Abortion Discussion

robindch

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

It seems he is throwing a tantrum because the Catholic Church is not being placed above the law, where he appears to believe it should be.

No doubt Mr Doran sincerely believes that the church doesn't need to obey the laws it finds inconvenient, since most of his life is devoted to the idea that his organization and ideology reigns supreme.

That said, in a strange way, I feel slightly sorry for these guys. They bought into a convenient, useful and lazy fiction and now -- perhaps like Mr Brady -- when their trousers lie around their ankles, they find the old threats and incantations no longer work. The moment when they realize that must be disheartening in the extreme.

kylith

This sums up the abortion debate regarding minors, I think: "It’s impossible to fathom how a court could determine a minor is not mature enough to decide to terminate a pregnancy but is mature enough to become a parent."

Morag

Sarah from Northern Ireland who has been told the baby she is carrying has a fetal fatal abnormality
and she can not have an abortion in the North of Ireland and would have to travel.
It is upsetting to listen to, she is 20 weeks pregnant, they will scan her to wait until there is not heart beat and then they will induce labor or she can go full term and then the baby will die when born.
Her only other option is to pay for the abortion which would be 1,300 pounds sterling and then travel costs on top of that.

She also speaks about the abuse from protestors outside a clinic when she went to get information.

https://audioboo.fm/boos/1649759-a-devastated-expectant-mother-and-her-abortion-law-plea

robindch

The final report into Savita's death has been published:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/medical-staff-failed-to-act-as-savita-s-condition-worsened-1.1555063

Irish Times wrote:

A new report into the death of Savita Halappanavar has found there was a failure to provide her with the most basic element of patient care and a failure to recognise and act upon signs of her clinical diagnosis in University Hospital Galway last year. The report by the Health Information and Quality Authority points to a number of “missed opportunities” which, had they been identified and acted upon, could have saved her life.

Nationally, it warns that maternity services may, on occasion, not be as safe as they should be, or of sufficient quality. The report says this must be addressed as a matter of urgency and it calls on the HSE and the Department of Health to immediately undertake a review of maternity services. It says the consultant obstetrician, non-consultant hospital doctors and midwives/nurses caring for Ms Halappanavar did not appear to act in a timely way in response to her clinical deterioration and identifies a failure to act or escalate concerns to “an appropriately qualified clinician”. Ms Halappanavar, who was 17 weeks pregnant, died in the hospital of sepsis last October 28th following a miscarriage.

The Hiqa report says the recommended four-hourly observations of her temperature, heart rate and blood pressure did not appear to have been carried out at the required intervals. It also pointed to a failure to follow up on blood tests for Ms Halappanavar. “The consultant, NCHDs and midwifery/nursing staff were responsible and accountable for ensuring that Savita Halappanavar received the right care at the right time,” according to the report. “However, this did not happen.”

It says the most senior clinical decision maker involved in the provision of care to Ms Halappanavar at any given time should have been suitable clinically experienced and competent to interpret clinical findings and act accordingly. Ultimate clinical accountability rested with the consultant obstetrician who was leading Savita Halappanavar’s care.” In addition, the clinical governance arrangements within the hospital failed to recognise that vital hospital policies were not in use, nor were arrangements in place to ensure the provision of basic patient care on St Monica’s Ward, where Ms Halappanavar was accommodated.

The report points out that UHG had developed a local Modified Obstetric Early Warning Score (MOEWS) chart in 2009 but this was not in use on the ward three years later, in October 2012. It says there was no formal clinical escalation protocol and no emergency response team in place at the hospital and while sepsis guidelines were in place, clinical governance arrangements were “not robust enough” to ensure they were adhered to.

The report says it is critically important that the health service learns from mistakes, including this tragic event. However, it points out there is a “disturbing resemblance” between the case of Ms Halappanavar and that of Tania McCabe and her son Zach, who died in 2007. There are 34 recommendations in the report, starting with a call for their full implementation. In addition, it says the HSE and the Department of Health must as a priority review maternity services nationally. The 250-page report from the Health Information and Quality Authority is the third report into the death of Ms Halappanavar in University Hospital Galway last year, and follows a coroner’s inquest and an inquiry by the HSE.

The long-awaited report was presented to the Hiqa board on Monday evening and a copy was furnished to Minister for Health James Reilly yesterday. Ms Halappanavar’s husband Praveen, who did not cooperate with the inquiry, is also being furnished with a copy of the report through his solicitor. The terms of reference of the Hiqa report were “’to investigate the safety, quality and standards of services provided by the HSE to patients, including pregnant women, at risk of clinical deterioration, including those provided in University Hospital Galway (UHG) and as reflected in, among other things, the care and treatment provided to Savita Halappanavar”.

Morag

It is horrifying to read in the report that only 5 out of the 19 HIQA reccomendations which were made after the death of Mrs McCabe were put in place.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0413/299837-mccabet/

In her case they also missed that she was in septic shock, she died 6 years ago.
The 8th amendment really is toxic to maternity care in this country.

Nodin

"Senior health officials are considering the case of a woman who went from Northern Ireland to England for an abortion because her baby had no chance of survival.

The woman had contacted the BBC's Nolan Show to highlight her experience.

Foetal abnormality is not a ground for abortion under Northern Ireland law.

"My only choice basically was to carry the baby either until it passed away inside me or I could deliver and it would pass away," she said. "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24458241

I was under the impression they did allow abortion under those circumstances and that people had travelled up their for same......

Morag

The HIQA report lists the recommendations from the HSE which call for a change in policies and a change in law to allow them to happen.
The sooner the 8th amendment is repealed or amended the better.

swampgas

robindch wrote: »

No doubt Mr Doran sincerely believes that the church doesn't need to obey the laws it finds inconvenient, since most of his life is devoted to the idea that his organization and ideology reigns supreme.

That said, in a strange way, I feel slightly sorry for these guys. They bought into a convenient, useful and lazy fiction and now -- perhaps like Mr Brady -- when their trousers lie around their ankles, they find the old threats and incantations no longer work. The moment when they realize that must be disheartening in the extreme.

Until quite recently pressure would have been put on the board to support the churches position, and they would have caved pretty quickly. I suspect Fr Doran went to the board recently (either individually or collectively) to canvas for support for his position and realised pretty quickly that he wasn't going to get it, and he resigned as a result. That marks a significant decline in the influence of the RCC in the running of that hospital: the rest of the board publicly rejected his authority to dictate medical ethics, something that would have been unthinkable not so many years ago.

One can only hope it is a sign of things to come.

The Black Oil

No doubt the usual suspects will continue to spin the 'best maternal health care in the world' fiction.

lazygal

The fact we have a low rate of women dying during, pre or post natally doesn't mean diddly squat when you're on an eight bed ward and have no access to breastfeeding support, or on an antenatal ward that should hold 12 but has four extra beds squeezed in so no one has any privacy, or that you're on the clock from the time active labour is established and its hit and miss whether you get a supportive midwife/doctor to help you through it.


I also read this on another forum and though it was very true about 'prolifers' and their 'but what about adoption' whining, like no one knows adoption is an option:
Prolifes suggest adoption as if giving up your baby is just like donating old clothes. Adoption is emotionally devastating to the biological mother and that devastation lasts a lifetime. Study after study has shown that while having an abortion is emotionally neutral to the vast majority of women (the exceptions are women who have preexisting mental illnesses and women who were coerced to have an abortion), giving a child up for adoption has serious, negative, long term effects on emotional health in the vast majority of women.

Prolifers are so flippant about this, they lie about the very real dangers, because they want a breeder class. They want young, poor white women to provide white babies for rich white women. As it stands now, you just can't get a white baby in the US. You can get older white children, but nobody wants that, they want a baby. Babies from out of country are plentiful, but they're not Americans.

Prolifers desperately want a breeder class and they are doing everything to achieve it: making abortions increasingly difficult to get, making BC increasingly difficult to get, removing supports one by one for poor women and their children. If they continue to succeed, what choice will poor women have but to be the unwilling breeder class for the rich, the white and the Christian?

aloyisious

Morag wrote: »

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/10/06/in-denying-a-16-year-old-judicial-bypass-nebraska-supreme-court-creates-ban-on-abortions-for-minors-in-state-custody/

and this case could act as precedent.

Well, your honours, she becomes a parent by default of being a rape victim and of your ruling on the lower court's decision. As for the lower court's misreading/hearing of the girl's (at time /date of that court's hearing) FUTURE foster-parents status in the case while she seem's to have actually been in state "in loco parentis" care as she was in state custody, the lower court judge's understanding of the legal situation suck's.

old hippy

lazygal wrote: »

Prolifers desperately want a breeder class and they are doing everything to achieve it: making abortions increasingly difficult to get, making BC increasingly difficult to get, removing supports one by one for poor women and their children. If they continue to succeed, what choice will poor women have but to be the unwilling breeder class for the rich, the white and the Christian?

Horrifying. Sounds like another variant of modern day slavery, in a way.

Bannasidhe

old hippy wrote: »

Horrifying. Sounds like another variant of modern day slavery, in a way.

No sounds like - is.

In the course of my research I read a lot of horrific documents but one that continues to haunt me is a letter I read from a slave owner to a friend after the importation of slaves from Africa was made illegal boasting about how many 'piccaninnies' he and his 3 sons had produced by impregnating slaves and how much he was able to sell these children for at market. At the time of writing the letter the total stood at 37...with 7 more due 'within the month'.

Children as commodities is nothing new for the U.S.

iwantmydinner

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No sounds like - is.

In the course of my research I read a lot of horrific documents but one that continues to haunt me is a letter I read from a slave owner to a friend after the importation of slaves from Africa was made illegal boasting about how many 'piccaninnies' he and his 3 sons had produced by impregnating slaves and how much he was able to sell these children for at market. At the time of writing the letter the total stood at 37...with 7 more due 'within the month'.

Children as commodities is nothing new for the U.S.

Those women...what they must have gone through...I can't even begin to comprehend the horror.

kylith

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No sounds like - is.

In the course of my research I read a lot of horrific documents but one that continues to haunt me is a letter I read from a slave owner to a friend after the importation of slaves from Africa was made illegal boasting about how many 'piccaninnies' he and his 3 sons had produced by impregnating slaves and how much he was able to sell these children for at market. At the time of writing the letter the total stood at 37...with 7 more due 'within the month'.

Children as commodities is nothing new for the U.S.

It's nothing new for most of the world.

Even if they were racists... how could you sell you own children?

Bannasidhe

kylith wrote: »

It's nothing new for most of the world.

Even if they were racists... how could you sell you own children?

By refusing to see them as human beings deserving of rights.

It still happens - race is sadly not the only 'justification' for treating other humans as 'lesser' - gender is also a factor as it socio-economic status and sexual orientation and of course trans people..

I must admit, one phrase guaranteed to induce a blind rage in me is 'those people' when used in certain contexts.

The Black Oil

Breda trying to take Dr. Peter Boylan to task again.

lazygal

The Black Oil wrote: »

Breda trying to take Dr. Peter Boylan to task again.

I quite enjoy her foot stamping over this. Boylan took her apart before and she's not stopped whining since. Leave medical decisions to the doctors, Breda.

Sarky

In other abortion-related news, a member of the Catholic hierarchy labels a democratically elected government as a "Nazi regime" without a trace of irony:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/priest-orders-td-not-to-help-with-communion-29655405.html

Of all religious organisations, the one that helped Hitler to power really should think a bit harder before Godwinning anyone.

PopePalpatine

It's like she's the annoying little squeaky-voiced 12-year-old getting shot halfway across a Call of Duty map and then screaming "HACKER!!!" at Peter. :pac:

Turtwig

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It's like she's the annoying little squeaky-voiced 12-year-old getting shot halfway across a Call of Duty map and then screaming "HACKER!!!" at Peter. :pac:

Nobody here plays COD (we're all too cool for that.:cool:) so would you mind using an analogy people understand?:p

PopePalpatine

OK then, it's like she runs around in GTA V spraying bullets and then Peter Boylan hits her with the butt of his pistol.

Corkfeen

Jernal wrote: »

Nobody here plays COD (we're all too cool for that.:cool:) so would you mind using an analogy people understand?:p

It's like when one leader in Civilization has a puny army that can be irritating. So you retaliate, defeat them. But the townspeople continue to be a massive irritant even after they're annexed because they're unhappy and can't accept the world has moved on without them. That's a cooler explanation,right? I can do it in Age of Empires terms if you want.

Sarky

Peter instagibbed Breda on dm_2 with a clever ricochet skillshot from the 'nade launcher, a tricky move that would have most people nodding in appreciation and typing GG shots pld skillz++, and Breda is all "YUO SHOOT ME....... YOU MUST BE CHETARR SKUM OMFG HAX BAN HIM! I HAET DIS GAME I NEVER WIN!" like a noob who thinks anyone better than them must be cheating.

She of course uses the keyboard exclusively where Boylan uses a mouse+keyboard combo, and she just can't handle the extra dimension opened up by the extra precision this affords more modern players.

PopePalpatine

I think a Gran Turismo reference might fall flat here. :pac:

Turtwig

Ahh the instagib mutator. Those were the days.

Need more analogies folks.

Bannasidhe

Okkkaayyy - GOT reference anyone??? Please?

I don't 'game'. At all. Ever. Unless Scrabble counts...

Corkfeen

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Okkkaayyy - GOT reference anyone??? Please?

I don't 'game'. At all. Ever. Unless Scrabble counts...

You'd love Civilization. I've yet to start Game of Thrones so they'll go right over my head. I was thinking we should do it in terms of ancient gods next. I'm just happy with the fact that I finally got to say 'puny'.

Turtwig

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Okkkaayyy - GOT reference anyone??? Please?

I don't 'game'. At all. Ever. Unless Scrabble counts...

It's like Peter Boylan uses a words like Quixotic and instead of applauding the high points ingenuity of the score Breda thrashes the board off the table and storms out the room in a tantrum accusing Peter of making up words.

Sarky

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Okkkaayyy - GOT reference anyone??? Please?

For those who read the GoT books only:

Breda is like Cersei,

scheming away thinking she's the cleverest person in the world, while in reality she's terrible at it, and soon everyone will realise she's bat**** crazy and heading towards a seriously unpleasant wake-up call.

Boylan is probably Littlefinger: She's dancing to his tune like the good little puppet she is until he cuts her strings. She was useful, but Littlefinger has a kingdom to look after and she's a danger to it now.