Abortion Discussion

mbiking123 · 03-10-2013 10:53am

kylith wrote: »

You see, that’s a pro-choice argument. “The choices we make are ultimately our own responsibility” meaning that it is up to each individual to make choices and, well, accept responsibility for them. If a woman chooses to have an abortion then it is her resposibility to square it with her own conscience.

You are responsible for your actions, cant put the blame on someone else

In the example of rape, the rapist is guilty, they should suffer not the child

Cant shed the blame, when you kill the child you are responsible

At 30 Weeks

For several months, the umbilical cord has been the baby's lifeline to the mother. Nourishment is transferred from the mother's blood, through the placenta, and into the umbilical cord to the fetus. If the mother ingests any toxic substances, such as drugs or alcohol, the baby receives these as well.
32 weeks: The fetus sleeps 90-95% of the day, and sometimes experiences REM sleep, an indication of dreaming.
Partial-Birth Abortion

Five steps to a partial birth abortion:

Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's legs with forceps.
The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.
The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head.
The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the skull.
The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.

Do this type of stuff and you are responsible

iwantmydinner · 03-10-2013 11:02am

mbiking123 wrote: »

You are responsible for your actions, cant put the blame on someone else

In the example of rape, the rapist is guilty, they should suffer not the child

Cant shed the blame, when you kill the child you are responsible

And, um, what about the rape victim?

You talk about the rapist, and the rapist's foetus, but not the living, breathing human woman who was not only raped but now has to deal with the resulting pregnancy? You have left her completely out of the equation... except to tell her that she is a baby murderer if she feels unable to continue the pregnancy resulting from the rape.

That's extremely revealing about your attitude towards and empathy for women.

Delirium · 03-10-2013 11:07am

Where is such an abortion (partial-birth) legal?

Cabaal · 03-10-2013 11:12am

mbiking123 wrote: »

You are responsible for your actions, cant put the blame on someone else

In the example of rape, the rapist is guilty, they should suffer not the child

Sigh
Its a fetus, not a child.

Also, so the rapist is guilty but the victim should continue to suffer for the rest of their life? Nice!

Oh and based on your previous responses you also apparently believe the rapist should have legal access to their off spring. Thus ensuring the victim has to interact with the rapist for decades more.

Where in this situation are you helping the women who has been raped exactly? On what level exactly? Is it with prayers?

kylith · 03-10-2013 11:55am

mbiking123 wrote: »

You are responsible for your actions, cant put the blame on someone else

In the example of rape, the rapist is guilty, they should suffer not the child

Cant shed the blame, when you kill the child you are responsible

The rapist is guilty and should suffer. We agree there.
The foetus should not suffer. Well, since it won't have a brain capable of feeling pain until about 22-24 weeks it won't suffer, so no problem there.
You don't mention the woman who was raped, the victim of the rape, if you will. Why should she suffer pregnancy and childbirth, with its attendant risks to life and health?

mbiking123 wrote:

At 30 Weeks

For several months, the umbilical cord has ... [snip partial birth abortion stuff which has nothing to do with anything]

Who is talking about partial birth abortion? Who has advocated this? What has 30 weeks gestation got to do with a termination at 9 weeks gestation?

iwantmydinner wrote: »

And, um, what about the rape victim?

You talk about the rapist, and the rapist's foetus, but not the living, breathing human woman who was not only raped but now has to deal with the resulting pregnancy? You have left her completely out of the equation... except to tell her that she is a baby murderer if she feels unable to continue the pregnancy resulting from the rape.

That's extremely revealing about your attitude towards and empathy for women.

I agree.

Cabaal wrote: »

Sigh
Its a fetus, not a child.

Also, so the rapist is guilty but the victim should continue to suffer for the rest of their life? Nice!

Oh and based on your previous responses you also apparently believe the rapist should have legal access to their off spring. Thus ensuring the victim has to interact with the rapist for decades more.

Where in this situation are you helping the women who has been raped exactly? On what level exactly? Is it with prayers?

Maybe mbiking123 feels that a return to the biblical law of a woman being forced to marry her rapist is needed. That way the rapist will never have to worry about getting access to their offspring.

gaynorvader · 03-10-2013 12:06pm

mbiking123 wrote: »

You are responsible for your actions, cant put the blame on someone else

In the example of rape, the rapist is guilty, they should suffer not the child

Cant shed the blame, when you kill the child you are responsible

At 30 Weeks

For several months, the umbilical cord has been the baby's lifeline to the mother. Nourishment is transferred from the mother's blood, through the placenta, and into the umbilical cord to the fetus. If the mother ingests any toxic substances, such as drugs or alcohol, the baby receives these as well.
32 weeks: The fetus sleeps 90-95% of the day, and sometimes experiences REM sleep, an indication of dreaming.
Partial-Birth Abortion
{...}

I don't think anyone's advocating 30+ week abortions. I think the latest is around 22-24 weeks.

mbiking123 · 03-10-2013 12:15pm

kylith wrote: »

Maybe mbiking123 feels that a return to the biblical law of a woman being forced to marry her rapist is needed. That way the rapist will never have to worry about getting access to their offspring.

Why do pre-choice/pro abortion keep going back to religion, nothing to do with religion

old hippy · 03-10-2013 12:15pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Then get sterilised.

I'm sorry, but if someone wants to have sex and pregnancy would be an absolute disaster for them, then they should get spayed.

It's foolish not to.

Does spaying apply to fornincating menfolk as well? We like sextoo but it would be a disaster if pregnancy occured.

mbiking123 · 03-10-2013 12:18pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Sigh
Its a fetus, not a child.

Also, so the rapist is guilty but the victim should continue to suffer for the rest of their life? Nice!

Oh and based on your previous responses you also apparently believe the rapist should have legal access to their off spring. Thus ensuring the victim has to interact with the rapist for decades more.

Where in this situation are you helping the women who has been raped exactly? On what level exactly? Is it with prayers?

back to religion stuff here again

In crime the victim suffers and will always suffer - as an example a person house being broken into. That has a mental affect on the person. One person I know of had to move house.

victim always suffer, big difference between moving house and an abortion, if abortion was so good why do women need counselling afterwards ? - GUILT

mbiking123 · 03-10-2013 12:19pm

old hippy wrote: »

Does spaying apply to fornincating menfolk as well? We like sextoo but it would be a disaster if pregnancy occured.

If men are that afraid of pregnancy then get a Vasectomy. very routine operation and nobody gets killed

mbiking123 · 03-10-2013 12:20pm

gaynorvader wrote: »

I don't think anyone's advocating 30+ week abortions. I think the latest is around 22-24 weeks.

Didn't hear that, in fact one person said (pro abortion) that child is not alive until born and breathing etc

mbiking123 · 03-10-2013 12:21pm

kylith wrote: »

Maybe mbiking123 feels that a return to the biblical law of a woman being forced to marry her rapist is needed. That way the rapist will never have to worry about getting access to their offspring.

religion religion religion

Delirium · 03-10-2013 12:23pm

mbiking123 wrote: »

back to religion stuff here again

In crime the victim suffers and will always suffer - as an example a person house being broken into. That has a mental affect on the person. One person I know of had to move house.

victim always suffer, big difference between moving house and an abortion, if abortion was so good why do women need counselling afterwards ? - GUILT

Not all women need counselling post-abortion. And a lot less would need it if they weren't called sluts/murderers by pro-life folk.

iwantmydinner · 03-10-2013 12:23pm

mbiking123 wrote: »

back to religion stuff here again

In crime the victim suffers and will always suffer - as an example a person house being broken into. That has a mental affect on the person. One person I know of had to move house.

victim always suffer, big difference between moving house and an abortion, if abortion was so good why do women need counselling afterwards ? - GUILT

Where's the religious reference in that point?

Also, what's your point here?

iwantmydinner · 03-10-2013 12:24pm

mbiking123 wrote: »

If men are that afraid of pregnancy then get a Vasectomy. very routine operation and nobody gets killed

It becomes problematic when man wants to father a baby later in life, though.

old hippy · 03-10-2013 12:24pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

It is beyond doubt that abortion is evil and wrong in all but certain very limited circumstances.

Like - how would you react if (heavens forbid) one of your family was attacked and got pregnant? Would you extend the trauma and make them go through with it, knowing the anguish it would cause? If they refused, would you restrain them?

Sorry, if you have given an answer to this but I cannot see it anywhere?

Or are you refusing to reply to me because I'm a "murderer"?

old hippy · 03-10-2013 12:26pm

mbiking123 wrote: »

religion religion religion

misogyny misogyny misogyny

gaynorvader · 03-10-2013 12:27pm

mbiking123 wrote: »

Why do pre-choice/pro abortion keep going back to religion, nothing to do with religion

I agree it has nothing to do with religion. The reason it keeps getting brought up is that the views you are expressing are very similar to the views espoused by many religions.

mbiking123 wrote: »

Didn't hear that, in fact one person said (pro abortion) that child is not alive until born and breathing etc

It's back about 100 pages at this stage. That's not what was said. That person said that it's not a child until born and breathing, etc. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have rights before that, just that its rights are tied up with its mother's rights. For instance, if the foetus would endanger the mother's life at 35 weeks, she should have the right to abort, much the same if a 3 year old was trying to stab someone, they should have the right to defend themselves. It's just easier to not kill a 3 year old with a knife than a foetus with a parasitic attachment to your body.

gaynorvader · 03-10-2013 12:28pm

mbiking123 wrote: »

religion religion religion

old hippy wrote: »

misogyny misogyny misogyny

Jaysus lads, grow up! :P

Neither adds anything to this discussion.

old hippy · 03-10-2013 12:31pm

gaynorvader wrote: »

Jaysus lads, grow up! :P

Neither adds anything to this discussion.

Just replacing the dreaded "r" word for what it should be.

kylith · 03-10-2013 12:33pm

mbiking123 wrote: »

back to religion stuff here again

In crime the victim suffers and will always suffer - as an example a person house being broken into. That has a mental affect on the person. One person I know of had to move house.

Is it that you have no idea of how traumatic rape and sexual assault is that you are insisting that the victim's trauma be extended over at least 9 months, and possibly the rest of her life? Hasn't a woman who has been raped suffered enough? Why force her to carry a reminder of that gross violation for nine months?

I was (minorly) sexually assaulted when I was a young teenager. To this day it will occasionally flash into my head and cause anger, sorrow, and frustration. If I had had to carry to term a pregnancy and go through labour I would probably have killed myself.

victim always suffer,

So they should have to continue to suffer for at least 9 months? Why? Because they're used to it?

big difference between moving house and an abortion, if abortion was so good why do women need counselling afterwards ? - GUILT

Or, y'know, having been raped, for example. Or dealing with traumatic news, such as an unexpected pregnancy. You do know that women with unexpected pregnancies that decide not to have an abortion often get counselling too, right?

Cabaal · 03-10-2013 12:41pm

mbiking123 wrote: »

back to religion stuff here again

In crime the victim suffers and will always suffer - as an example a person house being broken into. That has a mental affect on the person. One person I know of had to move house.

victim always suffer, big difference between moving house and an abortion, if abortion was so good why do women need counselling afterwards ? - GUILT

There's a difference between short and long term suffering,

Advocating women having to give birth to rapists offspring and then ensuring the rapists have legal access rights to them is intentionally prolonging suffering.

By doing so you are no better then the rapist as you continue to violate the women's body and her rights, the women has zero chance of ever returning to a normal life.

Atleast by allowing an abortion the women can for the most part return to a normal life, she can't do this on any level if you force her to give birth to the rapists off spring and then enable a situation where the rapist can have visitation rights to the kid,.

You clearly have no idea about how violated a women can feel from being raped,

oldrnwisr · 03-10-2013 12:45pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Dr Hannibal Hamlin (real name!) would disagree with you. In 1964 he identified brain waves in a 40 day old unborn child.

Umm, no he didn't.

The article you are referring to is this one:

Life or death by EEG

This is not a piece of original research, it is a letter advocating the use of the EEG as a means of determining legal death (at the time legal death was determined only using heartbeat and breathing).

The claim as propounded by pro-life websites is found here:

"The electrophysiologic rhythm of the brain develops early. Detailed EEG tracings have been taken directly from the headend of 16 mm (crown-rump) human embryos at 40-odd days gestation, recovered from termination of pregnancies (Japan) 6 which revealed irregular slow waves, 0.2-2.0 per second at 10-90 mv with superimposed fine waves of 30-40 per second at 1-5mv."

It should be obvious from this passage that this is not original research. Firstly, because it uses rather loose terminology (40-odd) and secondly because it cites other research as its support.

Interestingly, the study Hamlin cites doesn't say what he says it says. This is the study in question:

ELECTROENCEPHAIOGRAPHIC STUDIES ON RBAIN OF FOETUS, OF CHILDREN OF PREMATURE BIRTH AND NEW-BORN, TOGETHER WITH A NOTE ON REACTIONS OF FOETUS BRAIN UPON DRUGS

It is a study of surface and depth electrode EEG traces of foetuses recovered from hysterectomy abortions. It states that EEG patterns were detected in the foetuses aborted at 90 days gestation and not 40 as claimed by Hamlin.

Hamlin further cites the above study and gives the lie to his argument even further:

"Recordings from embryos of 45 to 120 days gestation through surface and depth electrodes have shown reponses to sedative and stimulant drugs, normal sleep spindles, and the effect of lack of oxygen by paroxysmal high voltage slow waves and ultimate electrical silence."

Nothing in the published literature has shown cerebral cortex activity even as early as 120 days gestation. Furthermore, the earliest that normal sleep spindles have been detected is approximately 32 weeks gestation. All of this has been known in the research for quite a while and forms the foundation of textbooks in the area:

Niedermeyer's Electroencephalography: Basic Principles, Clinical Applications, and Related Fields

Now, as for the original research that has actually been done. Only two groups of researchers have attempted to gather EEG traces of foetuses, Okomato and Kirikae (authors of the study used by Hamlin above) in the 1940s and two Finnish researchers Bergstrom and Bergstrom in the 1960s. Bergstrom and Bergstrom found that at 17 weeks of pregnancy there were:

"primitive wave patterns of irregular frequency or intermittent complexes from the oral portion of the brain stem and from the hippocampus"

Bergstrom's work no longer exists online on its own but is retained through quotes and citations in modern encephalography textbooks.

The problem is this, however. The presence of basic electrical activity in the brain does not constitute a brainwave. It merely indicates the presence live nerve cells in the brain. To have a meaningful brain wave in the sense we understand it from medicine, there must be at least some organized higher activity in the brain.

Now, you have earlier in this thread stated that you believe that:

Jack Kyle wrote: »

That is a tough question.

What percentage of each of the above are viable human beings.

I would think sometime in the embryo or foetus stages.

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Was it abortion as a lifestyle choice? If so, she is a murderer.

It is up to me to defend the human life inside that woman, because clearly you and her haven't the moral compass to do so.

Regarding when an unborn baby becomes equal to a "born" baby, that it a tricky question. A foetus is definitely equal. An embryo - I'm not sure. Somewhere between the two I'd say.

So, I gather from that that you believe there is some step-change which occurs with the beginning of the foetal stage (10 weeks LMP) that confers extra rights on the foetus or adds some characteristic to the foetus not present in the embryo. Can you clarify why this is so?

Sarky · 03-10-2013 12:46pm

mbiking123 wrote: »

if abortion was so good why do women need counselling afterwards ? - GUILT

Nodin · 03-10-2013 1:00pm

mbiking123 wrote: »

victim always suffer, big difference between moving house and an abortion, if abortion was so good why do women need counselling afterwards ? - GUILT

Why do women need counselling others? Why don't you read through the "pro-life" posts on this thread and its predecessor......

old hippy · 03-10-2013 1:06pm

old hippy wrote: »

Like - how would you react if (heavens forbid) one of your family was attacked and got pregnant? Would you extend the trauma and make them go through with it, knowing the anguish it would cause? If they refused, would you restrain them?

Sorry, if you have given an answer to this but I cannot see it anywhere?

Or are you refusing to reply to me because I'm a "murderer"?

Still waiting, Jack.

MrPudding · 03-10-2013 1:12pm

Jack, out of curiosity, what is your position on female genital mutilation? You strike me as a possible supporter.

MrP

Jack Kyle · 03-10-2013 1:16pm

MrPudding wrote: »

Jack, out of curiosity, what is your position on female genital mutilation? You strike me as a possible supporter.

MrP

That's a ludicrous question. It's an outrageous practice.

Jack Kyle · 03-10-2013 1:18pm

old hippy wrote: »

Still waiting, Jack.

I would not view abortion as an option because the unborn child is an innocent party. As is the rape victim.

I would however advocate the castration of rapists if that's of interest to you.

Cabaal · 03-10-2013 1:19pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

That's a ludicrous question. It's an outrageous practice.

People do it, many for religious reasons.

Kind of the same as people used to think rape victims should have to marry their rapists, for religious reason. The bible made it so.

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Since your in the answering mode Jack, care to answer

1. Would you be happy to deny your wife/sister/cousin an abortion if she was raped and beaten and became pregnant and wants to have an abortion? Will you be such a big person as to tell her she must give birth to the rapists offspring?

2 Are you happy with the fetus being created out of a rape?

3 Do you think the women should cherish the rapists offspring being inside her body?

4 Do you think the rapist should have legal rights to see his offspring if it is born? If no, then why would you deny the rights of another human being and the child?

Abortion Discussion

Comments