Is shyness in a guy a turn off for women?

cantdecide

Pug160 wrote: »

Being mad can actually be very beneficial, but it does of course depend on what type of mad you are. Someone who can be rejected thousands of times and not give a damn, as well as not caring what other people think of their actions - is a little bit mad. But they're mad in a good way, as not having insecurities and an ego means that people have no power over you. And that's an awesome quality to have. That will impress people even if you're not particularly handsome or good looking as it's quite rare.

Knowing your target is good but you should always try to be positive in every situation. It's easier said than done though.

Yup. Sure is a shame I'm not mad.

Even if I had no ego or insecurities, I would still not be mad either. Being mad/ sound often looks a lot like being confident/ cocky. Some of the behaviours are similar. Personally, I don't put too much mass in confidence/ gregariousness/ uninhibited character. Some of the highest quality people I know wouldn't always be the most confident. Confidence and quality aren't always linked, IME. I myself focus on being the best person I can be rather than the most confident. Some people recognise it and some aren't interested. Can't please them all.

Pug160

shopaholic01 wrote: »

The second paragraph was referring to shy guys only, not men in general. Imagine a shy guy and a more outgoing guy chatting up women. Who will appear more relaxed? So a shy guy may appear awkward - if he over analyses the siuation he may become more awkward, not able to respond etc., and that may be interpreted as 'being weird'.

Absolutely. But a shy man is a human being just like anybody else, and if he sees a woman he finds attractive he will feel the same urges as any other man in the same position. What's the point here? That shy men shouldn't go up and talk to women they fancy because they'll be awkward? OK, I know you're not saying that, but it does sound a bit like that.

None of us have any control over who we find attractive - that's a fact. Not a shy man, not an incredibly confident lothario - no one. If, as a shy man, you're akward, wouldn't a better message be ''don't give up''? Some people are always going to be awkward whether women like it or not.

beks101

Pug160 wrote: »

I don't entirely agree with your second paragraph. A lot of men go over to talk to women for the simple reason that they find them attractive and want to sleep with them. The difference between the successful guys and the ones who are not as successful is that the successful men appear to be just having fun and are quite natural and charming. They're not letting fear get the better of them. But their intentions are often identical to the men who appear to be contrived.

When you've met enough of them you become good at spotting those ones

shopaholic01

Pug160 wrote: »

Absolutely. But a shy man is a human being just like anybody else, and if he sees a woman he finds attractive he will feel the same urges as any other man in the same position. What's the point here? That shy men shouldn't go up and talk to women they fancy because they'll be awkward? OK, I know you're not saying that, but it does sound a bit like that.

None of us have any control over who we find attractive - that's a fact. Not a shy man, not an incredibly confident lothario - no one. If, as a shy man, you're akward, wouldn't a better message be ''don't give up''? Some people are always going to be awkward whether women like it or not.

No, I'm not saying that at all. A confident man will have the balls to approach a woman, will believe he has a shot and can easily turn on the charm. He can also shrug off a knock back.

A shy guy can't do the above, and may appear awkward or even weird of he tries. So he needs a different approach - there are plenty of suggestions on this thread: Get comfortable talking to people in day to day situations etc.

My point is that shy guys may need to just talk normally to women instead of overtly flirting. If you read my posts you will see I'm not negative towards shy guys.

The world would be a very loud and annoying place if everyone was loud and outgoing.

beks101

shopaholic01 wrote: »

No, I'm not saying that at all. A confident man will have the balls to approach a woman, will believe he has a shot and can easily turn on the charm. He can also shrug off a knock back.

A shy guy can't do the above, and may appear awkward or even weird of he tries. So he needs a different approach - there are plenty of suggestions on this thread: Get comfortable talking to people in day to day situations etc.

My point is that shy guys may need to just talk normally to women instead of overtly flirting. If you read my posts you will see I'm not negative towards shy guys.

The world would be a very loud and annoying place if everyone was loud and outgoing.

+1.

I wasn't implying if you're shy "don't even bother, it won't happen and you'll freak the woman out".

I was saying approaching with the sole intention of scoring a woman you're attracted to, when by virtue of being shy you're not used to the approach and can't just turn the charm on like a light switch, may require re-evaluation. As a woman, I can tell you how that often comes across and as mentioned it can cause discomfort, a desire to get the hell away from the guy. It's usually not wrapped up in cheeky innuendo, banter, laughter and confidence the way it will be with a more out-going guy.

That's why building up to that kind of approach is a better idea. Getting used to conversing with women in less charged environments where you have nothing to lose.

Legs.Eleven

Something happened to me last night and I thought here was a good a place as any to share it. I think there's a "moral of the story" in here somewhere.

Was at a table quiz last night and my friend brought along the fella that worked/owned his local fruit and veg shop. Venezualan guy. I suppose he could be described as one of those "mad/sound" fellas Candecide has in mind. He seemed charming and entertaining and within about 10 minutes, he was complimenting me on how I looked. I don't even think he was chatting me up, he simply said he found me attractive. Grand. 5 minutes later, he'd complimented my friend...then the other woman at our table (who we didn't know). The fact that I didn't get the vibe that he was trying to chat any of us up had me sitting there trying to figure out his game. I was immediately suspicious. I mentioned that I had a boyfriend and he'd be coming later but he was still as charming and gregarious as he was previously with all of us. He had the whole table (2 guys, 3 women) laughing most of the night.

From reading that, you might think this guy was a bit of a sleaze and believe me, having travelled around South America on my own for almost a year, I can spot the Latin Lothario type a mile off (was hurt by one or two on my travels so would be wary) but this guy simply had a "I will say and be whatever way I am without caring about how others perceive me". That's the air he gave off.

Later on, after he went home, my friend told us he's dying from cancer and had a few months to live. He'd spoken to his brothers who ran the fruit n veg shop with him and they'd told him he was trying to do as much as he could in his last few months. He'd given up on treatment and was concentrating on living life. You meet so many people out and about who give off the air that they'd rather be somewhere else (checking smart phones, not bothering to talk to other people, looking around them for a better option) and I thought to myself about how much time we waste over-analying our interactions and meetings with people and being miserable instead of just getting stuck in there and engaging with others for the sake of it and without caring about the consequences.

I suppose this fella was "mad" because he'd nothing at all to lose. Along the line he'd decided his happiness didn't hang solely on how other perceived him. That's an attractive trait in anyone. I'm not at all like that as I'd very much care what others thought of me (less now in my early 30s than early 20s) but it's an attitude I'd like to acquire as I get older.


I don't know what you can take from that. Not suggesting people should all imitate this fella but at least be aware that life is too short to be so concerned about what others think about you to the point that it hinders your own happiness.

Boofle

heretochat wrote: »

Am brand new to this place so please go easy on me.. The title of this posting is pretty clear but let me elaborate..

Well to put it bluntly I am quite shy when it comes to talking to girls in pubs etc. My friends all have the gift of the gab and are well able to mingle, chat and click with those of the female persuasion..

I meanwhile am the one that stands in the background looking on.. Needless to say I don't have the best of "luck" so to speak...

Not sure what I can do about it and I tihnk women must find it a real turn off or deterrent..

Any views?

In my opinion, shyness is not a turn off for women - if she finds you attractive then a little shyness is actually quite endearing - speaking as a girl fed up of the over-confident, over-bearing guys approaching her when out at night!!

Obviously being so shy that you are introverted is not attractive but a little shyness is definitely an good trait IMO - if you already find the guy attractive that is.

shopaholic01

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I suppose this fella was "mad" because he'd nothing at all to lose. Along the line he'd decided his happiness didn't hang solely on how other perceived him. That's an attractive trait in anyone. I'm not at all like that as I'd very much care what others thought of me (less now in my early 30s than early 20s) but it's an attitude I'd like to acquire as I get older.


I don't know what you can take from that. Not suggesting people should all imitate this fella but at least be aware that life is too short to be so concerned about what others think about you to the point that it hinders your own happiness.

Imagine how much easier life would be if we could all have that attitude, especially as teenagers when peer approval is so important. It's sad to think that it might take a terminal illness to make us realise that we don't need the opinion of others to validate us.

markomuscle

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Something happened to me last night and I thought here was a good a place as any to share it. I think there's a "moral of the story" in here somewhere.

Was at a table quiz last night and my friend brought along the fella that worked/owned his local fruit and veg shop. Venezualan guy. I suppose he could be described as one of those "mad/sound" fellas Candecide has in mind. He seemed charming and entertaining and within about 10 minutes, he was complimenting me on how I looked. I don't even think he was chatting me up, he simply said he found me attractive. Grand. 5 minutes later, he'd complimented my friend...then the other woman at our table (who we didn't know). The fact that I didn't get the vibe that he was trying to chat any of us up had me sitting there trying to figure out his game. I was immediately suspicious. I mentioned that I had a boyfriend and he'd be coming later but he was still as charming and gregarious as he was previously with all of us. He had the whole table (2 guys, 3 women) laughing most of the night.

From reading that, you might think this guy was a bit of a sleaze and believe me, having travelled around South America on my own for almost a year, I can spot the Latin Lothario type a mile off (was hurt by one or two on my travels so would be wary) but this guy simply had a "I will say and be whatever way I am without caring about how others perceive me". That's the air he gave off.

Later on, after he went home, my friend told us he's dying from cancer and had a few months to live. He'd spoken to his brothers who ran the fruit n veg shop with him and they'd told him he was trying to do as much as he could in his last few months. He'd given up on treatment and was concentrating on living life. You meet so many people out and about who give off the air that they'd rather be somewhere else (checking smart phones, not bothering to talk to other people, looking around them for a better option) and I thought to myself about how much time we waste over-analying our interactions and meetings with people and being miserable instead of just getting stuck in there and engaging with others for the sake of it and without caring about the consequences.

I suppose this fella was "mad" because he'd nothing at all to lose. Along the line he'd decided his happiness didn't hang solely on how other perceived him. That's an attractive trait in anyone. I'm not at all like that as I'd very much care what others thought of me (less now in my early 30s than early 20s) but it's an attitude I'd like to acquire as I get older.


I don't know what you can take from that. Not suggesting people should all imitate this fella but at least be aware that life is too short to be so concerned about what others think about you to the point that it hinders your own happiness.

i get what you're saying here but for some people it is extremely hard to let go and have a care free attitude. I don't actually care what others think of me but it still doesn't make me any more confident, when you get to the stage where you stop caring what people think and you still don't feel sociable you start to accept that it is just part of your personality. I was bullied in the past by people who i didn't care about or what they thought of me but it still had an impact on my confidence.

CastorTroy

I remember watching an episode of "Cupid" (Was a good show from the creator of Veronica Mars, starring Jeremy Piven) and in it Cupid was helping a singles group.
In one episode he took 3 of the guys to a club and told them to just go and chat up women. The incentive was the one who got rejected the most won a bottle of champagne while the most successful paid for it. So win/win really
I thought it was a great idea but I probably wouldn't try it myself. Fun to watch that bit though.

Legs.Eleven

markomuscle wrote: »

i get what you're saying here but for some people it is extremely hard to let go and have a care free attitude. I don't actually care what others think of me but it still doesn't make me any more confident, when you get to the stage where you stop caring what people think and you still don't feel sociable you start to accept that it is just part of your personality. I was bullied in the past by people who i didn't care about or what they thought of me but it still had an impact on my confidence.

I'm not really trying to say we should all be like this guy because some of us are just naturally introverted anyway (I'd consider myself somewhere in the middle) and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all yet were made to believe there is. And obviously that guys situation is extreme but it does make you think. Like yourself, I was bullied pretty badly at school and it has impacted my social interactions with people and my confidence levels over the years but unlike you, I unfortunately did take what they said on board and I've found it hard to shake off (in that I'm quite defensive) but I've come a long way since.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it's worth not over-analysing this kind of stuff or a lot of it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. You mark yourself down as one way ("I'm shy") or another ("I'm loud and outgoing") and you become that. Who's to say what you are? I suppose what I'm trying to say is enjoy the moment. Go with it. No one's personality is consistent and everyone can change and sometimes when you believe you messed up with a girl you like is simply down to both of you having nothing in common. I was probably louder and more outgoing in my 20s but I've calmed down a huge amount since and am actually probably more true to myself now than I was..

Some people just aren't made for being a big social animal or in anyway sociable at all but these aren't exclusively male traits; often the girl you're talking to is nervous as well and I think some guys forget that. Often we're trying to impress you (in our own way) just as much as you are.

Just for the record, I went off the cocky, mouthy fellas in my twenties. Fell for their bravado (not to say it's always an act either) till I found out it was just that and got hurt a few times. Believe it or not, there are women out there who like the down-to-earth, quieter, nerdy, introverted but friendly fellas. I've been going out with one approaching 2 and a half years.

shopaholic01

markomuscle wrote: »

i get what you're saying here but for some people it is extremely hard to let go and have a care free attitude. I don't actually care what others think of me but it still doesn't make me any more confident, when you get to the stage where you stop caring what people think and you still don't feel sociable you start to accept that it is just part of your personality. I was bullied in the past by people who i didn't care about or what they thought of me but it still had an impact on my confidence.

It is etremely difficult, that was really the point of it. The example given was a guy who abandoned inhibitions and worrying about other people because he had a terminal illness, and make a conscious decision to enjoy his life as much as possible.

I suppose you might think to yourself 'What's the worst that can happen? I'm dying anyway!''

SueBoom

I think it's simply a case of looking for women in situations you're comfortable in, rather than ones you're not. You're not really going to come off as your best if you're uncomfortable. Like someone here mentioned being not sociable, if that's the case you're not exactly going to enjoy pub/club situations so why attempt these kind of things there? People are only really going to see your good qualities (shyness not even factoring in) when you're comfortable and at ease with your surroundings. There are many, many ways to meet women, you don't always have to go for the obvious options, especially if it just doesn't work for you.

Pug160

shopaholic01 wrote: »

No, I'm not saying that at all. A confident man will have the balls to approach a woman, will believe he has a shot and can easily turn on the charm. He can also shrug off a knock back.

A shy guy can't do the above, and may appear awkward or even weird of he tries. So he needs a different approach - there are plenty of suggestions on this thread: Get comfortable talking to people in day to day situations etc.

My point is that shy guys may need to just talk normally to women instead of overtly flirting. If you read my posts you will see I'm not negative towards shy guys.

The world would be a very loud and annoying place if everyone was loud and outgoing.

beks101 wrote: »

+1.

I wasn't implying if you're shy "don't even bother, it won't happen and you'll freak the woman out".

I was saying approaching with the sole intention of scoring a woman you're attracted to, when by virtue of being shy you're not used to the approach and can't just turn the charm on like a light switch, may require re-evaluation. As a woman, I can tell you how that often comes across and as mentioned it can cause discomfort, a desire to get the hell away from the guy. It's usually not wrapped up in cheeky innuendo, banter, laughter and confidence the way it will be with a more out-going guy.

That's why building up to that kind of approach is a better idea. Getting used to conversing with women in less charged environments where you have nothing to lose.

OK, we're on the same page then. I agree that work needs to be done before attempting any potential ego destroying chat up attempts. The problem is, some guys might never get there, especially if they have more profound problems like Asperger's or a similar disability. Although the funny thing is, if a guy actually admitted he had Asperger's on a night out, he'd probably have a better chance than the 'normal' guy who was shy and awkward, as at least there would be some sort of logical reason behind his perceived lack of social skills. But anyway, that's irrelevant to the discussion.

Being slightly more mature women means that some of you have the benefit of experience and hindsight. In my opinion, lots of younger girls, although they may have different tastes in terms of physical appearance, go for a lot of similar traits in guys, and it means some men take a long time to 'get started', as it were. I think the fact that most people's social lives revolve around bars, clubs and alcohol is a major problem.

MOC88

Why do you have to jump in to a full blown conversation - just a smile/ nod or the ever brilliant wink can work wonders - if she sees it shell probably let you know - if she isn't it won't be a big deal. Oh and while girls do approach the odd time (increasing the better looking you are). A lot of girls can stare and stare or keep hovering around you and you might be oblivious to it if you're staring at your own feet all night. Then there are the ones who think that you're psychic. All these situations of this can be dealt with a wink and a smile if you want to, then when you get the positive it will make it easier to approach. I'm pretty shy but I'd be inclined to make a joke if a girl is standing wight beside my bar or ask for what are the best shots here etc.

Pug160

[QUOTE=Legs.Eleven;85594663



Some people just aren't made for being a big social animal or in anyway sociable at all but these aren't exclusively male traits; often the girl you're talking to is nervous as well and I think some guys forget that. Often we're trying to impress you (in our own way) just as much as you are.

.[/QUOTE]

Guys pay a heavier price for it unfortunately, unless they find a niche. A lot of the time girls just want to have fun - just like the Cyndi Lauper song suggests. Shy, low energy guys are already at a disadvantage but when you throw in a couple of other unwanted traits like poor social skills and an inability to look like you're enjoying yourself, it's not surprising that some people are not very successful in certain environments.

Some of my friends think I'm hilarious because I have a dry sense of humour and say some really funny things at times. But in order to appreciate that you'd have to get to know me, and it's the same with a lot of people. In bars and clubs you only have a small window of opportunity and you need to put your best self forward. But that's often not realistic. Do other things instead? Well that's a good idea but it can be tough at weekends when most social activities revolve around bars and alcohol.

OnTheCouch

Pug160 wrote: »

Being slightly more mature women means that some of you have the benefit of experience and hindsight. In my opinion, lots of younger girls, although they may have different tastes in terms of physical appearance, go for a lot of similar traits in guys, and it means some men take a long time to 'get started', as it were. I think the fact that most people's social lives revolve around bars, clubs and alcohol is a major problem.

Pug160 wrote: »

Guys pay a heavier price for it unfortunately, unless they find a niche. A lot of the time girls just want to have fun - just like the Cyndi Lauper song suggests. Shy, low energy guys are already at a disadvantage but when you throw in a couple of other unwanted traits like poor social skills and an inability to look like you're enjoying yourself, it's not surprising that some people are not very successful in certain environments.

Yeah Pug I agree with both of your above posts. Whereas I already mentioned how many women quite like shy guys and indeed some females here have confirmed this, there still remains the problem of how the shy guy meets women in the first place.

In my opinion, people vastly underestimate the sheer terror that many men experience when trying to chat up women. They would literally jump into a bullring and take their chances with an angry bull then go over to a girl's table or whatever. Now all of this is fairly illogical when you think about it, but the fact remains that it is a huge stumbling block.

Plus, despite the significant advances in feminism, the onus in the Western world is still very much on the man to make the first move. People have discussed the reasons behind this already so I won't go any more into it.

It results in situations where most women and the men who do not have anxiety issues are not actually aware to what degree males can have problems with approaching. Men who are incapable of this, will, especially in the bar/club scene where being outgoing is favoured, simply not be considered and essentially be ignored. It is the latter that is the worst part, as it is as if they did not exist. When the shyer men do eventually get a girlfriend, they often hang onto them for a lot longer than the average relationship, the relief that they do not have to go 'out on the pull' any longer is often palpable. Even if their relationships are not ideal, the simple fact of having a girlfriend removes all the societal pressure, from having to make the first move intially, to everyone constantly asking about their relationship status and if they're still single.

To go back to your point about the more mature women Pug, I have noticed a lot of the aforementioned shy men often end up with partners older than themselves. One would assume then that these ladies are more wordly and as a result sympathetic to the difficulties these men have. In addition, they probably have more relationship experience and recognise the qualities that introverted men can bring to a partnership.

Without wanting to offend any young girls reading, as I know personally that there are many of you who are not like this, I will go along with Pug in saying that there tends to be a certain type to whom many females in the age bracket of roughly 16-23/25 are attracted to. For example, popular, loud, attractive, out-going men are likely to do well in this age group. This does not mean they will appeal to all, simply the majority in my opinion, as acceptance by your peers is so important at that age. And as Pug said, the more introverted types may see their success increase the older they get.

Legs.Eleven

Pug160 wrote: »

Guys pay a heavier price for it unfortunately, unless they find a niche. A lot of the time girls just want to have fun - just like the Cyndi Lauper song suggests. Shy, low energy guys are already at a disadvantage but when you throw in a couple of other unwanted traits like poor social skills and an inability to look like you're enjoying yourself, it's not surprising that some people are not very successful in certain environments.

Some of my friends think I'm hilarious because I have a dry sense of humour and say some really funny things at times. But in order to appreciate that you'd have to get to know me, and it's the same with a lot of people. In bars and clubs you only have a small window of opportunity and you need to put your best self forward. But that's often not realistic. Do other things instead? Well that's a good idea but it can be tough at weekends when most social activities revolve around bars and alcohol.

We debated this before in AH, man. This is from your perspective as a man. How could you ever know? Women who don't look like their having fun or aren't willing to engage with fellas who come and talk to them (perhaps because they're shy) are labelled all manner of things (frigid, stuck up, bitch etc). Girls just want to have fun? I don't understand what you mean there. There are as many women as men who are socially inept or who hate the club/pub scene but obviously you've missed them having been drawn to the one who "just wanna have fun".

Edit: Although I do agree that in our society, it's generally up to the man to make the approach so in that sense, yes, it would hinder a man more but only to the point of actually approaching the girl (no easy feat). After that both are under the spotlight and the pressure is on.

Legs.Eleven

OnTheCouch wrote: »

Without wanting to offend any young girls reading, as I know personally that there are many of you who are not like this, I will go along with Pug in saying that there tends to be a certain type to whom many females in the age bracket of roughly 16-23/25 are attracted to. For example, popular, loud, attractive, out-going men are likely to do well in this age group. This does not mean they will appeal to all, simply the majority in my opinion. And as Pug said, the more introverted types may see their success increase the older they get.

I've been posting on Boards since 2007 (when I was 27) and I've read numerous comments on Boards about how women are, how we act in bars, the types of men we go for etc and never recognised the women described in either myself or my own friends and women I knew and as it transpires, when men on Boards talk about (or complain about) women's behaviour, they're talking about women in this age bracket. Even older guys my age (as I know a few posters here are) complaining about the behaviour of women and after a while, it becomes clear that they're specifically referring to young women in their late teens, early twenties.

Interesting because when I talk about the behaviour of men, I'd be talking about the behaviour of guys my age and up (as they'd be the ones I'd have an interest in). I couldn't speak for younger guys at all as I wouldn't see them on my wave length.

I suppose if you go for younger women, you're going to have to expect that they won't be as mature as you. I don't mean to insult young women as I've been one myself and it's just how it is for both genders.

I mentioned already that I was attracted to loud, mouthy guys in my twenties and now I'm with a certified fairly introverted nerdy type of fella that I probably wouldn't have gone for back then but suits me to the ground now in my 30s.

I suppose as you get older, you're more understanding of people and their imperfections, so Onthecouch is right - you'd probably have more luck with "older" women.

Il Giornale

Pug160 wrote: »

Being mad can actually be very beneficial, but it does of course depend on what type of mad you are. Someone who can be rejected thousands of times and not give a damn, as well as not caring what other people think of their actions - is a little bit mad. But they're mad in a good way, as not having insecurities and an ego means that people have no power over you. And that's an awesome quality to have. That will impress people even if you're not particularly handsome or good looking as it's quite rare.

Knowing your target is good but you should always try to be positive in every situation. It's easier said than done though.

I'd argue the opposite, the person who can get rejected and not be bothered is perfectly sane. The person who won't approach through fear of rejection is more justifiably the insane one, whether his is rejected or not doesn't make a difference, he lets women control him through fear of what they might think. I find women think it is quite a turn off for a man to be so afraid of what they think.

Il Giornale

cantdecide wrote: »

Yup. Sure is a shame I'm not mad.

Even if I had no ego or insecurities, I would still not be mad either. Being mad/ sound often looks a lot like being confident/ cocky. Some of the behaviours are similar. Personally, I don't put too much mass in confidence/ gregariousness/ uninhibited character. Some of the highest quality people I know wouldn't always be the most confident. Confidence and quality aren't always linked, IME. I myself focus on being the best person I can be rather than the most confident. Some people recognise it and some aren't interested. Can't please them all.

Life is simply much better and more enjoyable the more confident you are. Confidence is essentially being relaxed and free of anxiety. Feeling anxious is sh1t, I don't know why anyone would be content being anxious.

I find when I was more shy my awareness would be in my head a lot more, I micromanaged my what I said to avoid disapproval. As I became more confident my focus was much more in the here and now. Conversation flowed out of my mouth as my mind wasn't preoccupied with how I was coming across. Women responded much more positively to me. When you're
Shy you do lots of annoying things like saying something and waiting for the reaction. You live by the code other people decide what's good enough to say. When you become confident you say whatever you want to amuse yourself. That's the key difference, your self amusement is the priority, not trying to impress. Trying to impress pushes people away. It's not genuine. A confident person will say what they want and because they say and don't wait for a reaction they are received much better.

A confident person has the courage to reveal their true self IMO whereas the shy person is to fearful. When you can reveal your true feelings and thoughts you offer something of value to people. People can appreciate it and respect you for it.

Pug160

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

We debated this before in AH, man. This is from your perspective as a man. How could you ever know? Women who don't look like their having fun or aren't willing to engage with fellas who come and talk to them (perhaps because they're shy) are labelled all manner of things (frigid, stuck up, bitch etc). Girls just want to have fun? I don't understand what you mean there. There are as many women as men who are socially inept or who hate the club/pub scene but obviously you've missed them having been drawn to the one who "just wanna have fun".

Edit: Although I do agree that in our society, it's generally up to the man to make the approach so in that sense, yes, it would hinder a man more but only to the point of actually approaching the girl (no easy feat). After that both are under the spotlight and the pressure is on.

We have debated it before, but opinions are still very much mixed. Theoretically, a girl only needs to nod her head and say yes when a man approaches her. So for example, a man walks up, leads the conversation, and then asks her for her number. In that situation all she needs to do is sit there and then give the number if she wants to. It would take someone to be exceptionally awkward to not be able to do that. And I'm not trying to be facetious by saying that. I acknowledge that girls have problems too, but I don't think it has quite the same consequences.

Women are generally less forgiving to men who are socially inept than men are to women who are, which is another issue. This has also been discussed and quite a lot of people agree that it is true. I'm not here to point score, as doing so would be worthless as there's no benefit in doing that. Men and women do have advantages and disadvantages in life, that is no secret. The best thing to do is just get on with it. I happen to think that men probably still have more advantages overall, BTW.

I know not all women like the bar and club scene. But quite a high proportion of girls from 18 all the way up to about 30 do seem to be drawn to it, particularly in Ireland and the UK as it's part of the culture here to do so. Have a look around some social network websites. Most of the girls look like party girls. Now maybe that's only one part of their life, but it's often the main social part, which is an important thing to consider. My points still remain.

Pug160

Il Giornale wrote: »

I'd argue the opposite, the person who can get rejected and not be bothered is perfectly sane. The person who won't approach through fear of rejection is more justifiably the insane one, whether his is rejected or not doesn't make a difference, he lets women control him through fear of what they might think. I find women think it is quite a turn off for a man to be so afraid of what they think.

Humans are complex and emotional creatures. It's that complexity that probably creates some of the problems, especially in the modern, unnatural society that a lot of us live in. People who genuinely don't care are a little bit mad because it's quite unusual for humans not to be affected by continuous rejection.

I started a thread a while back stating that a lot of men who are unsuccessful with women actually have traits that are more common in women. It was locked almost instantly because the mod said I was generalising (which I was), but my point still remains and I stand by it. Women don't like men who are too much like themselves. History tells us that men have always had to be the strong ones who didn't show much emotion, so it makes perfect sense that women don't like perceived feminine traits, even if it seems a bit unfair in these modern times.

Snowie

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I've been posting on Boards since 2007 (when I was 27) and I've read numerous comments on Boards about how women are, how we act in bars, the types of men we go for etc and never recognised the women described in either myself or my own friends and women I knew and as it transpires, when men on Boards talk about (or complain about) women's behaviour, they're talking about women in this age bracket. Even older guys my age (as I know a few posters here are) complaining about the behaviour of women and after a while, it becomes clear that they're specifically referring to young women in their late teens, early twenties.

Interesting because when I talk about the behaviour of men, I'd be talking about the behaviour of guys my age and up (as they'd be the ones I'd have an interest in). I couldn't speak for younger guys at all as I wouldn't see them on my wave length.

I suppose if you go for younger women, you're going to have to expect that they won't be as mature as you. I don't mean to insult young women as I've been one myself and it's just how it is for both genders.

I mentioned already that I was attracted to loud, mouthy guys in my twenties and now I'm with a certified fairly introverted nerdy type of fella that I probably wouldn't have gone for back then but suits me to the ground now in my 30s.

I suppose as you get older, you're more understanding of people and their imperfections, so Onthecouch is right - you'd probably have more luck with "older" women.

Your like an advertisement why people shouldn't get married in there's 20s.

My thoughts are quite simple living a full life being active and involving your self with people is a great way to learn how to become more in tune to working with people. Thus making you a little more confident, with in your abilities to working talking and interacting with people as a hole.

I recently started working for my self while retaining a part time job. I get nervous and people suddenly start loosing confidence in me.. But I always get nervous before i start working on my own its natural I care about what I do and I have no one to fall back on, How ever I'm still learning how to handle it.

Why not learn how to handle your shyness instead of asking girls to advise you on something only you can learn to manage

Legs.Eleven

Snowie wrote: »

Why not learn how to handle your shyness instead of asking girls to advise you on something only you can learn to manage

I think shyness is something you can overcome (if you feel it's an issue) but it's often mistake for simply being an introvert, which is massively stigmatised in Western culture. I suppose the difficulty is trying to distinguish between the two.

Snowie

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I think shyness is something you can overcome (if you feel it's an issue) but it's often mistake for simply being an introvert, which is massively stigmatised in Western culture. I suppose the difficulty is trying to distinguish between the two.

You can't overcome shyness your learn to manege it. I'm shy sometimes really depends how I'm feeling about my self... bad day good day

Honey-ec

Pug160 wrote: »

Theoretically, a girl only needs to nod her head and say yes when a man approaches her. So for example, a man walks up, leads the conversation, and then asks her for her number. In that situation all she needs to do is sit there and then give the number if she wants to. It would take someone to be exceptionally awkward to not be able to do that. And I'm not trying to be facetious by saying that. I acknowledge that girls have problems too, but I don't think it has quite the same consequences.

I think you're grossly overestimating how easy it is for a woman to pull on a night out. I genuinely can't remember the last time I was chatted up - it's been well over a year and a half anyway. Now, thankfully, I have absolutely no issues making the first move if I spot a guy I like, never have, but I've actually gotten to the stage now where I'd love to be chatted up in a bar, just cause it's nice to get the ego boost every so often.

I'd a big long conversation with one of my male friends on a night out a few months ago about why I never get approached, and he told me I always look like I'm having too much fun, that if he was a single guy and saw me on a night out he'd be like "Yeah, she's hot, but she's enjoying herself too much, she won't be interested in chatting."

I was kind of floored, tbh. It's a no-win situation, as far as I can see. Sit there and look miserable, and be avoided cause you look like a hatchet-faced cow, or enjoy yourself and be written off as being "too happy on your own". As I said, it's not the end of the world for me as I'm perfectly happy to make the first move, but a lot of women can't or won't do that for whatever reason (which is a topic for a whole other day).

Er, I had a point there somewhere, but I've lost it in my waffle, sorry...

CastorTroy

Think you were saying that at the next boards beers you want every guy to hit on you. Or did I miss the point?
But I do agree with your friend. If enjoying yourself or even with a group of girls then I definitely wouldn't approach. And then if you were chatting to your male friend, automatic assumption would be he was more than that. Not that I approach girls on nights out. And only time I've been approached was when I had just started seeing another girl (who I met through a mutual friend)

Well think my obliviousness/talking too much came into play again on Sunday night.

Boofle

Honey-ec wrote: »

I think you're grossly overestimating how easy it is for a woman to pull on a night out. I genuinely can't remember the last time I was chatted up - it's been well over a year and a half anyway. Now, thankfully, I have absolutely no issues making the first move if I spot a guy I like, never have, but I've actually gotten to the stage now where I'd love to be chatted up in a bar, just cause it's nice to get the ego boost every so often.

I'd a big long conversation with one of my male friends on a night out a few months ago about why I never get approached, and he told me I always look like I'm having too much fun, that if he was a single guy and saw me on a night out he'd be like "Yeah, she's hot, but she's enjoying herself too much, she won't be interested in chatting."

I was kind of floored, tbh. It's a no-win situation, as far as I can see. Sit there and look miserable, and be avoided cause you look like a hatchet-faced cow, or enjoy yourself and be written off as being "too happy on your own". As I said, it's not the end of the world for me as I'm perfectly happy to make the first move, but a lot of women can't or won't do that for whatever reason (which is a topic for a whole other day).

Er, I had a point there somewhere, but I've lost it in my waffle, sorry...

I definitely think it is much easier for a girl to pull on a night out - I would get approached a lot but that doesn't mean I will necessarily like the look of them!

I have never approached a guy and doubt I ever would - I do feel sorry for them though sometimes - we are conditioned to think that they have to make the first move and chance the rejection or whatever.

jimbobaloobob

But that's condition or tradition if you like.

I think its less of an issue, fear of what will happen next probably bothers most people. The worry of what ifs.

In the words of Josh Ritter.

"I'd rather be the one who loved than to be loved and never even know"

Pug160

Honey-ec wrote: »

I think you're grossly overestimating how easy it is for a woman to pull on a night out. I genuinely can't remember the last time I was chatted up - it's been well over a year and a half anyway. Now, thankfully, I have absolutely no issues making the first move if I spot a guy I like, never have, but I've actually gotten to the stage now where I'd love to be chatted up in a bar, just cause it's nice to get the ego boost every so often.

I'd a big long conversation with one of my male friends on a night out a few months ago about why I never get approached, and he told me I always look like I'm having too much fun, that if he was a single guy and saw me on a night out he'd be like "Yeah, she's hot, but she's enjoying herself too much, she won't be interested in chatting."

I was kind of floored, tbh. It's a no-win situation, as far as I can see. Sit there and look miserable, and be avoided cause you look like a hatchet-faced cow, or enjoy yourself and be written off as being "too happy on your own". As I said, it's not the end of the world for me as I'm perfectly happy to make the first move, but a lot of women can't or won't do that for whatever reason (which is a topic for a whole other day).

Er, I had a point there somewhere, but I've lost it in my waffle, sorry...

I never said women had it easy - not by a long shot. I'll assume you're telling the truth about not being approached. But in a lot of cases, what girls really mean when they say that is that they're not being approached by the sort of men they want. Some men are intimidated by girls who are quite glamorous. The most intimidating IMO are the girls who are both attractive and very tall. So if you are both of those it could limit approaches. Having said that, if you've been going out for 18 months and haven't been approached, you are going to the wrong bars or clubs. At the very least, you'd get guys approaching you full of Dutch courage in certain places. Or the smaller number of guys who regularly approach women without any difficulty.

I will most certainly agree that there are a lot of women who don't get much out of the bar and club scene, but if there's an argument about who actually has it easier, then you'd have a hard time convincing me and most other people that it's just as hard for a woman to hook up as it is a man. Social dynamics tells us that that's not logical. Most women don't approach men because they know they don't have to. Waiting for guys to make a move limits the options girls have, though. I will admit that most approaches girls get from men are probably not in the least bit smooth or charming, but they still have to be counted.

cantdecide

Honey-ec wrote: »

...it's nice to get the ego boost every so often...

I'm sure it is, but be careful about leading guys on who think they might have a chance with you if they don't for whatever reason. I mean this a more general point. Going out for the craic is fine but a lot of people, myself excluded, see this a way/ the way to meet women. The long overdue 'well my bf....' is a real pain in the rocks. Not to mention all the other reasons a nice young lady may not wish to pursue romance/ whatever.

Honey-ec wrote: »

...It's a no-win situation, as far as I can see. Sit there and look miserable, and be avoided cause you look like a hatchet-faced cow, or enjoy yourself and be written off as being "too happy on your own".

Ah hayur, there's bound to be a happy medium. Contrary to popular belief, a lot of guys do try to distinguish between the ones who are out for the craic and the ones that my submit to a little flirtation.

IF I were given to the idea of approaching someone that caught my eye in a social situation, I might be speaking only for myself here, but I wouldn't be thinking of hitting on them on the dance floor or anywhere with too much of a partying-hard vibe.

astonaidan

Honey-ec wrote: »

I think you're grossly overestimating how easy it is for a woman to pull on a night out. I genuinely can't remember the last time I was chatted up - it's been well over a year and a half anyway. Now, thankfully, I have absolutely no issues making the first move if I spot a guy I like, never have, but I've actually gotten to the stage now where I'd love to be chatted up in a bar, just cause it's nice to get the ego boost every so often.



I'd a big long conversation with one of my male friends on a night out a few months ago about why I never get approached, and he told me I always look like I'm having too much fun, that if he was a single guy and saw me on a night out he'd be like "Yeah, she's hot, but she's enjoying herself too much, she won't be interested in chatting."


I was kind of floored, tbh. It's a no-win situation, as far as I can see. Sit there and look miserable, and be avoided cause you look like a hatchet-faced cow, or enjoy yourself and be written off as being "too happy on your own". As I said, it's not the end of the world for me as I'm perfectly happy to make the first move, but a lot of women can't or won't do that for whatever reason (which is a topic for a whole other day).

Er, I had a point there somewhere, but I've lost it in my waffle, sorry...

From a guys point of view, Id agree in general thats it not that easy to pull. A girl I met out the last night asked me "Was I ever going to make the move on her" Now I did what no other man in the history of the world has done and I walked away


Ive seen this with loads of girls, if shes out having a good night with all her friends, well it would be hard for a guy to go up talking to you in that case. I think if you come across as one of those girls if you see a guy your into leave the group and order your drink by yourself near him a simple smile would usually be all it will take for a guy to talk to you

Pug160

astonaidan wrote: »

From a guys point of view, Id agree in general thats it not that easy to pull. A girl I met out the last night asked me "Was I ever going to make the move on her" Now I did what no other man in the history of the world has done and I walked away


Ive seen this with loads of girls, if shes out having a good night with all her friends, well it would be hard for a guy to go up talking to you in that case. I think if you come across as one of those girls if you see a guy your into leave the group and order your drink by yourself near him a simple smile would usually be all it will take for a guy to talk to you

That's the sad part about it. There are probably times when we don't talk to the girls who like us. And part of that is down to other girls (sometimes) being very rude when we do, and part of it is simply not having the self confidence and mental fortitude to not give a damn, regardless of the outcome.

Girls quite often behave very differently when they are in a group. I think it quite often makes them more self conscious. Maybe they don't like to be seen as ''easy'' by their friends. Maybe they just get flustered sometimes. Maybe they just want a girls night out that particular night, and are very blunt about it. Other times they could just be trying to be nasty or immature to impress their friends because a lot of them think most fellas are slimeballs.

For some men being rejected badly hurts much worse than a good kicking would. It's much more profound.

astonaidan

Pug160 wrote: »

That's the sad part about it. There are probably times when we don't talk to the girls who like us. And part of that is down to other girls (sometimes) being very rude when we do, and part of it is simply not having the self confidence and mental fortitude to not give a damn, regardless of the outcome.

Girls quite often behave very differently when they are in a group. I think it quite often makes them more self conscious. Maybe they don't like to be seen as ''easy'' by their friends. Maybe they just get flustered sometimes. Maybe they just want a girls night out that particular night, and are very blunt about it. Other times they could just be trying to be nasty or immature to impress their friends because a lot of them think most fellas are slimeballs.

For some men being rejected badly hurts much worse than a good kicking would. It's much more profound.

I generally wouldnt have a problem talking to any girl I was into, a problem I have myself is if Im really into a girl I generally dont make the moves on her

I agree only been rejected by a girl once, a decidedly average Galway girl who I asked out the weekend after the girl I was really into emigrated and well it knocked my confidence

Group mentality takes us all at some stage :pac: