Loyalism in a United ireland

Banjo String

Jelle1880 wrote: »

None of which led to trouble.
So I don't see your problem.

I don't have a problem. I simply answered your question:

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Who was walking through nationalist areas ?

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Does that matter ?
For the Unionist population these parades are equally irritating and offensive as I'd imagine OO parades are for the nationalist population.

Of course it matters.
Do you think the nationalist community would be up in arms over marches of they were confined to loyalist communities?

Your ignoring the comparisons.

I've zero problems with orange/loyalist band parades, they can do it 366 days a year as far as I'm concerned, so long as they manage to do it without annoying another community that doesn't share their particular views.

Why would I tbh?

Jelle1880 wrote: »

It was the only one where police blocked off the road (rightly, I might add as it was forbidden to pass past the Ardoyne shops).

Like I said. They had 500 other parades to choose from, yet the banning from this one upset them so much they're now rioting since Friday night?

The orange order by its very nature is sectarian/bigoted.

Personally that doesn't bother me in itself. What bothers me is when they attempt to ram their sectarianism and bigoted views down the throats of people who do not want them their areas.

The KKK don't get to parade in Nairobi or Harlem.

Jelle1880

SamHall wrote: »

I don't have a problem. I simply answered your question:





Of course it matters.
Do you think the nationalist community would be up in arms over marches of they were confined to loyalist communities?

Your ignoring the comparisons.

You asked me to give examples of nationalist parades that use triumphalism over loyalists, I said it doesn't matter as that's not my point.

Nationalist/Republican parades are not about triumphalism, but that doesn't change the fact they are offensive to certain people.

That was why I compared them, because if people are going to use the argument of 'they're offensive so they must be banned' then it becomes a two-way street.

[quoteLike I said. They had 500 other parades to choose from, yet the banning from this one upset them so much they're now rioting since Friday night?[/quote]

Because they strongly disagreed with the ban to march past the Ardoyne, it's no secret that the Parades Commission is disliked on both sides of the divide and the OO feel that the PC is eroding their rights every year.

The orange order by its very nature is sectarian/bigoted.

Personally that doesn't bother me in itself. What bothers me is when they attempt to ram their sectarianism and bigoted views down the throats of people who do not want them their areas.

The KKK don't get to parade in Nairobi or Harlem.

The KKK actually do parade (or at least did, when they had the members) in black areas.

I see your point though about causing problems by provoking people who strongly dislike them, but as has been proven is that at the vast majority of marches there are no problems.

Karl Stein

bilston wrote: »

... the whole flag dispute probably ensured that most moderate and middle class Protestants in East Belfast will vote for Long and the Alliance Party in even bigger numbers in the 2015 UK election

Hopefully. It'll be very interesting to see if this does transpire. Afaia the flag was to come down altogether and it was actually Alliance who sought and secured a compromise solution of flying it on the same days as Britain.

junder

I am pie wrote: »

Why are you trying to pigeon hole me here? Is it too challenging for you to actually answer any questions. Once more, I am explaining to you why loyalists are attached to the Somme/UVF imagery. They are ignoring the sacrifice of other Irish soldiers but I am not. It is irrelevant to what I am trying to explain to you. Happy to ignore it? No, what would you like to discuss? Tragically foolish? Not for me to say, they had their reasons and as they are now dead I wouldn't feel comfortable in dismissing them. entirely.

Once more, any comment on the existence of otherwise of these lenny murphy and co banners? Genuinely, I would want to know why they can't be addressed under current hate crime or incitement laws.

Do you condemn the pipe bombs and blast bombs and do you support the PSNI's policing approach? Do you recognise the injustice of youths throwing bombs at the police while they attempt to uphold a controversial ruling which favoured the ardoyne residents more than the OO.

The Orange Order won't flee, again, I would like that they disappeared tomorrow, but they won't. You only expose your naivety in believing that they will.

A more mature and conciliatory approach will be required if you ever want to achieve a UI. If not, perceived persecution just serves a recruiting ground for the yobs and knackers you saw dancing on top of police vans this week.

I respect you trying to put our point across but I couldn't help notice you point about not remembering the sacrifice of the Irish volunteers, u can assure you we do. Every year at the Somme wreaths are laid not only in memory of the 36th ulster divsion but also in memory of the 10th and 16th Irish divsion by members of the PUL community who go over as part of Somme society's. on a side note I was part of the 12th parade, along and brutality hot day I can tell you. The route we take used to be contentious but now we follow a route as laid down by the Parades commission and the republican community who got thier way, we have followed this new route for years now and yet republican still saw fit to belt us with eggs and bottles done of which hit a 6 old girl who accompanied her father on the morning parade. We carried on with our 2 mile diversion so that republicans would not be offended along the 200m stretch of road that apparently is 'theirs' on the way back we where greeted by baying republican crowds as we passed the very edge of thier area, which we had no choice to do on account of thier being a river in the way. Ironically some of those shouting at us are involved in a cross community project that my band is involved in, some of them would have even been in our band hall. My 12th ended with a couple of beers in the band hall and then away home to bed since I was spent. A 14 mile march in that heat was a trail of stamina, many a time I wished for a water cannon to dose me with cold water instead I just has bottles of water which I did not so much drink as throw around myself

SoulandForm

bilston wrote: »

I have a suspicion that Robinson was behind the whole "fleg" malarky at the beginning. He was using it as a way to get back at Naomi Long and the Alliance Party for daring to take his East Belfast constituency from him. I suspect (and it's just a theory) that things quickly got out of control in a way that he didn't see coming and then he washed his hands of the whole thing. The irony of course is that the whole flag dispute probably ensured that most moderate and middle class Protestants in East Belfast will vote for Long and the Alliance Party in even bigger numbers in the 2015 UK election because they were appalled at the flag protests and saw the bigger picture in terms of jobs and the economy, which despite some appearances, I maintain the majority of people in NI care about more than flags, emblems and marches.

Certainly the DUP was- remember they originally denied creating the leaflet that sparked all the fuss until they caught red-handed (no pun intended!). Naomi Long actually a lot of working class support in Belfast, but actual working class as opposed to the drinking class support from which the likes of PUP draw their strength from. I disagree with her politics but she is a good person who puts in a lot of work and genuine care for people. Personally I think she will keep the seat- if she doesnt I will totally despair of the place.

junder

SamHall wrote: »

I don't have a problem. I simply answered your question:





Of course it matters.
Do you think the nationalist community would be up in arms over marches of they were confined to loyalist communities?

Your ignoring the comparisons.

I've zero problems with orange/loyalist band parades, they can do it 366 days a year as far as I'm concerned, so long as they manage to do it without annoying another community that doesn't share their particular views.

Why would I tbh?






Like I said. They had 500 other parades to choose from, yet the banning from this one upset them so much they're now rioting since Friday night?

The orange order by its very nature is sectarian/bigoted.

Personally that doesn't bother me in itself. What bothers me is when they attempt to ram their sectarianism and bigoted views down the throats of people who do not want them their areas.

The KKK don't get to parade in Nairobi or Harlem.

Our very existence annoys republicans. In order for the republican vision for a united ireland to be achived the loyal orders and bands need to broken as they are a thread that weaves through the PUL community and binds us together.

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

Certainly the DUP was- remember they originally denied creating the leaflet that sparked all the fuss until they caught red-handed (no pun intended!). Naomi Long actually a lot of working class support in Belfast, but actual working class as opposed to the drinking class support from which the likes of PUP draw their strength from. I disagree with her politics but she is a good person who puts in a lot of work and genuine care for people. Personally I think she will keep the seat- if she doesnt I will totally despair of the place.

Noami long is finished in east belfast, the working class support you delude yourself that she has, has gone.

SoulandForm

I am pie wrote: »

Why are you trying to pigeon hole me here? Is it too challenging for you to actually answer any questions. Once more, I am explaining to you why loyalists are attached to the Somme/UVF imagery. They are ignoring the sacrifice of other Irish soldiers but I am not. It is irrelevant to what I am trying to explain to you. Happy to ignore it? No, what would you like to discuss? Tragically foolish? Not for me to say, they had their reasons and as they are now dead I wouldn't feel comfortable in dismissing them. entirely.

Once more, any comment on the existence of otherwise of these lenny murphy and co banners? Genuinely, I would want to know why they can't be addressed under current hate crime or incitement laws.

Do you condemn the pipe bombs and blast bombs and do you support the PSNI's policing approach? Do you recognise the injustice of youths throwing bombs at the police while they attempt to uphold a controversial ruling which favoured the ardoyne residents more than the OO.

The Orange Order won't flee, again, I would like that they disappeared tomorrow, but they won't. You only expose your naivety in believing that they will.

A more mature and conciliatory approach will be required if you ever want to achieve a UI. If not, perceived persecution just serves a recruiting ground for the yobs and knackers you saw dancing on top of police vans this week.

Here for starters- http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/20-years-on-death-of-a-uvf-killer-still-looms-large-in-loyalist-memory-28551805.html

Loyalists have been calling on facebook for a new armed campaign and a sectarian cleansing of the occupied territory since the fleg mess started- of course the UK state is not going to do anything about that unlike on the UK mainland where they have jailed people for burning their vile poppy and posting pictures of it on social media. The British know that they need Loyalists, and that they need to keep them ignorant which is why they have been continually running down the level of education offered in state schools to the ground.

Loyalists respect force and strength, they see compromise as weakness. That is something that the vast majority of other Irish people, particularly those in the south have not copped on to.

bilston

junder wrote: »

Noami long is finished in east belfast, the working class support you delude yourself that she has, has gone.

And what about the rest of East Belfast?

SoulandForm

junder wrote: »

Noami long is finished in east belfast, the working class support you delude yourself that she has, has gone.

You have spoken here sympathetically of David Irvine and if you have done so in real life I would strongly suspect that not a lot of people who say anything nice about her around you. We shall though wont we?

bilston

junder wrote: »

Our very existence annoys republicans. In order for the republican vision for a united ireland to be achived the loyal orders and bands need to broken as they are a thread that weaves through the PUL community and binds us together.

Sorry but the existence of the "Loyal" Orders annoy hundreds of thousands of Unionists as well.

I am pie

SamHall wrote: »

The orange order had one of its main parades in Rashsrkin, a predominantly nationalist village in county Antrim.

Quite close to the predominantly loyalist areas of Cullybackey, Ballymoney and Ballymena. For some reason they chose Rasharkin though.



Name me one parade/commemoration event where republicans march on loyalist areas proclaiming victory over the unionist community?



So they had 500 other parades to choose from, but this particular one was the most important one?



Have we proof of this?

Sorry, proof of what exactly?

junder

SoulandForm wrote: »

You have spoken here sympathetically of David Irvine and if you have done so in real life I would strongly suspect that not a lot of people who say anything nice about her around you. We shall though wont we?

I knew a David personnly and he was better recieved in east belfast then noami ever was or will be, if he was alive I doubt she would have even got a seat on the first place. However as somebody who is from the PUL community the chances are I am going to have a better insight into the thinking of that community then say a fanatical republican such as yourself

I am pie

SoulandForm wrote: »

Here for starters- http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/20-years-on-death-of-a-uvf-killer-still-looms-large-in-loyalist-memory-28551805.html

Loyalists have been calling on facebook for a new armed campaign and a sectarian cleansing of the occupied territory since the fleg mess started- of course the UK state is not going to do anything about that unlike on the UK mainland where they have jailed people for burning their vile poppy and posting pictures of it on social media. The British know that they need Loyalists, and that they need to keep them ignorant which is why they have been continually running down the level of education offered in state schools to the ground.

Loyalists respect force and strength, they see compromise as weakness. That is something that the vast majority of other Irish people, particularly those in the south have not copped on to.

Ok, 1 from 2010, should not have been displayed.

Any from 2013? I suggest you are exaggerating the Lenny Murphy, Billy Wright claims and in doing so suggesting that the PSNI would be complicit in allowing these to pass.

Which, they are not.

Again. Any comment on the blast bombs and pipe bombs?

What is your position on the PSNI policing of the parades?

Cork24

bilston wrote: »

Northern Ireland pay their taxes to the UK government so I think it's only right that they expect something in return..

They could help put a stop to the Orange order march. Their is no need for such a march of pour Hate nothing more.

people around the world looking at this will think twice about traveling to the North.

first it was over the Union Flag now its over this, What Next Burger King closed down ?

Karl Stein

junder wrote: »

Our very existence annoys republicans. In order for the republican vision for a united ireland to be achived the loyal orders and bands need to broken

Ah the good old loyalist paranoia and siege mentally. It's absolute nonsense of course.

junder

bilston wrote: »

Sorry but the existence of the "Loyal" Orders annoy hundreds of thousands of Unionists as well.

Does it now, you have proof of this, because I saw 10's of thousands of 'unionists' from all backgrounds lining the parade route. In fact you could say that across Northern Ireland either taking part or watching the various 12th parades across the country there where 100's of thousands of unionist, are these the ones you think hate the loyal orders?

bilston

Cork24 wrote: »

They could help put a stop the Orange order march. Their is no need for such a march of pour Hate nothing more.

people around the world looking at this will think twice about traveling to the North.

Why though, it's the actions of a couple of hundred people that we're talking about. You think everyone in Northern Ireland should be punished because of the actions of a bunch of protestors, most of whom are only protesting because they got hammered and had nothing better to do and thought it would be good craic to attack the Police. Every village has it's idiot, unfortunately our (NI's) idiots mask their muppetry under the guise of politics.

bilston

junder wrote: »

Does it now, you have proof of this, because I saw 10's of thousands of 'unionists' from all backgrounds lining the parade route. In fact you could say that across Northern Ireland either taking part or watching the various 12th parades across the country there where 100's of thousands of unionist, are these the ones you think hate the loyal orders?

There were hundreds of thousands of Unionists who weren't lining the streets as well. Do you honestly think that Orange Order is hunky dory as it is? Do you not think that it needs to move with the times. Speaking as Unionist I find the whole thing pretty fecking embarrassing at this stage. There are many good members of the Orders and indeed outside of Belfast things are different but in Belfast in particular there is an element associated with the Orange Order that are quite frankly scary and the sooner the Orange Order dissassociate themselves from them the better. I grew up going to 12th demonstrations and enjoyed them for the day out that they were but not now, not a chance, certainly not in Belfast.

SoulandForm

I am pie wrote: »

Again. Any comment on the blast bombs and pipe bombs?

What is your position on the PSNI policing of the parades?

They were wrong. The use of them was immoral.

To a large extent I can sympathize with the PSNI on a human level but realistically its long past time that they were disbanded and the UN brought in to police the place in the short term at least.

Cork24

bilston wrote: »

Why though, it's the actions of a couple of hundred people that we're talking about. You think everyone in Northern Ireland should be punished because of the actions of a bunch of protestors, most of whom are only protesting because they got hammered and had nothing better to do and thought it would be good craic to attack the Police. Every village has it's idiot, unfortunately our (NI's) idiots mask their muppetry under the guise of politics.

So you think its ok, for the order to tell people in the first place to get out on the Street, its ok for paisley to speak of hate when the Order was banned on the return route,

if paisley is a man of the Church he would have come out and spoke against this sort of thing, Now tonight we will have fifth night of troubles.

The PSNI aren't doing much to put a stop to this, they should bat charge, shot them with rubber bullet's and tear gas them..

this will break them up into smaller groups enough to pick them up. without much fight.

but what we have seen is the PSNI sitting back allowing them to rank up the N.I bill.

An Riabhach

Neo Unionist wrote: »

One of the main reasons why Ireland was partitioned into North and South was because Irish and Ulster Unionists took it upon themselvesto fight against Home Rule. On the opposite side of things you had Irish Nationalists who were going to fight for its implementation. Yet the country was divided to cater for the Unionist minority group, a group who didn’t even have exclusive representation in their own newly created state.

So why is it that Loyalists are considered a potential threat in a United Ireland when the police are capable of dealing with the current republican threat in a divided Ireland considering that Republicans outnumber Unionists on the island?

Was it, and is it the case that Loyalism and the threat it brings is overhyped in order to justify partition?

The whole island of Ireland cannot vote on a United Ireland-as it stands it is down to whenever a referendum is granted to the people of Northern Ireland.Unionists still outnumber Nationalists in Northern Ireland,so if one was to take place in the near future,the Unionists would win by majority.

There has been a lot of talk about Catholics being almost neck and neck nowadays with Protestants in N.I.,but that has little or no significance to any change,as that is merely their religious choice.The majority of these Catholics are identifying themselves as British.

SoulandForm

Cork24 wrote: »

So you think its ok, for the order to tell people in the first place to get out on the Street, its ok for paisley to speak of hate when the Order was banned on the return route,

if paisley is a man of the Church he would have come out and spoke against this sort of thing, Now tonight we will have fifth night of troubles.

The PSNI aren't doing much to put a stop to this, they should bat charge, shot them with rubber bullet's and tear gas them..

this will break them up into smaller groups enough to pick them up. without much fight.

but what we have seen is the PSNI sitting back allowing them to rank up the N.I bill.

Why do you think the Brits brought in people from the UK mainland for the policing operation?

Its because the PSNI as a local police force are vunerable to attack bought from Republican militarists and also from Loyalists.

They obviously have done this to reduce the chances of something bad happening to a PSNI officer or even worse their families.

London created the problem- let London pay for it.

A wee bit of history for you....

bilston

Cork24 wrote: »

So you think its ok, for the order to tell people in the first place to get out on the Street, its ok for paisley to speak of hate when the Order was banned on the return route,

if paisley is a man of the Church he would have come out and spoke against this sort of thing, Now tonight we will have fifth night of troubles.

The PSNI aren't doing much to put a stop to this, they should bat charge, shot them with rubber bullet's and tear gas them..

this will break them up into smaller groups enough to pick them up. without much fight.

but what we have seen is the PSNI sitting back allowing them to rank up the N.I bill.

Well firstly I don't think Ian Paisley has anything to do with this.

As for the PSNI they are using Baton rounds, do you want them to use live rounds instead? What's their alternative? The last time a Northern Ireland Police Force ran out of ideas it led to the deployment of thousands of British soldiers for 40 years so I imagine the PSNI are acting quite sensibly at the moment as frustrating as it may be.

And no I don't think it's ok for the Orange Order to get people on the streets, by all means have a protest of some sort but don't whip up tensions.

Where did you get the idea that I thought it was ok for any of the above in your post? I said it would be wrong for the UK govt to cut funding from NI but that's hardly me endorsing any of the above?

Cork24

SoulandForm wrote: »

Why do you think the Brits brought in people from the UK mainland for the policing operation?

Its because the PSNI as a local police force are vunerable to attack bought from Republican militarists and also from Loyalists.

They obviously have done this to reduce the chances of something bad happening to a PSNI officer or even worse their families.

London created the problem- let London pay for it.

A wee bit of history for you....

my problem is not with the PSNI, my problem is the Orange order marching and the way they act when they couldn't do a return route, knowing full well they were not meant to return down the road but they did any way and look at the trouble it brought with it.

bilston

I see Willie Frazer was arrested on the Newtownards Road today...that will ease tensions...

junder

bilston wrote: »

There were hundreds of thousands of Unionists who weren't lining the streets as well. Do you honestly think that Orange Order is hunky dory as it is? Do you not think that it needs to move with the times. Speaking as Unionist I find the whole thing pretty fecking embarrassing at this stage. There are many good members of the Orders and indeed outside of Belfast things are different but in Belfast in particular there is an element associated with the Orange Order that are quite frankly scary and the sooner the Orange Order dissassociate themselves from them the better. I grew up going to 12th demonstrations and enjoyed them for the day out that they were but not now, not a chance, certainly not in Belfast.

Just how many unionists do you think live in Northern Ireland? You speak of hundreds of thousands of unionists hating the loyal orders ( note I said loyal orders, not just the orange order) but can provide no proof except your own anecdotal opinion, which contradicts the actual evidence of people watching or taking part in the 12th celebrations the length and breadth of Northern Ireland.
Personnly I still enjoy the 12th in Belfast and it was great pride that my new born son got to have his first 12th which was enjoyed peacefully with friends and family on the lisburn road. I look forward to the day that my son can join me in my band to walk the 12th.

SoulandForm

Cork24 wrote: »

my problem is not with the PSNI, my problem is the Orange order marching and the way they act when they couldn't do a return route, knowing full well they were not meant to return down the road but they did any way and look at the trouble it brought with it.

Okay fair enough.

What about the Orange Order paying for policing and hospital costs of their carry on than rather than ordinary people in the north?

everdead.ie

bilston wrote: »

I see Willie Frazer was arrested on the Newtownards Road today...that will ease tensions...

In Fairness I don't think anyone actually takes note of Willie though do they?

SoulandForm

everdead.ie wrote: »

In Fairness I don't think anyone actually takes note of Willie though do they?

Yes they do- he was the de facto leader of the "fleg" movement. It would be incredibly naive to underestimate his political weight. His facebook page and that of the "Friends of William Frazer" have massive amounts of people supporting them.

junder

everdead.ie wrote: »

In Fairness I don't think anyone actually takes note of Willie though do they?

I'm no fan of wille frazer

Neo Unionist

It's about time the PSNI stood up to the Orange Order and their thuggish supporters. Loyalists need to understand that the PSNI is not there to support the Loyalist community alone but also exists to support the Nationalist community.

bilston

junder wrote: »

Just how many unionists do you think live in Northern Ireland? You speak of hundreds of thousands of unionists hating the loyal orders ( note I said loyal orders, not just the orange order) but can provide no proof except your own anecdotal opinion, which contradicts the actual evidence of people watching or taking part in the 12th celebrations the length and breadth of Northern Ireland.
Personnly I still enjoy the 12th in Belfast and it was great pride that my new born son got to have his first 12th which was enjoyed peacefully with friends and family on the lisburn road. I look forward to the day that my son can join me in my band to walk the 12th.

Yeah I wouldn't have any issues particularly with the Apprentice Boys.

Well maybe we talk to different people but while some of my friends do go an watch the 12th the vast majority don't. Hate is a strong word and I'm not sure I used it (maybe I did) but I will say that a lot of Unionists are tired of the shame these contentious parades bring on the Unionist community every single year. Yes there is obvious provocation but why do the Loyalists react to it. For example why on earth did a band stop outside a Catholic Church and play the Sash? That's just stupid.

As for how many Unionists there are in NI? Based on a population of 1.8m, I'd say 1 million or thereabouts. If 200,000 are out either marching or watching then 800,000 aren't.

SoulandForm

bilston wrote: »

As for how many Unionists there are in NI? Based on a population of 1.8m, I'd say 1 million or thereabouts. If 200,000 are out either marching or watching then 800,000 aren't.

Loyalists/Orange men love to present the PUL community as the borg and themselves as its collective mouthpiece, however in the real world many people in the PUL community have a strong dislike of the Order for a variety of reasons- Conservative Christians because of its Freemasonic overtones, atheists for obvious reasons, others because they feel (correctly) that it undermines stability in the place and so on and so on. Than there are others who are indifferent to it and wouldnt miss it or care if it was gone.

Cork24

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0717/462917-belfast/

Have they not seen enough damage already done this week alone ?

gallag

Cork24 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0717/462917-belfast/

Have they not seen enough damage already done this week alone ?

Why does it say through the republican ardoyne area? Surely thats not correct?

Cork24

gallag wrote: »

Why does it say through the republican ardoyne area? Surely thats not correct?

maybe its the only part they never got to go into.

if they are allowed to walk again it is only showing that Belfast still hasn't changed,

Why don't the British give us back Armagh, Down, Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh.

They can hold onto Antrim if they like. nothing but trouble..

junder

gallag wrote: »

Why does it say through the republican ardoyne area? Surely thats not correct?

It's not correct, at no time has or does the parade pass through the arydone

Madam

Yes its wrong - http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/orange-lodges-refused-permission-to-walk-past-ardoyne-shops-1-5298939

WakeUp

Neo Unionist wrote: »

So why is it that Loyalists are considered a potential threat in a United Ireland when the police are capable of dealing with the current republican threat in a divided Ireland considering that Republicans outnumber Unionists on the island?

Just as a matter of interest OP what type of united Ireland do you envisage when asking the above question?..Neo unionists subscribe to an idea of a united Ireland being reabsorbed into the United Kingdom. If my understanding of that is wrong please feel free to correct me on it. There will always be an element within Loyalism who would never accept a united Ireland completely independent from Britain, and in turn they would pose a potential threat & security risk. If a united Ireland came about with some form of link maintained with Britain I dont think Loyalists would pose as much of a problem as one without a link.
Depending on which type of united Ireland you envisage leads down two completely different paths when assertaining the potential Loyalist terrorist response & threat and in turn our response. Certain sections of Loyalism lost the plot recently turning animalistic in their nature when refused permission to march down a road. If thats an indicator of future behaviour from a certain element it really doesnt matter if the police can deal with it or not. They would be a threat that isnt the question. What would their capability/support/ability to operate entail. Strategy and tactics how would they roll. These are the type of questions that would need answering. I think the question of a united Ireland should be left to the generations in waiting, if its rushed or forced it will only lead to problems. It needs to work in the real world.

Maximuspullo.

I would assume there would be an uprising in rural Ulster against the invaders if it happened.

Neo Unionist

WakeUp wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest OP what type of united Ireland do you envisage when asking the above question?..Neo unionists subscribe to an idea of a united Ireland being reabsorbed into the United Kingdom. If my understanding of that is wrong please feel free to correct me on it. There will always be an element within Loyalism who would never accept a united Ireland completely independent from Britain, and in turn they would pose a potential threat & security risk. If a united Ireland came about with some form of link maintained with Britain I dont think Loyalists would pose as much of a problem as one without a link.
Depending on which type of united Ireland you envisage leads down two completely different paths when assertaining the potential Loyalist terrorist response & threat and in turn our response. Certain sections of Loyalism lost the plot recently turning animalistic in their nature when refused permission to march down a road. If thats an indicator of future behaviour from a certain element it really doesnt matter if the police can deal with it or not. They would be a threat that isnt the question. What would their capability/support/ability to operate entail. Strategy and tactics how would they roll. These are the type of questions that would need answering. I think the question of a united Ireland should be left to the generations in waiting, if its rushed or forced it will only lead to problems. It needs to work in the real world.

A republican United Ireland. See that's the thing, I don't understand how Loyalists will ever be able to sustain any type of campaign since nationalists outnumber them 4 to 1. Judging by the population, any attempt by them to instigate a campaign would be futile since it would only be a fraction of the former IRA campaign judging by the Unionist numbers.

I don't think Loyalists were ever a realistic threat to be begin with, not in the past or even in the future.

The British Government only used that threat as an excuse to remain in Ireland.

Maximuspullo. wrote: »

I would assume there would be an uprising in rural Ulster against the invaders if it happened.

That's interesting, do you consider your nationalist neighbours in the 6 counties as invaders?

Jelle1880

Neo Unionist wrote: »

A republican United Ireland. See that's the thing, I don't understand how Loyalists will ever be able to sustain any type of campaign since nationalists outnumber them 4 to 1. Judging by the population, any attempt by them to instigate a campaign would be futile since it would only be a fraction of the former IRA campaign judging by the Unionist numbers.

I don't think Loyalists were ever a realistic threat to be begin with, not in the past or even in the future.

The British Government only used that threat as an excuse to remain in Ireland.

That's a very simplistic way of putting it, don't you think ?

Population wise you're correct with those numbers, but what matters is what part of the population is willing to turn to violence.

And somehow I think that if it comes to this it won't be as simple as a 4/1 ratio in favour of Nationalists/Republicans.

Understating the possible threat of Loyalists is silly, they've (and their counterparts) have proven in the past that the threat is very real.

Neo Unionist

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That's a very simplistic way of putting it, don't you think ?

As a matter of fact I don't. Even at their peak the majority of their victims were innocent catholic civilians. And the security services turned a blind eye to a lot of their activities and at times even assisted them.

If they ever behaved the way they did during the troubles in a United Ireland I can't imagine there would be much support for them not to mention that the Irish security forces would be very quick to clamp down on them.

Besides its only a matter of time before the people in the six counties realise that a United Ireland will solve all paramilitary problems. A united Ireland will neutralise the IRA because their objectives will be achieved. The only threat that will remain will be Loyalist paramilitaries whose strength will be only a fraction of the IRAs strength considering the islands demographics. With the combined efforts of the northern police force and Gardaí, the threat will be eliminated quite fast I'd imagine.

junder

Neo Unionist wrote: »

As a matter of fact I don't. Even at their peak the majority of their victims were innocent catholic civilians. And the security services turned a blind eye to a lot of their activities and at times even assisted them.

If they ever behaved the way they did during the troubles in a United Ireland I can't imagine there would be much support for them not to mention that the Irish security forces would be very quick to clamp down on them.

Besides its only a matter of time before the people in the six counties realise that a United Ireland will solve all paramilitary problems. A united Ireland will neutralise the IRA because their objectives will be achieved. The only threat that will remain will be Loyalist paramilitaries whose strength will be only a fraction of the IRAs strength considering the islands demographics. With the combined efforts of the northern police force and Gardaí, the threat will be eliminated quite fast I'd imagine.

Mean while in the real world

Noreen1

I am pie wrote: »

Why are you trying to pigeon hole me here? Is it too challenging for you to actually answer any questions. Once more, I am explaining to you why loyalists are attached to the Somme/UVF imagery. They are ignoring the sacrifice of other Irish soldiers but I am not. It is irrelevant to what I am trying to explain to you. Happy to ignore it? No, what would you like to discuss? Tragically foolish? Not for me to say, they had their reasons and as they are now dead I wouldn't feel comfortable in dismissing them. entirely.

Once more, any comment on the existence of otherwise of these lenny murphy and co banners? Genuinely, I would want to know why they can't be addressed under current hate crime or incitement laws.

Do you condemn the pipe bombs and blast bombs and do you support the PSNI's policing approach? Do you recognise the injustice of youths throwing bombs at the police while they attempt to uphold a controversial ruling which favoured the ardoyne residents more than the OO.

The Orange Order won't flee, again, I would like that they disappeared tomorrow, but they won't. You only expose your naivety in believing that they will.

A more mature and conciliatory approach will be required if you ever want to achieve a UI. If not, perceived persecution just serves a recruiting ground for the yobs and knackers you saw dancing on top of police vans this week.

Why do you think the ruling favoured the Ardoyne residents?
It seems to me that it was a genuine attempt to facilitate both sides of the political divide?

junder wrote: »

I respect you trying to put our point across but I couldn't help notice you point about not remembering the sacrifice of the Irish volunteers, u can assure you we do. Every year at the Somme wreaths are laid not only in memory of the 36th ulster divsion but also in memory of the 10th and 16th Irish divsion by members of the PUL community who go over as part of Somme society's. on a side note I was part of the 12th parade, along and brutality hot day I can tell you. The route we take used to be contentious but now we follow a route as laid down by the Parades commission and the republican community who got thier way, we have followed this new route for years now and yet republican still saw fit to belt us with eggs and bottles done of which hit a 6 old girl who accompanied her father on the morning parade. We carried on with our 2 mile diversion so that republicans would not be offended along the 200m stretch of road that apparently is 'theirs' on the way back we where greeted by baying republican crowds as we passed the very edge of thier area, which we had no choice to do on account of thier being a river in the way. Ironically some of those shouting at us are involved in a cross community project that my band is involved in, some of them would have even been in our band hall. My 12th ended with a couple of beers in the band hall and then away home to bed since I was spent. A 14 mile march in that heat was a trail of stamina, many a time I wished for a water cannon to dose me with cold water instead I just has bottles of water which I did not so much drink as throw around myself

So, there are parades other than the Ardoyne that are contentious?

junder wrote: »

Our very existence annoys republicans. In order for the republican vision for a united ireland to be achived the loyal orders and bands need to broken as they are a thread that weaves through the PUL community and binds us together.

You know better than that Junder.
There are many flavours of Republicanism, just as there are many flavours of Unionism.

Maximuspullo. wrote: »

I would assume there would be an uprising in rural Ulster against the invaders if it happened.

Invaders? The native Irish, whose ancestors lived in the area for centuries before Ireland was invaded?
That's a very revealing description of your neighbours.

Jelle1880

Neo Unionist wrote: »

As a matter of fact I don't. Even at their peak the majority of their victims were innocent catholic civilians. And the security services turned a blind eye to a lot of their activities and at times even assisted them.

If they ever behaved the way they did during the troubles in a United Ireland I can't imagine there would be much support for them not to mention that the Irish security forces would be very quick to clamp down on them.

Besides its only a matter of time before the people in the six counties realise that a United Ireland will solve all paramilitary problems. A united Ireland will neutralise the IRA because their objectives will be achieved. The only threat that will remain will be Loyalist paramilitaries whose strength will be only a fraction of the IRAs strength considering the islands demographics. With the combined efforts of the northern police force and Gardaí, the threat will be eliminated quite fast I'd imagine.

Again: very simplistic.

First of all, there are elements in the Republican gangs that don't just want a United Ireland, they just want to hurt 'those Orange bastards'.

So even in a United Ireland I'm sure there will be elements that will be out for violence, from both sides.

You also seem to be under the impression that your average Irishman/woman will support the IRA simply because Loyalists paramilitariers would cause violence. That wasn't the case during The Troubles and I don't think it'll be the case in a UI.

[Jackass]

Loyalist agenda

1/ Antagonize Nationalists / Republicans / All of Southern Ireland.

/agenda

If they don't get to gloat, they riot. If they don't get to rub British rule in Irish faces at every single opportunity, they riot.

Don't take down our fleg! We need to fly it in the face of the 40+% who don't support it 365 days a year - our preference is the only preference! No compromise!

You must let us march through the streets of the Irish to rub in their face a 1,000 year old war! We must humiliate them and show them we are in charge! We must at all times antagonize them!

If we don't get to gloat, if we don't get to permanently throw Britishness in the face of half of the population, we will riot until we can!

junder

[Jackass] wrote: »

Loyalist agenda

1/ Antagonize Nationalists / Republicans / All of Southern Ireland.

/agenda

They're pure scumbags, nothing more. If they don't get to gloat, they riot. If they don't get to rub British rule in Irish faces at every single opportunity, they riot.

Don't take down our fleg! We need to fly it in the face of the 40+% who don't support it 365 days a year - our preference is the only preference! No compromise!

You must let us march through the streets of the Irish to rub in their face a 1,000 year old war! We must humiliate them and show them we are in charge! We must at all times antagonize them!

If we don't get to gloat, if we don't get to permanently throw Britishness in the face of half of the population, we will riot until we can!

So I'm a scumbag then? Do you actually know me, met me in public, know anything about me? or are you just make a sectarian generlization? I believe it's republicans that have been rioting at the arydone shops the last few years, care to comment on that? Or is it just loyalist rioting that's bad

[Jackass]

I've removed that word from my original post, granted that's not appropriate language.

In fairness, given the history of the plantations and thievery of land and treatment of indigenous peoples, I can't see a shred of good spirit in a community who would be anything other than apologetic. Unionists are anything but.

Anywhere else in the world, Australia, Canada, USA there is an apologetic tone to similar past injustice - in the north there's an appetite to gloat and still force it into their face. It's not enough to fu*k them over, it needs to be thrown in their face forever more at every opportunity.

Yes, I think I can safely assume from your stance that you may well be a mean spirited individual who is a direct product of a hate filled, petty, pathetic community.