Abortion Discussion

mbiking123

kylith wrote: »

She didn't have an abortion, and don't you think that her distress may have had something to do with her loss of control over her body? First she was raped, which she had no control over, then she became pregnant, which she had no control over, then she became the focus of national attention, which she had no control over, then she suffered a miscarriage which may have been painful and bloody, and which she had no control over. Don't you think that the total loss of control over what happened to her body had a huge part in causing her distress, rather than the loss of a foetus which she was planning to abort anyway?

What would you do if, say, your 15 year old daughter came to you in tears and told you that six weeks ago a boy had raped her, that she hadn't told you because she was ashamed and scared but now she thought she was pregnant, and she kept having nightmares about the rape, and she didn't want a baby, especially one that would be a reminder of her rapist every day for the rest of her life? Would you tell her 'Tough, it's been conceived. It has more right to bodily integrity than you, and you have to carry it to term', or would you be on the next flight to England with her to have a termination?

Correct, (typo)my mistake she had a miscarriage, and was deeply affected

Imagine the effect of an abortion would have had on her-despite the fact she thought she wanted one

mbiking123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You do realise she could be reading these lies you have written about her. Once again a pro-lifer shows their lack or respect for women.

What happens if unborn child is a female, is that last of respect for women too

mbiking123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As soon as she is pregnant in Ireland because the State will force here to carry a feotus to term even if that fetus is incompatible with life - That is Fascism.

No fascism is - A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

secondrowgal

mbiking123 wrote: »

Correct, my mistake she had a miscarriage, and was deeply affected

Imagine the effect of an abortion would have had on her-despite the fact she thought she wanted one

Ok, I'll imagine...

I imagine that she was as happy as the day is long that she had managed to take control of her own life, situation and body after a heinous crime had been perpetrated on her by someone else.

I imagine that she came out of the abortion clinic/hospital/building where the abortion was performed with a smile on her face.

I imagine that she would have gone on to have a happy and fruitful life, and maybe even had children later on, when she wanted, after consensual sex.

I imagine that she would have lived a hell of a lot happily ever after then she has done after been forced through the ordeal that she was forced through by our archaic and barbaric laws.

Thanks.

mbiking123

secondrowgal wrote: »

Ok, I'll imagine...

I imagine that she was as happy as the day is long that she had managed to take control of her own life, situation and body after a heinous crime had been perpetrated on her by someone else.

I imagine that she came out of the abortion clinic/hospital/building where the abortion was performed with a smile on her face.

I imagine that she would have gone on to have a happy and fruitful life, and maybe even had children later on, when she wanted, after consensual sex.

I imagine that she would have lived a hell of a lot happily ever after then she has done after been forced through the ordeal that she was forced through by our archaic and barbaric laws.

Thanks.

Well that says it all, how can ending a life bring a smile to ones face - sad people - sad - sad - sad

robindch

mbiking123 wrote: »

[...] that is what Hitler thought of the jews, polish, Russians, blacks etc they were beneath him [...]

Try arguing the argument instead of Godwinning yourself.

Delirium

mbiking123 wrote: »

Well that says it all, how can ending a life bring a smile to ones face - sad people - sad - sad - sad

as if putting her in a situation where she has to go through a miscarriage is any better.

Cabaal

mbiking123 wrote: »

Well that says it all, how can ending a life bring a smile to ones face - sad people - sad - sad - sad

you prefer the women being miserable all her life after giving birth to a rapists offspring?

Answer me this questions:
- Are you happy with the fetus being created out of a rape?
- Do you think the women should cherish the rapists offspring being inside her body?
- Do you think the rapist should have legal rights to see his offspring if it is born?

kylith

mbiking123 wrote: »

Correct, (typo)my mistake she had a miscarriage, and was deeply affected

Imagine the effect of an abortion would have had on her-despite the fact she thought she wanted one

What gives you the right to presume to know how she would feel, and to presume to know what she 'really' wanted than what she 'thought' she wanted? She might have been depressed, or she might have been delighted, we will never know. The fact remains that the choice, and the consequences, should be the woman's.

If you could answer my question as to whether or not you'd force a teenage rape victim in your own family to carry a pregnancy to term, that'd be great. Thanks.

secondrowgal

mbiking123 wrote: »

Well that says it all, how can ending a life bring a smile to ones face - sad people - sad - sad - sad

How can making a 15 year old rape victim go through with a pregnancy that she didn't choose or want be allowed or expected?

Now that's sad.

Bannasidhe

mbiking123 wrote: »

What happens if unborn child is a female, is that last of respect for women too

Ah, I was wondering when you would play that card.

For the first few weeks - when most abortions take place - an embryo doesn't even have a gender so how can it be 'female'?

Bannasidhe

mbiking123 wrote: »

No fascism is - A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Fascism is also when the State restricts the rights and liberties of the individual to suit a particular ideology and enforces this with the threat of punishment.

I see you know as much about political ideology as you do about embryonic development.

Turtwig

Somewhere out there in the Oort cloud the gender is being predetermined.

Sarky

Jernal wrote: »

Somewhere out there in the Oort cloud the gender is being predetermined.

Linky?

Turtwig

Sarky wrote: »

Linky?

It is the transcendent birth place of comets from which one may have seeded our very planet. Thus it set forth in motion all the outcomes of this biosphere.
The comets themselves descended on our planet with a grace and finesse and from them all stories are told.

(Link may suggest none of the above is true. )

Sarky

Well, I suppose it makes as much sense as any of the anti-abortion, ahem, arguments we've seen recently. Carry on, I suppose.

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

Well, I suppose it makes as much sense as any of the anti-abortion, ahem, arguments we've seen recently. Carry on, I suppose.

It's certainly better written.

Sarky

Wikipedia often is. I think it's the way mistakes can be corrected and people generally try to make it more accurate with the inclusion of links and evidence.

Jack Kyle

Cabaal wrote: »

It seems many don't even understand the meaning of the word fornicate, this word refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other. In more modern usage its used in cases of premarital sex, sex before marriage, or extramarital sex.

Problem is I've seen it used in this thread in several cases to simply refer to the act of sex in general, its like the people that use it are simply incapable of using the word sex. Either that or they simply want to make the whole sexual act sound shameful by using the word fornication.....even if the usage of the word is basically incorrect.

This "dirty" use of the word likely comes from the etymology of the word which comes from Latin fornix (“arch, vault; brothel”) Arch as in a passageway, and that it was customary for courtesans of the era to wait for their customers out of the rain under these archways.

Can people just grow up and call it sex, its what it is in every case, its childish trying to label it any differently and frankly insulting to everyone to call it something else.

If that's directed at me, my use of the term "fornicate" is deliberate (one benefit of a classical education).

When discussing people who aren't married and who intend to use abortion as a means of contraception if needs be, it's perfectly apt.

Sarky

Were there any other benefits to this classical education? Only they seem to have left out basic logic, biology and a few other things.

Jack Kyle

Sarky wrote: »

Were there any other benefits to this classical education? Only they seem to have left out basic logic and a few other things.

Quite a few...such as being far more capable of logical thought than most posters in this thread.

The rabid pro abortion slant within this thread is breathtaking.

Sarky

Yes, because spaying people or restraining women and forcing them to birth babbies to satisfy your bizarre views is the height of logic.

jill_valentine

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Quite a few...such as being far more capable of logical thought than most posters in this thread.

The rabid pro abortion slant within this thread is breathtaking.

You keep saying that, but you haven't really offered anything for the contrary argument that held up to even the slightest challenge. Could it be then that, rather than bias - bias like that which lies under the nonsense term "pro abortion" - it's just that one side has overwhelming documentary foundation, support and ethical reasoning at their backs in comparison to the other?

I'm not sure you understand what bias means. We are not required to treat nonsensical, weak or fallacious arguments as if they have any merit, if that's what you want.

robindch

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Sarky wrote: »

Jack Kyle wrote: »

If that's directed at me, my use of the term "fornicate" is deliberate (one benefit of a classical education).

Were there any other benefits to this classical education? Only they seem to have left out basic logic, biology and a few other things.

Quite a few...such as being far more capable of logical thought than most posters in this thread.

As somebody with a fairly serious classical education myself, I must say I recall a lot of philosophy, a lot of elegant language games, but very little in the line of strict logic.

Independent of your view of abortion, and I hope independent of the classical education you claim to have received, the logic you've shown on this thread to date - miserabile visu - sucks something shocking, Jack.

shruikan2553

mbiking123 wrote: »

Correct, (typo)my mistake she had a miscarriage, and was deeply affected

Imagine the effect of an abortion would have had on her-despite the fact she thought she wanted one

Are you going to answer the second part? Dont worry, if you dont it doesnt make you any different to those asked before you. They avoided the question too. Maybe because they knew that they would probably go against what they are meant to believe.

Cabaal

Jack Kyle wrote: »

If that's directed at me, my use of the term "fornicate" is deliberate (one benefit of a classical education).

When discussing people who aren't married and who intend to use abortion as a means of contraception if needs be, it's perfectly apt.

Well, don't we think we are mighty important?

Actually I was directing it at mbiking123.

Your use and misuse of the word however is childish and shows that you clearly look down on people that are not married, maybe thats also part and parcel of your so called classical education?

You do know its possible to be married and not to want any kids and as such to want an abortion if you get pregnant, right?...not everyone wants kids when they are married.

iwantmydinner

mbiking123 wrote: »

Well that says it all, how can ending a life bring a smile to ones face - sad people - sad - sad - sad

A child of 15 being able to safely, quickly and legally end the traumatic pregnancy which resulted from a traumatic rape would absolutely be a cause for relief and a certain degree of happiness. I don't understand why you can't see that?

Morag

Funny how the anti abortion people often refuse to address the fact that forced pregnancy is torture.
http://www.policymic.com/articles/30925/un-report-classifies-lack-of-access-to-abortion-as-torture

The importance of the report cannot be understated. In the past, human rights organizations such as Amnesty International have called upon the United Nations Committee against Torture to intervene in countries such as Nicaragua where a total ban on abortion and criminalization of doctors who provide the procedure and women and girls who obtain them has been instated. Nicaragua's penal code goes so far as to penalize women who undergo miscarriages as it is often hard to discern between a miscarriage (or spontaneous abortion) and a selective abortion. Indeed, Amnesty reports that doctors and nurses are hesitant to treat extremely ill patients for fear that they may in turn harm the fetus and find themselves facing jail time. This new UN report, specifically referring to denial by the state of the right to safely terminate an unwanted pregnancy as torture or ill treatment, is promising for moving women's rights forward globally and in hopefully reversing such dangerous bans as in Nicaragua.

Moreover, the report highlights the importance of eliminating government bureaucracy in women's health care – particularly with regards to rape survivors seeking abortion care. Throwing in boulders in the way of women's access to health care serves no legitimate purpose but to humiliate and hinder the rights of women to obtain a basic right. Even allowing abortion only in the case of rape or incest puts the burden on a woman to prove that she was a victim of such a trauma. Doing such only strains government resources, and more importantly, severely inconveniences women seeking care by forcing them to jump through hoops in pursuit of a simple medical procedure.

The special rapporteur demands for legal abortion worldwide, as well as ensuring safe and available access to abortion. This is an important point because without ready access to abortion there is no such thing as reproductive choice.

old hippy

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Quite a few...such as being far more capable of logical thought than most posters in this thread.

The rabid pro abortion slant within this thread is breathtaking.

"Rabid"?

You jest, surely?

Btw, how would you react if (heavens forbid) one of your family was attacked and got pregnant? Would you extend the trauma and make them go through with it, knowing the anguish it would cause? If they refused, would you restrain them?

Cabaal

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Quite a few...such as being far more capable of logical thought than most posters in this thread.

FANTASTIC!,
Well, since I put these questions to mbiking123 i might as well put them to you as well. You can put that apparent ability to think logically to use.

1. Would you be happy to deny your wife/sister/cousin an abortion if she was raped and beaten and became pregnant and wants to have an abortion? Will you be such a big person as to tell her she must give birth to the rapists offspring?

2 Are you happy with the fetus being created out of a rape?

3 Do you think the women should cherish the rapists offspring being inside her body?

4 Do you think the rapist should have legal rights to see his offspring if it is born? If no, then why would you deny the rights of another human being and the child?