Improvements that are needed in GAA

Fr Tod Umptious

All this talk to restricting hand passes etc.

Is anyone thinking of the ref ?

They have enough on their plate as it is never mind having to count hand passes as well.

blinding

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

All this talk to restricting hand passes etc.

Is anyone thinking of the ref ?

They have enough on their plate as it is never mind having to count hand passes as well.

If they can’t count to Three they might be a bit brain deficient !

harpsman

keane2097 wrote: »

It's an interesting idea. I'd be interested to see it trialled.

My concern would be that I don't think there's much inherently wrong with handpassing, there's been great goals over the years that had plenty of them!

The problem I'm sure we're all agreed is blanket defences, I worry that any type of restrictions on the team that has the ball will only make the blanket more successful.

In your scheme would you end up with teams of 800m athletes running up and down taking 10 yard kick passes up to and around the Dubs?

Yeah, it might end up looking a bit ugly, but like yourself id love to see these ideas trialled, maybe the 4/5 players in opposition half all the time-dont think either of these are hard to police.

harpsman

blinding wrote: »

If they can’t count to Three they might be a bit brain deficient !

Try reffing a game and keeping track of the number of handpasses

blinding

harpsman wrote: »

Try reffing a game and keeping track of the number of handpasses

1...2 ....3.....Kick forward .

The rugby leagues refs count to six tackles the entire game .:eek:

ArmaniJeanss

blinding wrote: »

1...2 ....3.....Kick forward .

The rugby leagues refs count to six tackles the entire game .:eek:

It's hardly the same thing, the 6 tackles concept is basically the entire focal point/purpose of the game so obviously has to be counted by the ref.
Your 3 handpasses idea is (whether its a good idea or not) basically a sideshow add-on to the current rules, so it's adding to the referees work.

By the way am I right in saying that the ref now would have a triple count in his head during some phases? Player A handpasses to B who handpasses to C, who goes on a 30 metre run during which the ref is counting steps, alternating hops, and remembering that this is handpass #2?
It seems ott to me.

Fr Tod Umptious

What happens if a team in bearing down on goal and the most obvious play to score the goal is a hand pass

But what if it's going to be the 4th hand pass - they can't use it

The player in possession has to do something else.

It's stupid.

MayoAreMagic

blinding wrote: »

1...2 ....3.....Kick forward .

The rugby leagues refs count to six tackles the entire game .:eek:

And while the ref is watching that the inside forwards are being hung by their entrails off the crossbar before the ball is being kicked in!

Forcing the attacking team to kick suits the blanket defence. The goal is to force them to take a poor decision in the final third. If the rules do that for them already, all they have to do is sit and wait. It would actually make the blanket defence more effective.

The idea of making forwards stay in their own half doesn't work either - what happens when their man goes forward? They cant follow him...

One quite simple way would be to give a mark if the ball is kicked from outside the 45 and caught inside the 20. It might also offer an outlet for bigger players to get more gametime, who at the minute are being phased out of intercounty football.

danganabu

harpsman wrote: »

Yeah, it might end up looking a bit ugly, but like yourself

Jaysus thats harsh now harpsman

blinding

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

And while the ref is watching that the inside forwards are being hung by their entrails off the crossbar before the ball is being kicked in!

Forcing the attacking team to kick suits the blanket defence. The goal is to force them to take a poor decision in the final third. If the rules do that for them already, all they have to do is sit and wait. It would actually make the blanket defence more effective.

The idea of making forwards stay in their own half doesn't work either - what happens when their man goes forward? They cant follow him...

One quite simple way would be to give a mark if the ball is kicked from outside the 45 and caught inside the 20. It might also offer an outlet for bigger players to get more gametime, who at the minute are being phased out of intercounty football.

Thats well worth a trial . Something has to be tried . A perfect day for football with two good teams was ruined by the terrible tactics used . The rules need to be tweaked to stop teams doing this .

blinding

Thats well worth a trial . Something has to be tried . A perfect day for football with two good teams ( Mayo v Galway ) was ruined by the terrible tactics used . The rules need to be tweaked to stop teams doing this .

dollar bill

How about this for a rule,

Once the ball enters the zone between the two 45's the only way the ball can leave said zone is with a kick.

Would encourage long kicking

Would encourage fast direct kicking

Would eliminate defensive football as if you had 15 behind the ball when you turned it over you would have no1 to kick it to

Very easy to implement for referees

Fr Tod Umptious

dollar bill wrote: »

How about this for a rule,

Once the ball enters the zone between the two 45's the only way the ball can leave said zone is with a kick.

Would encourage long kicking

Would encourage fast direct kicking

Would eliminate defensive football as if you had 15 behind the ball when you turned it over you would have no1 to kick it to

Very easy to implement for referees

But the defensive team will just mass bodies beyond the 45 expecting a kicked ball.

Can one solo out of the 45 ?

wackokid

The hand pass or in hurling the 'throw' pass should be banned, 100%. No exceptions to the rule. The game is FOOTBALL or HURLING. Use of anything other than a foot or a hurley penalised.
All frees and side lines kicked from the ground.
Jersey pulling anywhere on the field, free to opposition from 25 metre line in front of goal.
That should get rid of the silly black card.

A few more simple, dos and donts would make both games watchable and more enjoyable for players to play.

end of rant

blanch152

WesternZulu wrote: »

Reducing the game to 13 a-side would help open up the game without any changes to the rules imo.

keane2097 wrote: »

You could nominate five players before the match that have to stay in the opposition half and give them those electrified dog collars to make sure they don't stray. Would spice up matches anyway.

A lot of the ideas posted on this thread are not workable because they would complicate the job of the referee and his assistants even more. They already miss most of the off-the-ball late hitting so adding counting handpasses and other extras to their job would make it impossible.

However, these two ideas are interesting. How about combining them?

At the moment, you see 15 defenders in their own half, sometimes within their own 45 with maybe 12 attackers.

If you reduce the teams to 13-a-side with a requirement to keep three in the opposition half, you can only have 9 defenders (plus goalkeeper). Much more difficult to keep an attacking team out as the space to be covered is too much. A team that can attack with accurate kick-passing into space for their forwards to run onto will get the greatest advantage.

MayoAreMagic

blinding wrote: »

Thats well worth a trial . Something has to be tried . A perfect day for football with two good teams ( Mayo v Galway ) was ruined by the terrible tactics used . The rules need to be tweaked to stop teams doing this .

I think it would be a success. The less invasive the better is the way to do these rules I believe.
Well, I would contend that the wind aided a defensive setup, in the sense that it made it difficult to kick over it. Then mayo get a man sent off when they had the wind, and so had to go defensive themselves, so those things probably made it even worse of a spectacle than maybe it might have been normally.

The thing is, those tactics work in salthill or mchale park, with lashing rain or a strong breeze. But they wont work in croke park half as well, so is it a tactic that is going to bring silverware? Although I must say, I would be interested to see how galway v dublin in the championship, on a bad day in salthill would play out. If the wind took away cluxtons kickouts, what would happen then? So potentially you could have a very interesting spectacle also. Maybe we will see it in the super 8s.

pimpmyhat

A 13 yard free for any cynical tackles that occur anywhere on the pitch.

Fr Tod Umptious

pimpmyhat wrote: »

A 13 yard free for any cynical tackles that occur anywhere on the pitch.

Absolutely

Reduce the black card to just a delebrate pull down/cynical tackle and add a 13m free for every black card.

pimpmyhat

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Absolutely

Reduce the black card to just a delebrate pull down/cynical tackle and add a 13m free for every black card.

It may stop the cynicism in the last minute of the game when a team is protecting a 1 point lead. Which is becoming a traite of late

danganabu

pimpmyhat wrote: »

It may stop the cynicism in the last minute of the game when a team is protecting a 1 point lead. Which is becoming a traite of late

Exactly, most people including referees it wouls appear, seem to think that a cynical foul can only occur in front of goal, the truth is the majority of them occur in the other half of the field before the move/counter attack gets going at all, ehich in turns allows the defending them to re-organise and funnel players back, usually all feckin 15 of them.

BonnieSituation

Bigger collars (Rims?) on sliothars and proper standardisation of same to reduce the insane regularity of huge scores.

MayoAreMagic

danganabu wrote: »

Exactly, most people including referees it wouls appear, seem to think that a cynical foul can only occur in front of goal, the truth is the majority of them occur in the other half of the field before the move/counter attack gets going at all, ehich in turns allows the defending them to re-organise and funnel players back, usually all feckin 15 of them.

True. Donegal in '12 were experts at this. If they lost their own kickout, they fouled. If they tuned over a ball in the middle third, they fouled. They rotated their foulers, they got in the way of quick frees while making it look like it was something else - no easy thing to do convincingly. While blocking runners was an art form for them. I remember joe brolly lambasting mayo's fouling the dubs in the 2012 semi, and then championed donegal in the next breath, and just thinking what is he raving about... What donegal were doing that year was in fact light years more advanced than mayo's rather crude efforts against dublin, where they basically fouled guys in point scoring positions, right in front of the posts

I actually think the wording of cynical fouls is holding the rule back. You shouldnt have to pull them to the ground for it to be deemed cynical. It should simply be that any foul if deemed to be carried out in a cynical fashion by the ref should be a black card offence.

dollar bill

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But the defensive team will just mass bodies beyond the 45 expecting a kicked ball.

Can one solo out of the 45 ?

1) Fair point but how quick could they get back inside the line? And how would they break out after winning possession? They'd have no-one to kick it to?

Think it would result in teams trying to get the ball into forwards before the extra defenders have time to get back. A faster,More direct game.

Plus it would force teams to keep attackers inside the 45


2) Another good point,I'm sure the rule would have to go through some troubleshooting i.e Cannot play the ball to yourself,Breaking Ball couldnt count
Same with punched interceptions

I feel it would be a very easy rule to implement for refs

harpsman

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

True. Donegal in '12 were experts at this. If they lost their own kickout, they fouled. If they tuned over a ball in the middle third, they fouled. They rotated their foulers, they got in the way of quick frees while making it look like it was something else - no easy thing to do convincingly. While blocking runners was an art form for them. I remember joe brolly lambasting mayo's fouling the dubs in the 2012 semi, and then championed donegal in the next breath, and just thinking what is he raving about... What donegal were doing that year was in fact light years more advanced than mayo's rather crude efforts against dublin, where they basically fouled guys in point scoring positions, right in front of the posts

I actually think the wording of cynical fouls is holding the rule back. You shouldnt have to pull them to the ground for it to be deemed cynical. It should simply be that any foul if deemed to be carried out in a cynical fashion by the ref should be a black card offence.

Well thats completely untrue. Im not sure if its bitterness cos they beat you in the final/memory failure/lack of knowledge of the game but any way its causing you severe delusions

Bonniedog

Bring back the running kick in the arse. Manly stuff,

Joe Dog

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Bigger collars (Rims?) on sliothars and proper standardisation of same to reduce the insane regularity of huge scores.

Agree that something has to be done about the sliothar, it's way to easy to score in hurling and because of the distance the ball can be hit a lot less hurling happens in games today compared to the 90's.

In the 90's if you got a 65 it was a 50/50 whether there would be a score whereas nowadays it's almost an automatic score.


Some people may like it but personally I think it's taken alot away from the game

1984baby

Granted the sliothars have evolved over the years but is the fact that the players train more and are much more physically stronger nowadays - that this is a bigger factor in them hitting long range points/frees.

Joe Dog

1984baby wrote: »

Granted the sliothars have evolved over the years but is the fact that the players train more and are much more physically stronger nowadays - that this is a bigger factor in them hitting long range points/frees.

Absolutely but the players are now almost too good for the game, same thing is affecting golf where they will eventually have to scale back the golf ball in professional golf.

ciarriaithuaidh

harpsman wrote: »

Well thats completely untrue. Im not sure if its bitterness cos they beat you in the final/memory failure/lack of knowledge of the game but any way its causing you severe delusions

Much as I have to admit Mayo fans can be off-putting to me with their persecution complex, that's a spot on comment from this particular Mayo poster in my view and anybody honest would admit that.
Donegal were the best team in 2012 and deserved their All Ireland. Part of why they got their was their smart treading of the boundaries of the rules. Every team that has won the AI in the last 10 years has been similar so this isn't a unique phenomenon.

On the thread title in general, I think many posters have alluded to simialr things in some way, but IMO we certainly need a penalty along the same lines as the 50m penalty in AFL in Gaelic Football. There was a proposal to bring in a 30m penalty for what I would generally term "acting the b*llocks" on an opposition free a few years back and it should have been brought in.

MayoAreMagic

harpsman wrote: »

Well thats completely untrue. Im not sure if its bitterness cos they beat you in the final/memory failure/lack of knowledge of the game but any way its causing you severe delusions

I'm not finding fault with them harpsman. All credit to them, it was intelligent play. They didn't actually do that much of it in the final tbh, they just deserved to win on the day, and again all credit to them for that also. I don't think you can say that is bitterness.

But I do believe that mcguinness had them fouling when they lost a kickout or turnover, to prevent them getting caught when coming out of their defensive shape. If you think about it, those are the only times when they might have bodies committed forward and not have possession, so eliminating those eliminate a high number of potential goal chances. As I said, it is smart play, and if anything I think it deserves a bit of praise.

blanch152

harpsman wrote: »

Well thats completely untrue. Im not sure if its bitterness cos they beat you in the final/memory failure/lack of knowledge of the game but any way its causing you severe delusions

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Much as I have to admit Mayo fans can be off-putting to me with their persecution complex, that's a spot on comment from this particular Mayo poster in my view and anybody honest would admit that.
Donegal were the best team in 2012 and deserved their All Ireland. Part of why they got their was their smart treading of the boundaries of the rules.

To a certain extent I agree with you both. Mayo pre-2012 were naive and got caught by clever play on the borderline by Donegal.

However, since then, Mayo have been masters of it. It is only in the last few months that we have seen the focus on the likes of the O'Connor brothers and the way they cynically play the game. That has been a part of the Mayo game since they lost to Donegal, unfortunately for them it hasn't worked.

MayoAreMagic

blanch152 wrote: »

To a certain extent I agree with you both. Mayo pre-2012 were naive and got caught by clever play on the borderline by Donegal.

However, since then, Mayo have been masters of it. It is only in the last few months that we have seen the focus on the likes of the O'Connor brothers and the way they cynically play the game. That has been a part of the Mayo game since they lost to Donegal, unfortunately for them it hasn't worked.

Ah, they were naive enough in 2012 also tbh. Their naive implementation of cynical fouling against the dubs that year was in fact counter productive. They were fouling fellas where a score was guaranteed from a dead ball but from play the guy was actually om their weak side under pressure and not a great shooter. They were losing kickouts and not fouling there and then, but instead fouling when they got to the D. Crazy stuff. They have definitely improved since then on that front and long may it continue. As you say, it hasnt been enough to match the eventual winners since.
As for the oconnors, well throwing elbows isnt cynical, its just stupid. They would be better if they took example from those that actually have won things and operated under the radar a bit more. Id argue its the guys who get away with it are the real masters of it.

harpsman

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I'm not finding fault with them harpsman. All credit to them, it was intelligent play. They didn't actually do that much of it in the final tbh, they just deserved to win on the day, and again all credit to them for that also. I don't think you can say that is bitterness.

But I do believe that mcguinness had them fouling when they lost a kickout or turnover, to prevent them getting caught when coming out of their defensive shape. If you think about it, those are the only times when they might have bodies committed forward and not have possession, so eliminating those eliminate a high number of potential goal chances. As I said, it is smart play, and if anything I think it deserves a bit of praise.

Maybe I'll watch it back and see if you're right. I would wonder why Donegal conceded late goals against Kerry and Cork, and nearly against Tyrone if they were such good tactical foulers.


But my recollection of it is that Mayo were cynical with alot of late and high hits. Not that i blame Mayo for that-they werent cynical enough in plenty of finals

robbiezero

Deleted User wrote: »

I posted this in the hurling thread about the goalpost issue i have noticed and i would like to get a broad spectrum of opinion across the board on it and other issues. I think pressure needs to be put on the association to have every match officiated to the same standard quality and its not just refeering but something like the goalposts could prove the difference between a goal or point or nothing depending on where your playing and its something needs to be looked at. There are many other issues too

Far more televised games needed. The Joe McDonagh cup is largely among counties where hurling is the second sport to football and are trying to promote interest in hurling and yet not a single game has been televised yet.
Two massive weekends of GAA just gone by yet nothing on TV on either Saturday, Its almost like the GAA doesn't want to get in the way of people watching rugby and soccer.

BarryD2

Easy, peasy. Break up 'Dublin' into 4 teams as per:

https://www.integratingdublin.ie/about/area.html

All local authorities and equivalent to counties in terms of population elsewhere, with possible exception of Dublin City. But sure they can be the whipping boys

danganabu

Joe Dog wrote: »

Agree that something has to be done about the sliothar, it's way to easy to score in hurling and because of the distance the ball can be hit a lot less hurling happens in games today compared to the 90's.

In the 90's if you got a 65 it was a 50/50 whether there would be a score whereas nowadays it's almost an automatic score.


Some people may like it but personally I think it's taken alot away from the game

I was actually thinking about this yesterday on my way home from Tom Semples fine field and I actually think its a positive thing and it removes the cynical fouling from the game because there is no such thing as a 'safe' free to givew away.

What reminded of it was in yesterdays game when Tipp were rampant and had Cork on the ropes, Cork gave away a free on the Tipp 45 and the Cork lad in front of me commented that it was a 'good' free to concede and break up the play but Jason Forde nailed the free and it was a huge lift to Tipp at the time, anything that discourages cynical and systematic fouling ( I'm not for a second suggesting that was what Cork did btw) has to be a good thing.

0byme75341jo28

The steps rule needs a revamp. Either to give it a time limit or a distance limit, at the moment (especially in hurling) nearly every possession is overcarried yet it's only implemented when it suits the referree. Obviously this adds to the spectacle of the game but it's purely unenforceable in it's current format, and what's the point in having rules if they're not enforced?

nice_guy80

Alexzander Glamorous Typhoid wrote: »

The steps rule needs a revamp. Either to give it a time limit or a distance limit, at the moment (especially in hurling) nearly every possession is overcarried yet it's only implemented when it suits the referree. Obviously this adds to the spectacle of the game but it's purely unenforceable in it's current format, and what's the point in having rules if they're not enforced?

Carrying the ball in your hand while bouncing it should also be prohibited

0byme75341jo28

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Carrying the ball in your hand while bouncing it should also be prohibited

What do you mean? Like tapping it off the hurley? Or do you mean football? Sorry this has me completely flummoxed...

TheRiverman

The handpass in football has to be changed.The abuse of it in all games nowadays is awful.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

0byme75341jo28

Patww79 wrote: »

Regarding the McDonagh, would TG4 show it if they were allowed?

Surely the would. It's mind boggling that it isn't televised, the more GAA on free-to-air the better

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

BonnieSituation

TheRiverman wrote: »

The handpass in football has to be changed.The abuse of it in all games nowadays is awful.

Really?

I'd be taking the throw out of hurling first.

Walter Walsh had a doozy at the weekend right under the refs nose. Ridiculous.

Joe Dog

danganabu wrote: »

I was actually thinking about this yesterday on my way home from Tom Semples fine field and I actually think its a positive thing and it removes the cynical fouling from the game because there is no such thing as a 'safe' free to givew away.

What reminded of it was in yesterdays game when Tipp were rampant and had Cork on the ropes, Cork gave away a free on the Tipp 45 and the Cork lad in front of me commented that it was a 'good' free to concede and break up the play but Jason Forde nailed the free and it was a huge lift to Tipp at the time, anything that discourages cynical and systematic fouling ( I'm not for a second suggesting that was what Cork did btw) has to be a good thing.

It's too easy to score from play though, I just feel there is too little hurling being played within the game these days and the skill of scoring in hurling has somewhat reduced due to it being so easy.

Cynical fouling could easily be solved by simply moving the ball up 30 metres for a cynical foul.It's what should have been introduced instead of the black card in football.

djPSB

Number of games at intercounty level needs to be reduced.

Especially given new round Robin format of the championship.

FBD/Walsh Cup equivalents should be got ridden off.

Number of League games should be restricted to 6/7 including latter stages.

As things stand, the intercounty games are taking up January to the end of August with a small gap in April. This needs to be condensed.

Also, too many games amongst the same teams is going to eventually dilute the excitement of intercounty games. For example, Galway hurlers could potentially play Kilkenny or another Leinster team 7 times in one season based on current formats.

MayoAreMagic

harpsman wrote: »

Maybe I'll watch it back and see if you're right. I would wonder why Donegal conceded late goals against Kerry and Cork, and nearly against Tyrone if they were such good tactical foulers.


But my recollection of it is that Mayo were cynical with alot of late and high hits. Not that i blame Mayo for that-they werent cynical enough in plenty of finals

I recall the cork goal coming from a high ball and just individual brilliance from o'neill with two or three men around him.
Re kerry, well kerry were a serious attacking outfit, some times it is hard to stop a team littered with superb players on every occasion. But id argue your point misses the bigger picture in the sense that donegal won those games. They may have conceded late, but more pertinently they conceded less.
Again, not a criticism, merely trying to clarify my opinion for you. I think donegal were far more tactically developed at the time than they are credited with. They were like kerry, doing it but getting away with it which is a skill in itself. It wasnt until mayo and the dubs tore the ar*e out of it that the gaa decided to act with the bc rules.

Re mayo, well i remember the keegan one but to be honest, a neck high tackle from a position where mcglynn was probably going to chip it over the bar isnt really a smart move in my book. All you are 'gaining' is a yellow card. And whatever chance you had of a defender maybe kicking it wide, with murphy and mcfadden knocking around on the dead ball it wasnt going anywhere but over the bar. Is that cynical or stupid?

Anyway we are probably going off topic a bit so i will leave it there.

nice_guy80

Alexzander Glamorous Typhoid wrote: »

What do you mean? Like tapping it off the hurley? Or do you mean football? Sorry this has me completely flummoxed...

In football
Players take 2/3 steps with the ball in their hand before they perform the bounce. Ciaran Kilkenny and most Dublin players are masters at it
It's a basketball style dribble

harpsman

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I recall the cork goal coming from a high ball and just individual brilliance from o'neill with two or three men around him.
Re kerry, well kerry were a serious attacking outfit, some times it is hard to stop a team littered with superb players on every occasion. But id argue your point misses the bigger picture in the sense that donegal won those games. They may have conceded late, but more pertinently they conceded less.
Again, not a criticism, merely trying to clarify my opinion for you. I think donegal were far more tactically developed at the time than they are credited with. They were like kerry, doing it but getting away with it which is a skill in itself. It wasnt until mayo and the dubs tore the ar*e out of it that the gaa decided to act with the bc rules.

Re mayo, well i remember the keegan one but to be honest, a neck high tackle from a position where mcglynn was probably going to chip it over the bar isnt really a smart move in my book. All you are 'gaining' is a yellow card. And whatever chance you had of a defender maybe kicking it wide, with murphy and mcfadden knocking around on the dead ball it wasnt going anywhere but over the bar. Is that cynical or stupid?

Anyway we are probably going off topic a bit so i will leave it there.

I do see your point MAM-sorry, I didnt mean it personally- Donegal were probably more "streetwise" than Mayo in 12. Its just I didnt remember that much cynical fouling (green and gold tinted glasses) .But as you say lets move on.


(ps Keegan one was on Mark McHugh-McGuinness was still moaning about it a year later)