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Abortion Discussion
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mbiking123 wrote: »Originally Posted by oldrnwisr
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his might enlighten you further:
The Case of the Female Orgasm
No one is enlightened. Please just explain yourself clearly.0 -
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mbiking123 wrote: »http://afterabortion.org/1999/abortion-risks-a-list-of-major-physical-complications-related-to-abortion/
According to the best record based study of deaths following pregnancy and abortion, a 1997 government funded study in Finland, women who abort are approximately four times more likely to die in the following year than women who carry their pregnancies to term. In addition, women who carry to term are only half as likely to die as women who were not pregnant.16 (Click here for more details on this important study.)
Comparison of deaths from natural causes (excluding suicide, accidents, and violence) by pregnancy outcome compared to women not pregnant in the year prior to their death.
Women who had abortions were 3.4 times more likely to commit suicide compared to women who had not been pregnant in the previous year and 6 times more likely to commit suicide than women who delivered.
The Finland researchers found that compared to women who carried to term, women who aborted in the year prior to their deaths were 60 percent more likely to die of natural causes, seven times more likely to die of suicide, four times more likely to die of injuries related to accidents, and 14 times more likely to die from homicide.
Two studies of the entire population of women in Denmark published in 2012 have shown similar results. The first found that the risk of death following abortion remains higher in each of the first ten years following the abortion. The second found that the risk of death increases with each abortion, 45% after one abortion, 114% after two abortions, and 192 percent after three or more abortions.
Those studies are actually mostly from 1987-1996. And the APA did a study on these studies in both 1990 and 2008 and found that the risk of suicide for first trimester abortions was normal and the stats were skewed by late term abortions where foetuses had development problems. Source.
Johns Hopkins had a similar conclusion: source.
And here's a nice pdf to download from the Royal College of Psychiatrists basically saying most of the studies they looked at were rubbish.0 -
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mbiking123 wrote: »http://afterabortion.org/1999/abortion-risks-a-list-of-major-physical-complications-related-to-abortion/
According to the best record based study of deaths following pregnancy and abortion, a 1997 government funded study in Finland, women who abort are approximately four times more likely to die in the following year than women who carry their pregnancies to term. In addition, women who carry to term are only half as likely to die as women who were not pregnant.16 (Click here for more details on this important study.)Comparison of deaths from natural causes (excluding suicide, accidents, and violence) by pregnancy outcome compared to women not pregnant in the year prior to their death.Women who had abortions were 3.4 times more likely to commit suicide compared to women who had not been pregnant in the previous year and 6 times more likely to commit suicide than women who delivered.
The Finland researchers found that compared to women who carried to term, women who aborted in the year prior to their deaths were 60 percent more likely to die of natural causes, seven times more likely to die of suicide, four times more likely to die of injuries related to accidents, and 14 times more likely to die from homicide.
Two studies of the entire population of women in Denmark published in 2012 have shown similar results. The first found that the risk of death following abortion remains higher in each of the first ten years following the abortion. The second found that the risk of death increases with each abortion, 45% after one abortion, 114% after two abortions, and 192 percent after three or more abortions.
It would really be helpful if those, like yourself, who oppose abortion took the time to actually read these studies instead of copying what some anti-abortion website has to say about them.
OK, firstly let's look at the studies you cite regarding maternal death.
The principal problem in the Finnish study and both of the Danish studies is that spontaneous abortions and miscarriages are separated from live births in all cases. This means that you're not actually comparing induced abortion vs. full-term pregnancy, you're comparing induced abortion vs. successful full-term pregnancy. Obviously, birth is going to look better if your study design is biased in this way.
Secondly, what these studies are actually looking at are the long-term health outcomes for women following pregnancy and abortion. However, the authors of one of the Danish studies point to the limitations of such an analysis:
"Another limitation is that our analysis does not control for
socioeconomic factors, marital status, psychological history,
or other factors prior to first pregnancy which may affect
the subsequent risk of death."
Obviously deaths unrelated to pregnancy are going to skew the results. The authors also note that the subsequent reproductive history of the women are significant mitigating factors in death risk, particularly subequent healthy pregnancies following abortion.
Short and long term mortality rates associated with first pregnancy outcome: Population register based study for Denmark 1980–2004
When we look at fair comparisons (i.e. those which do not segregate natural pregnancy loss from live birth) we see a completely different picture.
The Comparative Safety of Legal Induced Abortion and Childbirth in the United States
From this study in the US, we can see that the risk of death from pregnancy is 14 times higher than that of induced abortion (8.8 per 100,000) vs. 0.6 per 100,000).
A similar study from the UK shows the same relationship.
Induced abortion and maternal death
The Eight Report of the Confidential Enquiries into Maternal Deaths (CEMD) 2012, shows that in the period 2006-2008 in the UK there were 2,291,493 pregnancies in the UK. In this period there were 107 deaths directly attributable to pregnancy and a further 154 indirectly attributable compared to 2 deaths from abortion. This yields death ratios of 11.38 per 100,000 for childbirth vs. 0.52 per 100,000 for abortion.
Finally, the largest collection of data on maternal mortality is collected and analysed by the WHO. They have already analysed the causal factors of maternal death and guess what, legal abortion isn't one of them.
WHO - Maternal mortality
You should try to understand what a study is actually about rather than mouthing off about it so smugly.mbiking123 wrote: »Enjoy the D&D game
Am sure it will go better than this one - for you that is
Women with a history of one abortion face a 2.3 times higher risk of having cervical cancer, compared to women with no history of abortion. Women with two or more abortions face a 4.92 relative risk. Similar elevated risks of subsequent ovarian and liver cancer have also been linked to single and multiple abortions. These increased cancer rates for post-aborted women may be linked to the unnatural disruption of the hormonal changes which accompany pregnancy and untreated cervical damage or to increased stress and the negative impact of stress on the immune system.4
Women who had one, two, or more previous induced abortions are, respectively, 1.89, 2.66, or 2.03 times more likely to have a subsequent pre-term delivery, compared to women who carry to term. Prior induced abortion not only increased the risk of premature delivery, it also increased the risk of delayed delivery. Women who had one, two, or more induced abortions are, respectively, 1.89, 2.61, and 2.23 times more likely to have a post-term delivery (over 42 weeks).17 Pre-term delivery increases the risk of neonatal death and handicaps.
HANDICAPPED NEWBORNS IN LATER PREGNANCIES:
Abortion is associated with cervical and uterine damage which may increase the risk of premature delivery, complications of labor and abnormal development of the placenta in later pregnancies. These reproductive complications are the leading causes of handicaps among newborns.9
INCREASED RISKS FOR WOMEN SEEKING MULTIPLE ABORTIONS:
In general, most of the studies cited above reflect risk factors for women who undergo a single abortion. These same studies show that women who have multiple abortions face a much greater risk of experiencing these complications. This point is especially noteworthy since approximately 45% of all abortions are for repeat aborters.
somepeople never heard of a condom !
Whatever about the abuse of science committed above, it is nothing compared to the heinous atrocity I've just quoted above.
1. Cervical cancer
Several anti-abortion websites make the claim that abortion causes an increased risk of cervical cancer using the figure 2.3. However, very few of them provide any references to back up this claim. One that does:
Major Physical Affects Related to Abortion
cites the following studies as evidence for the claim:
"M-G, Le, et al., "Oral Contraceptive Use and Breast or Cervical Cancer: Preliminary Results of a French Case- Control Study, Hormones and Sexual Factors in Human Cancer Etiology, ed. JP Wolff, et al., Excerpta Medica: New York (1984) pp.139-147; F. Parazzini, et al., "Reproductive Factors and the Risk of Invasive and Intraepithelial Cervical Neoplasia," British Journal of Cancer, 59:805-809 (1989); H.L. Stewart, et al., "Epidemiology of Cancers of the Uterine Cervix and Corpus, Breast and Ovary in Israel and New York City," Journal of the National Cancer Institute 37(1):1-96; I. Fujimoto, et al., "Epidemiologic Study of Carcinoma in Situ of the Cervix," Journal of Reproductive Medicine 30(7):535 (July 1985); N. Weiss, "Events of Reproductive Life and the Incidence of Epithelial Ovarian Cancer," Am. J. of Epidemiology, 117(2):128-139 (1983); V. Beral, et al., "Does Pregnancy Protect Against Ovarian Cancer," The Lancet, May 20, 1978, pp. 1083-1087; C. LaVecchia, et al., "Reproductive Factors and the Risk of Hepatocellular Carcinoma in Women," International Journal of Cancer, 52:351, 1992."
From this mass of tangled references, only one has any actual relevance to the question (which I have highlighted above). This study, of course, doesn't say what the pro-life websites claim it does.
Reproductive factors and the risk of invasive and intraepithelial cervical neoplasia
The author notes:
"Likewise, cases of invasive cervical cancer tended more frequently to report induced abortions. However, this association was not statistically significant after allowance for confounding factors, including parity."
and further:
"No consistent association emerged between the risk of intraepithelial cervical neoplasm and parity, number of abortions and age at first or last birth."
When we look at the other studies in this field we find that abortion is rarely mentioned as a risk factor and never significantly and that sexual behaviour and patient attitudes are better predictors of cancer risk. (In fact some cancer types have been shown to be inversely correlated with abortion)
Sexual and Reproductive Risk Factors for Invasive Squamous Cell Cervical Cancer
The epidemiology of cervical carcinogenesis
Long-term impact of reproductive factors on cancer risk
Ultimately there is no support for the hypothesis of increased cervical cancer risk when all the literature is surveyed.
2. Cervical and uterine damage
The bedrock assumption of most of your claims in the second post rest on the damage to a woman's reproductive system.
The thing is though that of the 189,574 abortions performed in the UK in 2010, for example, 43% were medical abortions and thus no cervical damage is possible. Secondly, a further 52% of abortions are performed using vacuum aspiration which is not associated with cervical damage in the literature. That just leaves D&E which accounts for just 5% of all abortions. While D&E can result in cervical damage it should be noted that a) cervical damage is rare in the literature for this technique and b) this technique is useful only in later term abortions where vacuum aspiration may prove hazardous. So what you are arguing here is an appeal to hasty generalisation.
UK Abortion Statistics 2010
Dilation and Extraction for Late Second Trimester Abortion
I was going to deal with your mental health argument as well but it's getting late and GTA has been on pause for longer than I'd like so instead I would direct you to gaynorvader's excellent response here.0 -
mbiking123 wrote: »Originally Posted by oldrnwisr
..................
..................
..................
his might enlighten you further:
The Case of the Female Orgasm
Seriously though, are you going to explain this soon?0 -
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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_VCjOzMn55NM/TUZR_EHYWaI/AAAAAAAABvU/jqk2HKETdrE/s320/headondesk.jpg
/begin batch deletion.
Arghh gotta do this manually.
need a bit of scripting help ?0 -
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mbiking123 wrote: »very sadiwantmydinner wrote: »Sad as in....?
mbiking123 wrote: »orgasm partWhy is it sad?
Is it sad because of our hidden fertile periods meaning that human sex became as much for pleasure as reproduction?
Is it sad that women experience orgasms, thus meaning that we like sex and want to have sex even when we don't want babies?
What's so very sad? Please explain!
On the button kylith!
Them blasted women having orgasms all over the place!! And they don't even need a penis for that!! What's to be done!?
Barefoot and pregnant, I say!
Chained to the kitchen sink, I say!
Revoke the vote, I say!
Burqas (sp??) all round, I say!
A good beating will show them who's boss, I say!
:rolleyes:
Jaysus... it's scary that a female orgasm could be sad in any way whatsoever... 0 -
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secondrowgal wrote: »{...}
Jaysus... it's scary that a female orgasm could be sad in any way whatsoever...
It's sad that I only get one! 0 -
From this we can see that there is a reduction in internet explorers market share and a reduction in murders. But we can see elsewhere that there is a rise in abortions. From this we can see that if we force everyone to use internet explorer there will be no abortions, but there will be a rise in murders.0 -
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secondrowgal wrote: »On the button kylith!
Them blasted women having orgasms all over the place!! And they don't even need a penis for that!! What's to be done!?
Barefoot and pregnant, I say!
Chained to the kitchen sink, I say!
Revoke the vote, I say!
Burqas (sp??) all round, I say!
A good beating will show them who's boss, I say!
:rolleyes:
Jaysus... it's scary that a female orgasm could be sad in any way whatsoever...
I know, it's shocking! I keep doing my best to just lie back and think of all the little soldiers of God I should be making, but I just keep having fecking orgasms. :rolleyes:
The only person who could find the female orgasm sad is a person who has experienced neither given nor received one.0 -
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