Hitler and Mussolini were good Christians - Fianna Fail senator

hinault

regress wrote: »

Again you are being selective. Art 13 also says. "It is understood that the Church has the right to levy Church taxes."

The supplementary protocol:rolleyes:

Let's read the supplementary protocol article 13.

It is understood that the Church retains the right to levy Church taxes

The word retains is kinda important because it suggests that the right existed prior to the Concordat.
In other words the German Catholic church already had authority to raise taxes prior to any agreement.

Still no mention of the Vatican either:D

regress wrote: »

Understand why that part is deleted by catholic apologists posting bits on the Internet.

I'm more interested in historical accuracy.

regress

Only bits of the above are half true. But christian youth groups were not under control of Vatican and of course they were replaced by Hitler Youth of which Pope Benedict was.member. Although thats not a criticism or an insinuation.

And I don't see the point of continuing church gate collections once the millions began flooding in from the new church tax.


Heinrich Himmler by the way was.a practicing roman catholic who went to mass on Sunday's.

hinault

regress wrote: »

Only bits of the above are half true.

If only bits of the above are true you're suggesting that historians Richard Evans and Richard Overy are inaccurate?
Are you for real?

regress wrote: »

And I don't see the point of continuing church gate collections once the millions began flooding in from the new church tax.

Citizens throughout Germany pay tithes if they wish to do so.
Tithes apply to any/all denominations.

hinault

regress wrote: »

Heinrich Himmler by the way was.a practicing roman catholic who went to mass on Sunday's.

Incorrect.

"Peter Padfield notes that from late 1923 to early 1924, Himmler's reading included books on spiritualism, second sight, astrology, telepathy and the like. Himmler was interested also in herbalism, rural life and agriculture [Graber] - he was rather a "back-to-nature", "New Age" sort of man. His activities and growing beliefs led him to renounce his once strong faith in the Catholic Church by the summer of 1924"

Himmler was an Occultist
http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/himmler.htm

The Corinthian

regress wrote: »

To this day the Catholuc Church in Germany is the richest in the world. It receives millions every year from German taxpayers. All because of an agreement between the Pope and Hitler 80 years ago.

Actually the Kirchensteuer was first introduced by the Weimar Constitution of 1919. It also covered other religious denominations; notably the Lutheran church which was the largest religious denomination in later Nazi Germany - something that seems to be repeatedly ignored here.

To understand the Kirchensteuer system of taxation, you have to consider that Germanic counties tend to do so at the local, or Gemeinde, level and you'll actually find simelar or identical systems in place also in Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland and Iceland.

Money does not go to the Vatican, but is given to the local churches.

regress

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually the Kirchensteuer was first introduced by the Weimar Constitution of 1919. It also covered other religious denominations; notably the Lutheran church which was the largest religious denomination in later Nazi Germany - something that seems to be repeatedly ignored here.

To understand the Kirchensteuer system of taxation, you have to consider that Germanic counties tend to do so at the local, or Gemeinde, level and you'll actually find simelar or identical systems in place also in Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland and Iceland.

Money does not go to the Vatican, but is given to the local churches.

Irrespective of what google says this is rubbish. The tax wasn't collected till after the 1933 concordat between the future Pius XII and Hitler.

To this day it is referred to colloquially in Germany as the "Hitler tax" last year it brought over €10 billion to the church.

Anyway get the discussion back to core issues.

1 The refusal of the Vatican to criticize or condemn the extermination of millions of Jews by roman Catholics.

In my opinion arguing that the Vatican was afraid to criticize the Holocaust or unaware that Catholics were involved and doing it in the name of Jesus Christ is ridiculous.

The Pope and the church were not innocent bystanders. There participation and approval was crucial.

The Corinthian

regress wrote: »

Irrespective of what google says this is rubbish.

We'll just take your word on it, shall we?

The tax wasn't collected till after the 1933 concordat between the future Pius XII and Hitler.

I don't believe that is true. Do you have any sources for this claim?

Actually, while you're at it, how did this tie in with the Kirchensteuer in Switzerland and Sweden?

To this day it is referred to colloquially in Germany as the "Hitler tax" last year it brought over €10 billion to the church.

And this I can definitely say is utter bullshìt. It is not, colloquially or otherwise, referred to the "Hitler tax" in Germany and that claim is a complete fabrication.

Anyway get the discussion back to core issues.

I would have thought that your repeatedly presenting false facts would be pretty core to the discussion.

alastair

regress wrote: »

And I don't see the point of continuing church gate collections once the millions began flooding in from the new church tax.

It wasn't a new church tax. It was a reaffirmation of the existing church tax - which was legislated for in 1919 - well before Hitler had any say in things. All established religions in Germany had the option of levying their own church taxes - including the German Jewish community - who did just that. The Catholic Church in Germany was't acting in any exceptional fashion in that regard.

You've some remarkably biased and skewed beliefs going on in this thread. Lets blame the church for their own failings - it's not like there's a need to add to the pile with this sort of guff.

Leftist

raymon wrote: »

There are many reasons why I think FF should be disbanded in shame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jId5TXtnL0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This clip shows the typical arrogance, incompetence and ignorance so common amongst their ranks

the idiot just goes off into a waffle