J4/J5 [Social Rugby] Season 2013/14

Guy:Incognito

salmocab wrote: »

Its always happened that players who haven't played during the year come "out for the cup" and also the 20s finished up a bit earlier than other teams so their players were distributed over the other teams too. These player were not bangers or in anyway illegal it happened every year to pretty much every team. This meant that the standard in the cups always went up. If as people are alleging Bective and Nure put out all new 15s this is a ****ty thing to do but possibly a perfectly legal thing to do if their players haven't been playing for higher grades all season.

Clubs that don't have teams all the way up the levels and U20's teams full of players waiting to step in to AIL squads might feel a bit put upon when they are playing their full J5 team as it has been all season while resisting the urge to fill their team with bangers from the only other team in the club , the mighty J 4's:) (if they even do have 2 teams) Being overrun by a group of players that may well be legal but are clearly way above J5 (or whatever other level cup it is) is not doing them or the competition any good.

gaius c

salmocab wrote: »

Its always happened that players who haven't played during the year come "out for the cup" and also the 20s finished up a bit earlier than other teams so their players were distributed over the other teams too. These player were not bangers or in anyway illegal it happened every year to pretty much every team. This meant that the standard in the cups always went up. If as people are alleging Bective and Nure put out all new 15s this is a ****ty thing to do but possibly a perfectly legal thing to do if their players haven't been playing for higher grades all season.

But there's obvious piss pulling, like if a J5 team were to play the previous year's J1 player of the year and beat up some marks 99-0. Even if those players are legal, it shouldn't be happening.

.ak

cloneslad wrote: »

what's this J5 rugby blitz in st marys tomorrow?

Many teams going to it?

Tarf won this.

What was it exactly by the way?

norrie rugger

the lads have one every year. Not sure what clubs play in it, if teams want in I can ask the J5 lads

gaius c

Clontarf
Marys
Stillorgan

Monkstown were meant to be there but didn't make it. Usually Terenure play but they were all cupped out this year.
Comprehensive win for Clontarf and icing on the cake for them with the week they've had. Many years from now, their lads will talk about this DP Smyth blitz win and they'll also remember "oh and we won the AIL & beat the baa baas too".

.ak

What is it though? A load of teams playing each other on one day?

salmocab

shoutman wrote: »

I think you're missing the point here. Just because their players were, as you put it, legal, doesnt mean that they should be playing at that level.
Winning 40-0 in the final is essentially showing what a mockery they have made out of the cup. They are a team well capable of playing at a higher standard.

I clearly said in my post that this was a ****ty thing to do I was just pointing out that it was legal because people were saying things were being investigated and someone suggested that the branch should look at fining clubs in future for doing this so probably no one has broken a rule although its not in the spirit of things. Although you should always expect to play a stronger xv in the cup than the league as one or two players can make a big difference at lower levels. Also people mention guys who played AIL level, the AIL has gone to pot over the last 10 years and playing in it doesn't mean a player was that good just possibly that he turned up regularly. I know a lot of lads from a lot of clubs that have played AIL and wouldn't stand out at j3 level.

shoutman

.ak wrote: »

What is it though? A load of teams playing each other on one day?

Exactly. I think it was twenty minute games or something like that.

cloneslad

.ak wrote: »

What is it though? A load of teams playing each other on one day?

Each team played each other twice. Clontarf won all four of their games.

Mary's beat stillorgan twice.

It was a tournament sponsored by the family of one of the st Mary's players, who was playing yesterday.

We didn't realise there was a trophy until after the final game. Once it appeared the lads celebrated like they won the World Cup.

devolution

It doesn't send out a good message when both the league winners & now cup winners are been looked at presently by the branch!..when for the most part it was a very competitive league, don't recall many thrashings been dished out!.
Certainly with the league I don't know why railway had to completely change their team for the cup when they had beaten Terenure twice in the four weeks previous( or did they just get greedy).
Bective though just took the piss!.. Were they that desperate as a club to get a pot!
Did anyone not learn from last year after what happened to lansdowne!

stephen_n

salmocab wrote: »

I clearly said in my post that this was a ****ty thing to do I was just pointing out that it was legal because people were saying things were being investigated and someone suggested that the branch should look at fining clubs in future for doing this so probably no one has broken a rule although its not in the spirit of things. Although you should always expect to play a stronger xv in the cup than the league as one or two players can make a big difference at lower levels. Also people mention guys who played AIL level, the AIL has gone to pot over the last 10 years and playing in it doesn't mean a player was that good just possibly that he turned up regularly. I know a lot of lads from a lot of clubs that have played AIL and wouldn't stand out at j3 level.

The upper levels of the AIL are stocked with development players from the provinces, it's not exactly that poor a standard and regardless, there is a massive difference between J5 and AIL, however as these guys clearly weren't fit, they didn't have as big an impact as fully fit j1 and j2 players have when they show up in J5 fixtures.

gaius c

.ak wrote: »

What is it though? A load of teams playing each other on one day?

Yes

flyton5

Supposedly the J5 cup has been handed back to the branch by Bective. Medals to follow.

Obviously couldn't live with the win on their conscience.

jamesbondings

flyton5 wrote: »

Supposedly the J5 cup has been handed back to the branch by Bective. Medals to follow.

Obviously couldn't live with the win on their conscience.

Seriously? Was there an investigation into them? Or was it just their conscience?

.ak

Who would the branch award it to then?

jamesbondings

.ak wrote: »

Who would the branch award it to then?

I presume the other finalists.... But anyone who played bective till that point should rock the boat..... Ask for a replay

gaius c

.ak wrote: »

Who would the branch award it to then?

The team that lost two games during the cup?:D

gaius c

jamesbondings wrote: »

I presume the other finalists.... But anyone who played bective till that point should rock the boat..... Ask for a replay

Rightly so. Salmo were denied a place in the final by Bective. They'd be entitled to be pissed off if Gick got the trophy that they never got a chance to compete for.

And what about Tarf who were denied a chance to play in that semi?

Branch need to take a serious look at how the lower cups are run. This is the second time in recent years that the J5 cup has been brought into disrepute this way and I'm going to stay mum on the shenanigans that have taken place in the J6 cup.

flyton5

jamesbondings wrote: »

Seriously? Was there an investigation into them? Or was it just their conscience?

It has to be an investigation. Or they got wind of a planned investigation and decided to just get it over with.

I'm getting sick of this stuff happening at J5 level. And i'm never going to make it at a much higher level so I might just pack it in and take up a sport with less cheating. Cycling maybe. :rolleyes:

devolution

Maybe if the branch come down heavy on the 2 clubs that played illegal players( as with lansdowne j4s this season). The message might get across, also if teams check the basic rules regarding player eligibility in the leagues. & cups then they won't get themselves into the embarresing mess they might find themselves!
Doubt the bective & railway presidents are feeling to happy

stephen_n

The branch shouldn't just leave it at that, if clubs caught doing this had points deducted at all levels next year, it would stop quick enough.

jamesbondings

gaius c wrote: »

Rightly so. Salmo were denied a place in the final by Bective. They'd be entitled to be pissed off if Gick got the trophy that they never got a chance to compete for.

And what about Tarf who were denied a chance to play in that semi?

Branch need to take a serious look at how the lower cups are run. This is the second time in recent years that the J5 cup has been brought into disrepute this way and I'm going to stay mum on the shenanigans that have taken place in the J6 cup.

Excuse the ignorance but salmo? Also what ended up happening in the j6 cup? Railway destroyed turf j6 and I ended up with a torn hip flexor because of it.... Granted those players were legal apparently but obviously not a j6 level.... To me the branch is spineless and these constant rule breaks makes them look like a joke....

LightningBolt

A lot of sour grapes in this thread from the brief read of it that I've had.

Why should ex J1/J2/J3 players from prior years who have played a couple of social games through the season not be allowed for teams at lower levels if they can't get in to J3/J4 sides for cup runs?

People mention safety, how is it safe for someone to take part in a J1/J2 cup match not having played during the year. It is far safer to have them take part in a J3/J4/J5 cup game as opposed to a J1/J2 standard game in my opinion.

norrie rugger

I've said that I did it this year. One player is fine but there are clubs that field entire teams made up of this.

norrie rugger

example a few years ago was seeing a team of under 20s playing in the J6 cup. Against people learning the game they put out an under 20 team FFS that is not safe

The Lost Sheep

jamesbondings wrote: »

Ah here now leave him alone.... One post to rile you up..... To be honest I can't understand why photo id be presented at each game of each player.... Can be done electronically either. Eliminate this ****e sure the j5 league was excellent this year and then like always the cup comes along.... It's dangerous and the branch need to do something about it.... Perhaps big fines to offending clubs....

Agree with you on that. If it can be done at underage level it can be done at adult grade.
Cups no matter what system will always have cases like this. Players who may have not played much and will want a run out will turn out.
Not sure big fines is way to go or points deductions at upper grades

shoutman wrote: »

I think you're missing the point here. Just because their players were, as you put it, legal, doesnt mean that they should be playing at that level.
Winning 40-0 in the final is essentially showing what a mockery they have made out of the cup. They are a team well capable of playing at a higher standard.

That goes into ethics and while it may not be ethical to stack a team if a club doesn't break competition regulations not much can be done.

salmocab wrote: »

I clearly said in my post that this was a ****ty thing to do I was just pointing out that it was legal because people were saying things were being investigated and someone suggested that the branch should look at fining clubs in future for doing this so probably no one has broken a rule although its not in the spirit of things. Although you should always expect to play a stronger xv in the cup than the league as one or two players can make a big difference at lower levels. Also people mention guys who played AIL level, the AIL has gone to pot over the last 10 years and playing in it doesn't mean a player was that good just possibly that he turned up regularly. I know a lot of lads from a lot of clubs that have played AIL and wouldn't stand out at j3 level.

AIL hasn't gone to pot over last 10 years. Very different to what it was but standard hasn't gone to pot.

.ak wrote: »

Who would the branch award it to then?

Whoever lost final will get trophy.

LightningBolt

norrie rugger wrote: »

example a few years ago was seeing a team of under 20s playing in the J6 cup. Against people learning the game they put out an under 20 team FFS that is not safe

A team learning in a J6 cup? Sorry, I'm not buying that. After a season of league rugby I'm assuming that they've gotten up to scratch.

As pointed out, clubs often use the cups to integrate 20s into the mens teams with players going to each team based on ability. There's nothing illegal about it. Agree that a full 20s side comprised of a senior rugby clubs Premier players would be a bit much but a junior side putting in their guys to keep them involved in the club I have no issue with.

norrie rugger

it was a senior club. Even a junior club's 20s entire team should not be in a J6 cup

stephen_n

LightningBolt wrote: »

A team learning in a J6 cup? Sorry, I'm not buying that. After a season of league rugby I'm assuming that they've gotten up to scratch.

As pointed out, clubs often use the cups to integrate 20s into the mens teams with players going to each team based on ability. There's nothing illegal about it. Agree that a full 20s side comprised of a senior rugby clubs Premier players would be a bit much but a junior side putting in their guys to keep them involved in the club I have no issue with.

The J6 cup for your information was specifically for fringe players in the J5 league to get a run out, as there is no J6 league or regular competition at that level, no they shouldn't be up to scratch. So putting out 15 ex J1/J2 players or an entire 20's team is not fair or right. While the branch refuses to sanction clubs or to regulate this properly it will continue to happen and as with this year, teams that are genuinely at this level will not bother to participate in these cups.

norrie rugger

bingo. The squad that i was coaching had enough new players training throughout the year that we had an entire team worth guys that did not get match time. To see them getting embarrassed by a twenties team was disgraceful. We are trying to encourage new people into the sport FFS

.ak

LightningBolt wrote: »

A team learning in a J6 cup? Sorry, I'm not buying that. After a season of league rugby I'm assuming that they've gotten up to scratch.

As pointed out, clubs often use the cups to integrate 20s into the mens teams with players going to each team based on ability. There's nothing illegal about it. Agree that a full 20s side comprised of a senior rugby clubs Premier players would be a bit much but a junior side putting in their guys to keep them involved in the club I have no issue with.

I would say that our J6 cup team was primarily made up of people still learning the game. You could be playing for years and not know the game - a lot of people in our team joined up this season, and due to our squad size got feck all game time during the league season.

molloyjh

norrie rugger wrote: »

bingo. The squad that i was coaching had enough new players training throughout the year that we had an entire team worth guys that did not get match time. To see them getting embarrassed by a twenties team was disgraceful. We are trying to encourage new people into the sport FFS

This. Tarf are looking at a J6 team for next season because a lot of people, myself included, took up the game this season but saw 5 minutes here and 5 minutes there in terms of game time. At best. And most of that out on the wing where the sum total of nothing at all happens. Any J6 side that we put together will be made up of people who have hardly played the game and are looking to get into it. Being faced with that kind of carry on is only going to discourage people from it.

I don't give a fiddlers about the legality or the safety issues. I want to get meaningful game time in a competitive league. I don't want to be also rans in a league others are using to develop their kids. What's the point in that?

gaius c

molloyjh wrote: »

This. Tarf are looking at a J6 team for next season because a lot of people, myself included, took up the game this season but saw 5 minutes here and 5 minutes there in terms of game time. At best. And most of that out on the wing where the sum total of nothing at all happens. Any J6 side that we put together will be made up of people who have hardly played the game and are looking to get into it. Being faced with that kind of carry on is only going to discourage people from it.

I don't give a fiddlers about the legality or the safety issues. I want to get meaningful game time in a competitive league. I don't want to be also rans in a league others are using to develop their kids. What's the point in that?

Any chance your team could be entered into division 11?

I think I know the game you're talking about Norrie Rugger. Is it the Marys-Rock semi here?
IIRC Rock turned up with their u-20's and a few supplementary players such as an ex-Ireland A player and a member of Ulster's Heineken cup winning squad (that guy had the decency to apologise afterwards I was told). Also the ref "forgot" to mark down some of the tries so it was actually a higher margin.

Low level players are as entitled to decent competitive cup competition as higher level players. The fairest way to do it is limit the number of players who didn't play during the league and if that upsets the former J1 out half looking for a bit of springtime rugby at the expense of lads who have trained all year, tough.

@James. Salmo = DLSP

@lightningbolt I see where you're coming from and it seems that other clubs now agree with your reasoning and simply won't enter a team because they know they'll get moshed. Maybe it should be renamed the "former superstars looking for a day away from the missus cup" so that there is no confusion.

molloyjh

gaius c wrote: »

Any chance your team could be entered into division 11?

I guess we'll have to see what the numbers are like in pre-season. I hope so personally as it should mean I actually get to play some rugby. The J5 team just had way too many players. I missed the last couple of months with a knee injury so didn't get to see what the numbers were like for the J6 cup.

cloneslad

LightningBolt wrote: »

A team learning in a J6 cup? Sorry, I'm not buying that. After a season of league rugby I'm assuming that they've gotten up to scratch.

As pointed out, clubs often use the cups to integrate 20s into the mens teams with players going to each team based on ability. There's nothing illegal about it. Agree that a full 20s side comprised of a senior rugby clubs Premier players would be a bit much but a junior side putting in their guys to keep them involved in the club I have no issue with.

As pointed out, our j6 team (clontarf) was made up, mostly, of lads who got barely any game time throughout the season. I was injured in the final game of the league and took no part in the cup but what I witnessed in railway union was akin to torture. Their lads, while not illegal, were far superior in level and ability to our team, if we had been told that a club in the j6 cup was going to have a better team than their side they put out in the j5 league all season, then I think we would have thought differently about entering our players into the tournament. Why should player risk injury for that?

The Bective team that played us the in the J5 cup was totally different to their league team. I can fully understand why they handed back the cup, but it's unfair on every team they beat for it to be handed to terenure....it's also equally unfair on terenure to have been robbed off the chance of lifting the cup after the match was over, not to mention having to suffer such a horrible defeat in the final itself.

norrie rugger wrote: »

it was a senior club. Even a junior club's 20s entire team should not be in a J6 cup

the Mary's team were a real credit to the league this season, they have much higher level teams in the club, and I'm sure they could have rounded up a few of them each weekend, but they stuck with their normal J5 players and improved greatly throughout the league campaign. It helps the league and it gives players more experience going into next season.

stephen_n

cloneslad wrote: »

the Mary's team were a real credit to the league this season, they have much higher level teams in the club, and I'm sure they could have rounded up a few of them each weekend, but they stuck with their normal J5 players and improved greatly throughout the league campaign. It helps the league and it gives players more experience going into next season.

This x100 I would also say the same about Clontarf, you's both stuck to the spirit of the league, when I'm sure the options to play better players were there.

.ak

stephen_n wrote: »

This x100 I would also say the same about Clontarf, you's both stuck to the spirit of the league, when I'm sure the options to play better players were there.

Nope, I was injured during most of the season...




But yeah, in all seriousness, I can only imagine what it would be like if you were a fringe player and then someone says 'Nah we're going to play Billy instead, he needs game time' except he's an u20 player that is on the verge of becoming semi pro. :P

stephen_n

.ak wrote: »

Nope, I was injured during most of the season...




But yeah, in all seriousness, I can only imagine what it would be like if you were a fringe player and then someone says 'Nah we're going to play Billy instead, he needs game time' except he's an u20 player that is on the verge of becoming semi pro. :P

Luckily for me you were injured alright...




















Taking out a Mod might have got me banned and I like it here :P

devolution

Someone should be allowed win the cup, weather it's us. "nure" or salmo who lost the semi to bective, so a proper final between the 2 might be an option, I think unfortunately for tarf it's probably to late in the season to go back that far!..why should all the other teams be punished because 2 clubs decided not to stick to the rules.
Ps, would have to agree regarding Mary's, we had a cracking good semi final against them, great rivalry, great crowd & the lead changing numerous times, it's what a j5 cup game should have been like as opposed to the " it was over in 15 minutes " final we played against bective!

Thud

a solution could be to spread the rounds of the cup throughout the season, would weed out a lot of the fair weather players

cloneslad

devolution wrote: »

Someone should be allowed win the cup, weather it's us. "nure" or salmo who lost the semi to bective, so a proper final between the 2 might be an option, I think unfortunately for tarf it's probably to late in the season to go back that far!..why should all the other teams be punished because 2 clubs decided not to stick to the rules.
Ps, would have to agree regarding Mary's, we had a cracking good semi final against them, great rivalry, great crowd & the lead changing numerous times, it's what a j5 cup game should have been like as opposed to the " it was over in 15 minutes " final we played against bective!

I think terenure will probably be given it, it's not possible to get teams back now, after everyone being off for so long. If the quarter & semi weren't appealed the. There's hardly much that can be done.

Surely some punishment has to be forthcoming....and not just for their j5 team. There has to be a proper deterrent put in place

LeinsterDub

Any know what the story is with Millmount hearing rumours they've folded?

gaius c

So who's back at pre-season already?

.ak

All these lads.

gaius c

Thanky muchly.