowd obviously are

SEX, SEX, SEX. While we are at it why not just call it a shag ?

And it's called Pro-Choice because other people recognise that this 'unborn child' is in the body of another human being who should be given a choice as to whether or not she wants to allow an 'unborn child' use of her body.

Funny how so many pro-'lifers' have zero interest in protecting the lives of women.

Why not just call it sex? No need for shouting it. No need to use euphamisms. Just plain old sex will do.

Cabaal

Priest resigns from Mater Hospital board over decision to comply with abortion law
The hospital’s decision to say it will comply with the abortion act has led to Father Kevin Doran’s resignation.

http://www.thejournal.ie/priest-mater-hospital-resigns-abortion-law-1110478-Oct2013/

For a man that was previously against cancer treatment for women on the basis of catholic ethos, I have to say I'd be happy to slam the door shut behind this backwards fool of a man.

Sierra 117

Hopefully he'll never work in a hospital ever again.

Cabaal

mbiking123 wrote: »

Its called pro-life as we are concerned of the life of the unborn child, more than you crowd obviously are

SEX, SEX, SEX. While we are at it why not just call it a shag ?

Pro-life is an inaccurate term though, especially when you consider that in cases of rape or incest you have no regard for the life of the women.

Oh and lets not forget cases where the fetus won't live outside the mother, so called pro-life groups are still against abortions in such instances and instead want the women to carry the fetus so it will never live when she gives birth, really thinking of the mental well being of the women in such a situation aren't they?

Not sure why you'd call it shag as this is slang, just call it sex. Thats what it is and by using the correct word it leaves no margin of error for what you mean.

kylith

mbiking123 wrote: »

Obviously a doctor, you explain it so. In fact given your message don't bother it will be too long winded

Some reasons for miscarriage not related to foetal abnormality:
Incompetent cervix
Accident
Injury
Disease
Smoking
Medications

robindch

Sierra 117 wrote: »

Hopefully he'll never work in a hospital ever again.

I'm inclined to think that he probably never has.

mbiking123

Cabaal wrote: »

Pro-life is an inaccurate term though, especially when you consider that in cases of rape or incest you have no regard for the life of the women.

Oh and lets not forget cases where the fetus won't live outside the mother, so called pro-life groups are still against abortions in such instances and instead want the women to carry the fetus so it will never live when she gives birth, really thinking of the mental well being of the women in such a situation aren't they?

Not sure why you'd call it shag as this is slang, just call it sex. Thats what it is and by using the correct word it leaves no margin of error for what you mean.

Pro-life is accurate, abortion is no solution to rape or incest. That's just an excuse that is brought up as why we should have abortion

I am not in any pro life group, or ever have been

How is the mental well being of a woman improved with an abortion, the x-case the girl had an abortion and was very distressed with the loss of the child. Imagine the damage an abortion would have done

Whatever way you want to take it abortion is ending a life

Imagine ending an old person life cause they need expensive medical treatment, or need a lot of care. When does life become unimportant - well WWII would be an example. Just because you believe an unborn is less than a person does that give you the right to end its life. that is what Hitler thought of the jews, polish, Russians, blacks etc they were beneath him.

Abortion is ending a life, cause it does not suit or inconvenient

Delirium

mbiking123 wrote: »

Pro-life is accurate, abortion is no solution to rape or incest. That's just an excuse that is brought up as why we should have abortion

I am not in any pro life group, or ever have been

How is the mental well being of a woman improved with an abortion, the x-case the girl had an abortion and was very distressed with the loss of the child. Imagine the damage an abortion would have done

And you think that a rape victim won't be distressed by virtue of being forced to carry her rapists baby to term?

Whatever way you want to take it abortion is ending a life

Imagine ending an old person life cause they need expensive medical treatment, or need a lot of care. When does life become unimportant - well WWII would be an example. Just because you believe an unborn is less than a person does that give you the right to end its life. that is what Hitler thought of the jews, polish, Russians, blacks etc they were beneath him.

There is a very distinct difference between a foetus and person.

Abortion is ending a life, cause it does not suit or inconvenient

As a general statement that's incorrect. Many women required abortions for valid medical reasons.

Cabaal

mbiking123 wrote: »

Pro-life is accurate, abortion is no solution to rape or incest. That's just an excuse that is brought up as why we should have abortion

I am not in any pro life group, or ever have been

How is the mental well being of a woman improved with an abortion, the x-case the girl had an abortion and was very distressed with the loss of the child. Imagine the damage an abortion would have done

Whatever way you want to take it abortion is ending a life

Imagine ending an old person life cause they need expensive medical treatment, or need a lot of care. When does life become unimportant - well WWII would be an example. Just because you believe an unborn is less than a person does that give you the right to end its life. that is what Hitler thought of the jews, polish, Russians, blacks etc they were beneath him.

Abortion is ending a life, cause it does not suit or inconvenient

Nice, I see how you completely ignored the situation of a fetus never living outside of the womb. Care to comment on why you think a women that wants an abortion in such a situation should be denied one?

Or do you prefer she continues to carry a fetus that won't live outside her body...because its the women's body keeping the fetus alive. Having an abortion when the fetus has no brain isn't ending any life, because it was never properly alive to begin with.



You can say an abortion in cases of rape or incest is not a solution, but thats not your call to make. Its the womens.

She is the person that has been violated on ever level, physically, emotionally and mentally when she was raped, forcing her to go through 9 months of hell is not the solution to this....it only prolongs this violation further.

Now if the women wants to keep the fetus then by all means she can,

But if she wants to end the violation then without a doubt she should be allowed. Denying her this right is deny her rights as a person.

Would you be happy to deny your wife/sister/cousin an abortion if she was raped and beaten and became pregnant and wants to have an abortion?

Will you be such a big person as to tell her she must give birth to the rapists offspring.

old hippy

mbiking123 wrote: »

Pro-life is accurate, abortion is no solution to rape or incest. That's just an excuse that is brought up as why we should have abortion

I am not in any pro life group, or ever have been

How is the mental well being of a woman improved with an abortion, the x-case the girl had an abortion and was very distressed with the loss of the child. Imagine the damage an abortion would have done

Whatever way you want to take it abortion is ending a life

Imagine ending an old person life cause they need expensive medical treatment, or need a lot of care. When does life become unimportant - well WWII would be an example. Just because you believe an unborn is less than a person does that give you the right to end its life. that is what Hitler thought of the jews, polish, Russians, blacks etc they were beneath him.

Abortion is ending a life, cause it does not suit or inconvenient

Abortion is the right to chose to end an unwanted pregnancy, whether it's from sex or rape. In the latter, what would you do? Force the woman to go through the trauma of pregnancy? Actually, sod it. Tired of treading on eggshells and feigning politeness to the ruthless, anti-women types who come on here. Forcing a woman to go through any pregancy (whether it's down to consent or rape) when she doesn't want it is barbaric.

Abortion is not the ending of a life, it's the continuation of one - the well-being of the person who got pregnant. Abortion is a surgical procedure. That's it.

As for Hitler? Absolutely nothing to do with the topic. I think it's been Godwinned enough.

kylith

mbiking123 wrote: »

How is the mental well being of a woman improved with an abortion, the x-case the girl had an abortion and was very distressed with the loss of the child. Imagine the damage an abortion would have done

She didn't have an abortion, and don't you think that her distress may have had something to do with her loss of control over her body? First she was raped, which she had no control over, then she became pregnant, which she had no control over, then she became the focus of national attention, which she had no control over, then she suffered a miscarriage which may have been painful and bloody, and which she had no control over. Don't you think that the total loss of control over what happened to her body had a huge part in causing her distress, rather than the loss of a foetus which she was planning to abort anyway?

What would you do if, say, your 15 year old daughter came to you in tears and told you that six weeks ago a boy had raped her, that she hadn't told you because she was ashamed and scared but now she thought she was pregnant, and she kept having nightmares about the rape, and she didn't want a baby, especially one that would be a reminder of her rapist every day for the rest of her life? Would you tell her 'Tough, it's been conceived. It has more right to bodily integrity than you, and you have to carry it to term', or would you be on the next flight to England with her to have a termination?

old hippy

kylith wrote: »

She didn't have an abortion, and don't you think that her distress may have had something to do with her loss of control over her body? First she was raped, which she had no control over, then she became pregnant, which she had no control over, then she became the focus of national attention, which she had no control over, then she suffered a miscarriage which may have been painful and bloody, and which she had no control over. Don't you think that the total loss of control over what happened to her body had a huge part in causing her distress, rather than the loss of a foetus which she was planning to abort anyway?

What would you do if, say, your 15 year old daughter came to you in tears and told you that six weeks ago a boy had raped her, that she hadn't told you because she was ashamed and scared but now she thought she was pregnant, and she kept having nightmares about the rape, and she didn't want a baby, especially one that would be a reminder of her rapist every day for the rest of her life? Would you tell her 'Tough, it's been conceived. It has more right to bodily integrity than you, and you have to carry it to term', or would you be on the next flight to England with her to have a termination?

I'd also like to know what Jack's response to this would be (after he relieves mbiking123 from his shift)...

kylith

old hippy wrote: »

I'd also like to know what Jack's response to this would be (after he relieves mbiking123 from his shift)...

I believe I asked Jack this same question yesterday. Still waiting for an answer, too.

Sarky

mbiking123 wrote: »

I am not in any pro life group, or ever have been

It's really, really hard to believe that when you keep on using the same tired old misrepresentations, appeals to ignorance/authority/anything and outright insults that the groups you've never been part of use.

Bannasidhe

mbiking123 wrote: »

the x-case the girl had an abortion

No she did not. She had a miscarriage.

You do realise she could be reading these lies you have written about her. Once again a pro-lifer shows their lack or respect for women.

Imagine ending an old person life cause they need expensive medical treatment, or need a lot of care. When does life become unimportant - well WWII would be an example. Just because you believe an unborn is less than a person does that give you the right to end its life. that is what Hitler thought of the jews, polish, Russians, blacks etc they were beneath him.

Abortion is ending a life, cause it does not suit or inconvenient

Godwin already. That didn't take you long.

When does a woman's life become unimportant? As soon as she is pregnant in Ireland because the State will force here to carry a feotus to term even if that fetus is incompatible with life - That is Fascism.