Abortion Discussion

mbiking123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Fascism is also when the State restricts the rights and liberties of the individual to suit a particular ideology and enforces this with the threat of punishment.

I see you know as much about political ideology as you do about embryonic development.

Fascism is where the innocent are killed, like the unborn child - innocent

You may feel you know more than I do but at least I have compassion, oh go back to the girl being raped etc etc as if an abortion is the solution

Abortion is not the solution/cure for suicide

Just a back door so ye crowd can get abortion in, come up with an example (or what you think is an example) and then that makes it okay

example - Kermit Gosnell stands trial for the gruesome murder of at least four babies born alive as the result of botched abortions. The murder charges related to a patient who died while under his care and seven newborns said to have been killed after being born alive during attempted abortions. In May 2013, he was convicted on three of the murder charges, 21 felony counts of illegal late-term abortion, and 211 counts of violating the 24-hour informed consent law.

botched abortions do happen ! they are not all safe. Things can go wrong.


Now they are talking about doing after birth abortions http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2379583/Students-sign-petition-legalize-abortion-childbirth.html Mr Joseph, a self-proclaimed conservative activist, said the petition was aimed at sending ‘a message to our lawmakers that women have the right to choose what to do with their bodies and babies’ even after giving birth.

This abortion is going mad, where does it end !

Now 10 different people can heckle now !!!

mbiking123

Cabaal wrote: »

FANTASTIC!,
Well, since I put these questions to mbiking123 i might as well put them to you as well. You can put that apparent ability to think logically to use.

1. Would you be happy to deny your wife/sister/cousin an abortion if she was raped and beaten and became pregnant and wants to have an abortion? Will you be such a big person as to tell her she must give birth to the rapists offspring?

2 Are you happy with the fetus being created out of a rape?

3 Do you think the women should cherish the rapists offspring being inside her body?

4 Do you think the rapist should have legal rights to see his offspring if it is born? If no, then why would you deny the rights of another human being and the child?

Back to same old issue, how can I approve of killing of an innocent child, I cant

So the rest of the answers are obvious

Delirium

Every medical procedure carries a risk. That in and of itself is not a good reason to ban it.

gaynorvader

mbiking123 wrote: »

Back to same old issue, how can I approve of killing of an innocent child, I cant

So the rest of the answers are obvious

A bunch of human cells is not a child.

Sarky

mbiking123 wrote: »

Fascism is where the innocent are killed, like the unborn child - innocent

You may feel you know more than I do but at least I have compassion, oh go back to the girl being raped etc etc as if an abortion is the solution

Abortion is not the solution/cure for suicide

Just a back door so ye crowd can get abortion in, come up with an example (or what you think is an example) and then that makes it okay

example - Kermit Gosnell stands trial for the gruesome murder of at least four babies born alive as the result of botched abortions. The murder charges related to a patient who died while under his care and seven newborns said to have been killed after being born alive during attempted abortions. In May 2013, he was convicted on three of the murder charges, 21 felony counts of illegal late-term abortion, and 211 counts of violating the 24-hour informed consent law.

botched abortions do happen ! they are not all safe. Things can go wrong.


Now they are talking about doing after birth abortions http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2379583/Students-sign-petition-legalize-abortion-childbirth.html Mr Joseph, a self-proclaimed conservative activist, said the petition was aimed at sending ‘a message to our lawmakers that women have the right to choose what to do with their bodies and babies’ even after giving birth.

This abortion is going mad, where does it end !

Now 10 different people can heckle now !!!

Hitler, Gosnell and the Daily Mail in the space of 2 posts. That's some impressive hysterical ignorance there. You could bottle it and sell it to Youth Defence.

Cabaal

mbiking123 wrote: »

Back to same old issue, how can I approve of killing of an innocent child, I cant

So the rest of the answers are obvious

Obvious?, well no not really...just because you deny the women who has been raped the right to an abortion doesn't mean you automatically think its ok to force the women to have to interact with that rapist for the rest of her life by enabling the rapist to have legal rights to see his off spring.

But Ok, so just to clarify?

You would deny your wife/sister/cousin an abortion if she was raped and beaten and became pregnant and wants to have an abortion

You are happy with the fetus being created out of a rape.

You do think think the women should cherish the rapists offspring being inside her body.

You do think think the rapist should have legal rights to see his offspring if it is born.

I just want to make sure I'm not picking you up wrong and we're all aware of your position on such important issues going forward.

Sarky

This'll have YD, Quinn et al. confused as all Hell:

2 year old boy in China has an abortion to save his life from his own twin..

Frito

Sarky wrote: »

This'll have YD, Quinn et al. confused as all Hell:

2 year old boy in China has an abortion to save his life from his own twin..

I expect to read a shattering report denouncing China's human rights record where now even babies, BABIES, must abort their children to comply with the one-child policy.

Brian Shanahan

mbiking123 wrote: »

maybe after your dead, maybe not

Unless Bannashide will be dead within ten years probably not.

Frankly if it were put to a referendum in the morning with only unbiased information available (i.e. no Hitler Jugend Defence or similar propoganda) then I believe the people of this country would vote for a system similar to that prevailing across Europe.

Morag

Sarky wrote: »

This'll have YD, Quinn et al. confused as all Hell:

2 year old boy in China has an abortion to save his life from his own twin..

I dread to think what would happen to a child like that here.
Then again as the 8th amendment only references a woman's life being equal to that of the unborn maybe it would not apply and the abortion would be carried out legally.

Sarky

I suspect the religious nutters would first paint it as a gross example of the homosexual agenda, then when both inevitably die because abortion is abortion, as a miracle that was defiled by the libral meeja.

Jack Kyle

jill_valentine wrote: »

You keep saying that, but you haven't really offered anything for the contrary argument that held up to even the slightest challenge. Could it be then that, rather than bias - bias like that which lies under the nonsense term "pro abortion" - it's just that one side has overwhelming documentary foundation, support and ethical reasoning at their backs in comparison to the other?

I'm not sure you understand what bias means. We are not required to treat nonsensical, weak or fallacious arguments as if they have any merit, if that's what you want.[/quote

Absolutely not.

All that the pro abortion side seem to offer is strident claims that a woman has the right to kill the unborn child inside her, sycophantic thanking of each others' posts, ludicrous and irrelevant analogies about organ donation and general smug back slapping.

Exactly what "documentary foundation" are you referring to? Because all I see is pro abortion feminist claptrap telling men to "butt out" and the general erosion of basic morality (i.e. don't kill unborn children).

This boils down to a simple question...should we as a society suppport the killing of unborn babies?

Of course we shouldn't.

Sarky

Look harder, Jack. Try to see beyond your own myopic opinions.

swampgas

mbiking123 wrote: »

Back to same old issue, how can I approve of killing of an innocent child, I cant

So the rest of the answers are obvious

Except there isn't a child yet, not even a baby - there is just an embryo or foetus. Sure, if we let the pregnancy carry on for quite a few months we my end up with a baby, and eventually a child, but a woman who is a few weeks pregnant isn't carrying a "child" in the usual sense of the word.

You think a woman should be forced to continue with a pregnancy that she doesn't want. Do you think she should be prevented from travelling to the UK to get an abortion there?

How far are you prepared to go? Remember the X case kicked off because the guards were informed that the girl was travelling to the UK for an abortion and they locked her up. Is that what you want to go back to?

gaynorvader

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Absolutely not.

All that the pro abortion side seem to offer is strident claims that a woman has the right to kill the unborn child inside her, sycophantic thanking of each others' posts, ludicrous and irrelevant analogies about organ donation and general smug back slapping.

Exactly what "documentary foundation" are you referring to? Because all I see is pro abortion feminist claptrap telling men to "butt out" and the general erosion of basic morality (i.e. don't kill unborn children).

This boils down to a simple question...should we as a society suppport the killing of unborn babies?

Of course we shouldn't.

gaynorvader wrote: »

A bunch of human cells is not a child.

That seems to be where you're having a problem seeing the opposition's argument.

Brian Shanahan

mbiking123 wrote: »

Economics says have more children - that's another one

a) Economics is not a science.
b) By all scientific measures the human population of the world is too high currently (one of the causes of the causes of global warming).
c) You've a very insular vision about Ireland's population. Me, I'm broadly in favour of immigration into Ireland, the Irish in the past and currently have travelled the world, hence the massive diaspora.

swampgas

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Exactly what "documentary foundation" are you referring to? Because all I see is pro abortion feminist claptrap telling men to "butt out" and the general erosion of basic morality (i.e. don't kill unborn children).

I think you want men to be able to control what women can do when they have an unwanted pregnancy. It's not just men who should butt out - it's everyone else, male or female. It's her body.

This boils down to a simple question...should we as a society suppport the killing of unborn babies? Of course we shouldn't.

Once again, you keep using the word "babies" to describe something that is only a potential baby. Nobody here wants babies killed.

If your argument is the simplistic "abortion = killing babies = murder" then believe me we've heard it before. It's a facile and stupid argument which simply doesn't reflect reality.

As for what we as a society want, opinion polls would suggest support for far more liberal abortion laws than we now have, In other words, a majority of people do want more accessible abortion.

gaynorvader

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

{..}
c) You've a very insular vision about Ireland's population. Me, I'm broadly in favour of immigration into Ireland, the Irish in the past and currently have travelled the world, hence the massive diaspora.

And all the countries they travelled to in large numbers have not gone to war with each other in that time! Clearly we need to emigrate more.

Brian Shanahan

mbiking123 wrote: »

Its called pro-life as we are concerned of the life of the unborn child, more than you crowd obviously are

No it's called pro-life because you lot are very quick to use lies in your "arguments", and we are too polite to point out the fallacy of the labels you give yourselves and the words you use (e.g. "life of the unborn", unborn=not yet alive, therefore an unborn foetus cannot be alive, it simply has the potential for life).

Turtwig

Folks,

Can we please stop using the word "lies" and implying other are lying. Unless you have definitive proof that the user is intentional posting false information and the detail is provided in your post, please stop implying others are lying. It's not one bit helpful to the discussion. Point out where they are wrong.

Brian Shanahan

gaynorvader wrote: »

And all the countries they travelled to in large numbers have not gone to war with each other in that time! Clearly we need to emigrate more.

You should get onto Milton Thomas Friedmann. His "golden arches theory" of conflict prevention has been looking ropey since the US bombed Belgrade.

The Irish emigration theory may be a worthy replacement.

Bannasidhe

mbiking123 wrote: »

Fascism is where the innocent are killed, like the unborn child - innocent

You may feel you know more than I do but at least I have compassion, oh go back to the girl being raped etc etc as if an abortion is the solution

Abortion is not the solution/cure for suicide

Just a back door so ye crowd can get abortion in, come up with an example (or what you think is an example) and then that makes it okay

example - Kermit Gosnell stands trial for the gruesome murder of at least four babies born alive as the result of botched abortions. The murder charges related to a patient who died while under his care and seven newborns said to have been killed after being born alive during attempted abortions. In May 2013, he was convicted on three of the murder charges, 21 felony counts of illegal late-term abortion, and 211 counts of violating the 24-hour informed consent law.

botched abortions do happen ! they are not all safe. Things can go wrong.


Now they are talking about doing after birth abortions http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2379583/Students-sign-petition-legalize-abortion-childbirth.html Mr Joseph, a self-proclaimed conservative activist, said the petition was aimed at sending ‘a message to our lawmakers that women have the right to choose what to do with their bodies and babies’ even after giving birth.

This abortion is going mad, where does it end !

Now 10 different people can heckle now !!!

Heckle??

I'm still waiting for you to produce an actual argument rather than this hysterical babbling about Nazis and now Gosnell. Will you be much longer as I have a flight to catch early in the morning?

As for you having compassion -I do not think this word means what you think it means.

(BTW - congratulations - Striiikeee Threeee!! Mods - could we organise a prize? Maybe a punctured ball)

Do you have a womb by the way?

Bannasidhe

PopePalpatine wrote: »

<SNIP>

And let the 'interesting' comments go unchallenged? I think not.

I am sitting here in my hotel room hiding from my head melting travel companion pondering the fact that my belief in universal franchise is sometimes stretched to it's limit when I see the opinions of people who get to vote on decisions that will never ever personally impact on their right to control what happens their bodies ...

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And let the 'interesting' comments go unchallenged? I think not.

I am sitting here in my hotel room hiding from my head melting travel companion pondering the fact that my belief in universal franchise is sometimes stretched to it's limit when I see the opinions of people who get to vote on decisions that will never ever personally impact on their right to control what happens their bodies ...

Yup, we all know that one. I look forward to a day when we actually get to vote on something so momentous as dealing with the fact of Irish womens' abortions in this country.

I do understand that some people have an unshakable faith in an idea, however unpopular it is. The "abortion is murder" crowd have very similarly intractable views to the "meat is murder" vegetarians. It's a viewpoint that has merit only when you hold the conviction that an animal has an equal right to life to a human. I don't. I also don't hold that a human non-sentient fetus has an equal right to life to a born human, any more than the cow did, part of which is currently negotiating it's way through my stomach.

What is so unfortunate is that these "abortion is murder" people's moral righteousness has such a negative impact on people's lives in Ireland.

Jack Kyle

Obliq wrote: »

Yup, we all know that one. I look forward to a day when we actually get to vote on something so momentous as dealing with the fact of Irish womens' abortions in this country.

I do understand that some people have an unshakable faith in an idea, however unpopular it is. The "abortion is murder" crowd have very similarly intractable views to the "meat is murder" vegetarians. It's a viewpoint that has merit only when you hold the conviction that an animal has an equal right to life to a human. I don't. I also don't hold that a human non-sentient fetus has an equal right to life to a born human, any more than the cow did, part of which is currently negotiating it's way through my stomach.

What is so unfortunate is that these "abortion is murder" people's moral righteousness has such a negative impact on people's lives in Ireland.

Go to a 12 week scan. Then see if you're still okay with an unborn child being killed.

One side criticises guys for involving themselves in the argument but they have to in order to stand up for those unborn children's rights.

This quest for sex without consequences smacks of wanting one's cake and eating it...zero accountability. Women (and men) want to engage in sluttish behaviour and sod the consequences. Throwaway society. Why not just get spayed/sterilised and then live your life without fear of the consequences.

All of this "these are tired arguments"/we've won the argument smug posts from the pro abortion side miss the point completely...if you support widespread and freely available abortion, you are an amoral disgrace and unfit to be in a position to influence anyone, especially children.

It is beyond doubt that abortion is evil and wrong in all but certain very limited circumstances.

Nodin

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Go to a 12 week scan. Then see if you're still okay with an unborn child being killed.

One side criticises guys for involving themselves in the argument but they have to in order to stand up for those unborn children's rights.

This quest for sex without consequences smacks of wanting one's cake and eating it...zero accountability. Women (and men) want to engage in sluttish behaviour and sod the consequences. Throwaway society. Why not just get spayed/sterilised and then live your life without fear of the consequences.

All of this "these are tired arguments"/we've won the argument smug posts from the pro abortion side miss the point completely...if you support widespread and freely available abortion, you are an amoral disgrace and unfit to be in a position to influence anyone, especially children.

It is beyond doubt that abortion is evil and wrong in all but certain very limited circumstances.

Dear me. How very victorian.

Jack Kyle

We may as well be debating the merits or otherwise of kiddy fiddling.

Abortion, murder, child molestation and rape are all there on the spectrum of vile and evil behaviour.

This thread is incredible really.

The majority of posters are saying that it's okay to butcher unborn babies. A few lone voices of sanity are rightly saying that this is b..locks.

Have you seen/heard about how some abortions are performed? Babies stabbed in the head with scissors...legs broken and chopped off...brains hoovered out of their skulls and then dragged from their mothers to be burned in furnaces.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction

"But sure this is a women's issue."

"It's my body".

Well no...f..k that...standing idly by while an agenda like this is pushed by dark forces is the kind of behaviour that facilitated and enabled Nazism.

Morag

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Go to a 12 week scan. Then see if you're still okay with an unborn child being killed.

I have and I still went through with my abortion I was 12 weeks pregnant.
I don't regret it one iota, esp as if I had not have made that choice I would not have the children I have now.

Jack Kyle wrote: »

This quest for sex without consequences smacks of wanting one's cake and eating it...zero accountability. Women (and men) want to engage in sluttish behaviour and sod the consequences. Throwaway society. Why not just get spayed/sterilised and then live your life without fear of the consequences.

Tubal ligations are very difficult for women to get in this country due to the best practice guides which were formed under a catholic ethos. I would have loved one after my second child but was refused.

Have you done any work or lobbying to make tubal ligation's more accessible?

But neither tubal ligation or vasectomies are 100% effective, infact the IUS is more effective then a tubal ligation but really if that fails and I was to discover I was pregnant I would have another abortion. I am done with having children. Having an abortion is dealing with the consequences and being responsible instead of risking my health with another pregnancy to have a child I did not want.

Jack Kyle wrote: »

All of this "these are tired arguments"/we've won the argument smug posts from the pro abortion side miss the point completely...if you support widespread and freely available abortion, you are an amoral disgrace and unfit to be in a position to influence anyone, especially children.

So I should have my children take off me and not be involved in youth work cos I had an abortion and believe in a woman's right to choose?

Jack Kyle wrote: »

It is beyond doubt that abortion is evil and wrong in all but certain very limited circumstances.

That is your dogma, not mine.

I think calling women who have abortions murders is evil.
I think refusing women the right to choose is wrong.

Delirium

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Go to a 12 week scan. Then see if you're still okay with an unborn child being killed.

One side criticises guys for involving themselves in the argument but they have to in order to stand up for those unborn children's rights.

This quest for sex without consequences smacks of wanting one's cake and eating it...zero accountability. Women (and men) want to engage in sluttish behaviour and sod the consequences. Throwaway society. Why not just get spayed/sterilised and then live your life without fear of the consequences.

All of this "these are tired arguments"/we've won the argument smug posts from the pro abortion side miss the point completely...if you support widespread and freely available abortion, you are an amoral disgrace and unfit to be in a position to influence anyone, especially children.

It is beyond doubt that abortion is evil and wrong in all but certain very limited circumstances.

No, that's just your opinion.

Corkfeen

Jack, I'd suspect many people in this topic have had children and have seen plenty of twelve week scans. Also in regards to you saying that support of abortion is in some way anti male, it's a mixture of men and women that are pro choice although you'll have a greater proportion that are women because it's first and foremost about a woman having control over her body.