Abortion Discussion

lazygal

Its still the case that in Ireland the children of married couples can't be adopted. The law has yet to be changed in light of the children's referendum being passed.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Which leads many to conclude that Stan should mind his own business as Stan will never face a crises pregnancy. :P

Possibly he should, but when we're talking about the rights that should be granted by our civil society then every citizen has a role. Again, that's just a fact of life. Stan might have a change of heart, and feel that he actually wants all those women to feck off and sort out their own affairs. But he has to have a view, as he has no choice but to be a part of some legally constituted state.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No. It is not as different as you wish to paint it. A woman should have to right to decide whether or not she wished to be pregnant in the same way as Stan has the right to deny donating an organ to one of his children even if it would save it's life.

No, that's just a different situation. As we'll have already discussed, the foetus is a foetus - not a child. The child is a fully fledged citizen, like any of us. Presumably, there's (in principle) more potential donors of the organ apart from the parents. In the case of a 26 week foetus, there's no viable way of reaching full term apart from staying in that particular woman's body.

I'm not, you'll appreciate, advocating any particular solution to that conflict of rights. I'm simply pointing out that the conflict is there, and unique to the situation of a pregnant woman.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

lazygal wrote: »

Its still the case that in Ireland the children of married couples can't be adopted. The law has yet to be changed in light of the children's referendum being passed.

In fairness, the measure has no practical relevance. Adoptions by non-family members are as rare as hen's teeth. IIRC, most adoptions in Ireland involve adoption by the natural mother, on her marriage to a person other than the father of her child.

lazygal

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

In fairness, the measure has no practical relevance. Adoptions by non-family members are as rare as hen's teeth. IIRC, most adoptions in Ireland involve adoption by the natural mother, on her marriage to a person other than the father of her child.

The "give the child up for adoption" "solution" can't be availed of by married couples in Ireland though. Which means its utterly meaningless as an option for a married couple faced with an unwanted pregnancy. Adoption is presented by those opposed to abortion as a viable option but its not the case in Ireland as the law stands.

Bannasidhe

lazygal wrote: »

The "give the child up for adoption" "solution" can't be availed of by married couples in Ireland though. Which means its utterly meaningless as an option for a married couple faced with an unwanted pregnancy. Adoption is presented by those opposed to abortion as a viable option but its not the case in Ireland as the law stands.

Plus there is a perception in Ireland that there are no married women who may wish to have an abortion because they do not want to be pregnant.

Lingua Franca

mbiking123 wrote: »

Ok I will answer the question that you have posted, given only the argument you have given

No

There should be no abortion, but not for the reasons you gave

So what do you suggest a woman in those circumstances do? Bankrupt herself?

mbiking123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Given Ireland's sordid history around adoptions.

Goes far beyond adoption, or the Catholic church - Ireland's sordid history

Only now are we coming to terms with the civil war and what happened (as an example)

not an excuse, but there is nothing wrong with the whole adoption concept

mbiking123

Lingua Franca wrote: »

So what do you suggest a woman in those circumstances do? Bankrupt herself?

Sorry Lingua Franca, questions getting fired all round here. Like a western shoot out !

Can you explain the exact circumstances

thanks

Lingua Franca

A woman with an unwanted pregnancy in Kansas. No job, no health insurance, no benefits. Medical treatment and birth assistance will bankrupt her.

You said there were ways around those problems so that she can give birth and give the baby up for adoption.

I'd like to know what you think the ways around those problems are.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

lazygal wrote: »

The "give the child up for adoption" "solution" can't be availed of by married couples in Ireland though. Which means its utterly meaningless as an option for a married couple faced with an unwanted pregnancy. Adoption is presented by those opposed to abortion as a viable option but its not the case in Ireland as the law stands.

Indeed, but these days adoption is a practical irrelevance as a choice in any event. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, there would have been about a thousand adoptions a year, which I suppose suggests it was how unwanted pregnancies were dealt with. At that time, an unplanned pregnancy within marriage would have been regarded just as part of the package.

But now, there's only a few dozen adoptions a year. It's simply not a choice that many take, and I'd suspect they are probably right to avoid it.

I don't think we've a major disagreement on this point. I'd feel any reference to adoption as a 'solution' is a red herring - I'd suspect we might even be close to agreeing on that.

mbiking123

Lingua Franca wrote: »

A woman with an unwanted pregnancy in Kansas. No job, no health insurance, no benefits. Medical treatment and birth assistance will bankrupt her.

You said there were ways around those problems so that she can give birth and give the baby up for adoption.

I'd like to know what you think the ways around those problems are.

example
'Program Description

Kansas Medicaid is a jointly-funded state and Federal government program that pays for medically necessary services. Medicaid pays for medical services for children and their caretakers, pregnant women, and persons who are disabled, blind or 65 years of age or older.
General Program Requirements

In order to qualify for this benefit program, you must be a resident of the state of Kansas, a U.S. national, citizen, permanent resident, or legal alien, in need of health care/insurance assistance, whose financial situation would be characterized as low income or very low income. You must also be either pregnant, a parent or relative caretaker of a dependent child(ren) under age 19, blind, have a disability or a family member in your household with a disability, or be 65 years of age or older'

Bannasidhe

mbiking123 wrote: »

example
'Program Description

Kansas Medicaid is a jointly-funded state and Federal government program that pays for medically necessary services. Medicaid pays for medical services for children and their caretakers, pregnant women, and persons who are disabled, blind or 65 years of age or older.
General Program Requirements

In order to qualify for this benefit program, you must be a resident of the state of Kansas, a U.S. national, citizen, permanent resident, or legal alien, in need of health care/insurance assistance, whose financial situation would be characterized as low income or very low income. You must also be either pregnant, a parent or relative caretaker of a dependent child(ren) under age 19, blind, have a disability or a family member in your household with a disability, or be 65 years of age or older'

Still want to claim being pregnant is an 'inconvenience' ?

mbiking123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Still want to claim being pregnant is an 'inconvenience' ?

its a wonderful thing not an inconvience

rainbow kirby

mbiking123 wrote: »

its a wonderful thing not an inconvience

Projectile vomit for months on end and then come back and say the same thing.

mbiking123

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Projectile vomit for months on end and then come back and say the same thing.

yes and you give life, and you will never be lonely again

Bannasidhe

mbiking123 wrote: »

its a wonderful thing not an inconvience

Have you ever been pregnant?

Normally I would not ask such a personal question but I think it is pertinent to know if you have actually experienced such a wonderful inconvenience?

Bannasidhe

mbiking123 wrote: »

yes and you give life, and you will never be lonely again

What a load of sentimental old tosh.

Tell that to the old people in care whose children never bother to visit.

Tell that to those who children die before them.


'Mummy? Why did you have me?'

'So someone would have to stay with me when I am old darling.'

mbiking123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Have you ever been pregnant?

Normally I would not ask such a personal question but I think it is pertinent to know if you have actually experienced such a wonderful inconvenience?

After what has happened on this forum before I don't want to answer any personal questions

Hope you understand

mbiking123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What a load of sentimental old tosh.

Tell that to the old people in care whose children never bother to visit.

Tell that to those who children die before them.


'Mummy? Why did you have me?'

'So someone would have to stay with me when I am old darling.'

Yes that sometimes happens but be more positive

Mr. CooL ICE

mbiking123 wrote: »

Yes that sometimes happens but be more positive

Be more positive? She isn't trying to be negative, just being realistic.

mbiking123

LordChessington wrote: »

Be more positive? She isn't trying to be negative, just being realistic.

I will end up singing Always Look on the Bright Side of Life (from Monty Python)
'So always look on the bright side of death
Just before you draw your terminal breath'

http://www.thebards.net/music/lyrics/Always_Look_Bright_Side_Life.shtml

Sarky

You can't answer the questions you were asked, so you retreat to a comedy song? Come on, try harder.

mbiking123

Sarky wrote: »

You can't answer the questions you were asked, so you retreat to a comedy song? Come on, try harder.

Actually I was not asked a question, just a comment to the negativity

just be more positive - try harder

PopePalpatine

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'Mummy? Why did you have me?'

'So someone would have to stay with me when I am old darling.'

That sounds eerily like "Overly Attached Girlfriend". :pac:

Bannasidhe

mbiking123 wrote: »

After what has happened on this forum before I don't want to answer any personal questions

Hope you understand

Indeed.

I understand that we have know way of knowing if you have any experience of an actual pregnancy or if you are spouting yet more guff when talking about how wonderful an experience it is.

I also understand that should you state that you have never been pregnant or adopted a child this would show your pronouncements up as hollow and reeking of 'Don't do as I do. Do as I say.'

mbiking123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Indeed.

I understand that we have know way of knowing if you have any experience of an actual pregnancy or if you are spouting yet more guff when talking about how wonderful an experience it is.

I also understand that should you state that you have never been pregnant or adopted a child this would show your pronouncements up as hollow and reeking of 'Don't do as I do. Do as I say.'

keep to the post not the poster please

Bannasidhe

mbiking123 wrote: »

keep to the post not the poster please

I see you also see how your argument is undermined.

mbiking123

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I see you also see how your argument is undermined.

no, your just getting personal with your questions. I don't ask you personal questions and you don't ask me. keep to the rules and everybody is happy

In any case I could lie, so what's the point

Lingua Franca

mbiking123 wrote: »

example
'Program Description

Kansas Medicaid is a jointly-funded state and Federal government program that pays for medically necessary services. Medicaid pays for medical services for children and their caretakers, pregnant women, and persons who are disabled, blind or 65 years of age or older.
General Program Requirements

In order to qualify for this benefit program, you must be a resident of the state of Kansas, a U.S. national, citizen, permanent resident, or legal alien, in need of health care/insurance assistance, whose financial situation would be characterized as low income or very low income. You must also be either pregnant, a parent or relative caretaker of a dependent child(ren) under age 19, blind, have a disability or a family member in your household with a disability, or be 65 years of age or older'

Nice googling! Now google "How long does it take to process my medicaid application?" and tell me what you think the woman is meant to do in the meantime.

And you still haven't answered how a woman is to survive with no benefits, no rent allowance etc, and no chance of employment because she is pregnant.

mbiking123

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Nice googling! Now google "How long does it take to process my medicaid application?" and tell me what you think the woman is meant to do in the meantime.

And you still haven't answered how a woman is to survive with no benefits, no rent allowance etc, and no chance of employment because she is pregnant.

I don't live in Kansas

But am sure if she contacted her local parish priest, something could be done to help her