Receiving UK stations in the Republic

dpat1l

Hi, since the good weather started last week, my Saorview box (NordMende) keeps sending the message that "The following stations are not available: No Signal. Would you like to delete them now", and the list is all the BBCs, ITVs and a few extras that I can't remember... Thing is that the aerial is only in the attic and not outside like everyone seems to recommend. I am in the north east, just outside of Drogheda in louth, and I'm assuming the aerial was pointed in the general direction of either Clermont Carn or Kilkeel.

Tonight I took it upon myself to mount the aerial outside and point it towards Kilkeel to see if I can save myself a but of money on buying a box for the UK FTA. But since I put it outside, all I can receive is the 8 Irish channels plus radio. No UK whatsoever which is odd since I got some sort of reeption when it was inside.

The aerial is a Wideband purchased from Argos for €55 about 3 years ago. It is pointed roughly between 30 to 40 degrees east of north to reach Kilkeel from my area.

Can someone please shed some light on my situation, and maybe you can offer some help and advice too!

Many thanks, David

EDIT: Okay, having read what you lot have said I've given up hope and think I;ll just buy a dish..... but on a last ditch attempt, and the fact it's cheaper than the alternative, do you think this aerial may be any benefit and might it provide any better signal since it is grouped?

Peter Rhea

The mounting cradle (C-shaped piece) should straddle the joint in the boom, or else just remove it & end-mount the aerial. (Not that the supplied attic mounting kit will cope for long outside anyway.)

Did you only get the UK channels since the good weather started? Probably just a result of anomalous propagation due to atmospheric conditions. That's not to say you wouldn't find a spot where a constant signal can be received but, if you use that aerial & mounting, try to put it in a place where it won't come down on someone's head on a windy day.

watty

It's not a very robust aerial, really only durable in the attic.

It's also equivalent to about 12 element "traditional" Yagi TV Aerial. Where you are you need 2 or 4 SR18 (dual or quad mounted with one or three combiner splitters each with IDENTICAL 0.5m to 1.5m of cable feed from aerials).

Also you need about 45' / 15m height minimum, low loss "satellite" type cable and a filtered mast pre-amp for the desired group about 1.5m away from aerial, but ONLY enough gain to be just about 3dB more than the loss in the coax to the TV or main distribution amp.

Unless you are on a very exposed high spot that aerial will never give reliable N.I. Reception there.

whitebriar

As it's wideband,there's a good chance your visiting channels could have been from anywhere.
Check the receiver install menu for the channel number they came in on.

Have any of your nearby neighbours had UK tv via an aerial before? Have a look at theirs.
Unless you are in a good reception area,I'd go down the dish route for UK.

dpat1l

I moved the aerial slightly more towards East today and got mixed results... I am using satellite type coax from the aerial to a signal boosting splitter in the attic to each TV (+6dB). When I came downstairs and checked turned on the decoder, it yet again gave me a list of all the TV stations that were no longer available, and it was all of the stations transmitted at Kilkeel, yet I could not view them! When I retuned, they were gone again, but on the installation menu, it said:

"CH45
Quality 0%
Strength 44%" and it flickered up and down from there.

Needless to say, I'm a bit confused as to how it displayed every station, yet could not give 1 picture or even crackle of sound.

Peter Rhea

It's a weak signal problem, pure & simple. The receiver managed to grab the EPG data at some point.

A first step to improving things would be to mount the aerial higher but, before you do anything, you must bear in mind that Kilkeel is only a local relay site with less than 1/300th the power of Clermont Carn, intended to serve that part of the Co. Down coast. Drogheda is well away from its protected service area.

whitebriar

dpat1l wrote: »

I moved the aerial slightly more towards East today and got mixed results... I am using satellite type coax from the aerial to a signal boosting splitter in the attic to each TV (+6dB). When I came downstairs and checked turned on the decoder, it yet again gave me a list of all the TV stations that were no longer available, and it was all of the stations transmitted at Kilkeel, yet I could not view them! When I retuned, they were gone again, but on the installation menu, it said:

"CH45
Quality 0%
Strength 44%" and it flickered up and down from there.

Needless to say, I'm a bit confused as to how it displayed every station, yet could not give 1 picture or even crackle of sound.

You're not doing it right.
You need to have someone retuning that decoder with each tiny turn you make
You might have passed a reliable signal point in one of your turns and you'll never know.
That's where your tuner might have grabbed the epg data.You will have had enough signal at that point to sustain a picture.
But you lost it as you turned the aerial right by before you stopped and checked.

So do it again,this time tiny turns,with a helper checking one of the kilkeel muxes for you on every turn.
Painstaking yes,but if you really want to know,that's what to do.

Its not a guarantee of a good signal if you find the sweet spot,but at least you'll know.
Upon each turn,give the tuner a minute,just to let it have a chance to lock onto a picture if it can

Peter Rhea

It isn't a satellite dish they're aligning. 'Tiny turns' are of no benefit.

They'd be better off moving the whole thing to a different location, preferably higher up.

whitebriar

Actually they are of benefit to be fair,there might be only a few inches in it there for all we know not having seen the terrain.
Besides we don't know how much the op is turning that aerial.
Let me clarify...If the op can remember the previous and new position after his last try,then if that's 6 inches,then go an inch at a time with the other person trying the receiver each time.

*That* while painstaking *shouldn't* take too long.
I think its better too for to be encouraging someone with an obvious interest in this to try the above if they want to.
Its not going to do someone out of a dish sake as I'll bet the op would try install that too by the sounds of things.
If they need to get a professional in,if it doesn't work out they will

Peter Rhea

I would think an aerial like that would have a beamwidth of 30-40 degrees when vertically polarised. That's 15-20 degrees either side of peak gain, where you're still getting at least half of peak gain.

If the OP still wants to tinker, then get the aerial high up & clear of any obstructions. Get a signal display on screen & watch for best quality. It shouldn't be a painstaking process unless you make it so yourself, as the equipment you're using doesn't allow any kind of 'painstaking' accuracy.

whitebriar

Mightn't be painstaking for you or me but it might be for the Op.
Unless I was there,I couldn't comment on how wide or narrow the kilkeel beam would be at the Op's location.
That will depend on the topography.

It is better to understand though talking in inches of movement rather than degrees.

100% agree obviously though on having a good look around and as far as practical for the op,choosing as un obstructed a view as possible,including some height.

Two examples local to me,where one guy has the aerial on a garden shed10 metres from the house,with the cable buried in an inch waterpipe(not for water lol) in the garden.
Another has theirs half way up a tree.

There may be lots of innovative ways to get it to work,but then the op might want the hassle free sat option.
I think we'd all be advising that at a minimum as a back up anyway.

No harm in encouraging the op to experiment further though.That's all part of the craic and a bonus if he gets a result.

Peter Rhea

whitebriar wrote: »

,I couldn't comment on how wide or narrow the kilkeel beam would be at the Op's location.
That will depend on the topography.

Where are you getting this 'wide or narrow beam' stuff from? The width of the 'beam' or whatever way you want to refer to it, will depend on the directionality of the receiving aerial.

Effects of topography are better overcome by moving the whole aerial to a different location.

dpat1l

Yet again I have EPG station names, no info and no picture, but I do know for definite that is is coming in on Ch45 after a Manual Scan... but the numbers don't match with uk free tv.... It says:

250 BBC ONE Wales
251 BBC TWO Wales
252 BBC THREE
253 BBC FOUR
254 CBBC Channel
255 CBeebies
256 BBC News
257 BBC Parliament
258 BBC Red Button
259 BBC RB 301
260 302

So, it is coming from Wales with a North Facing V aerial from Tullyallen... Stumped...

marno21

dpat1l wrote: »

Yet again I have EPG station names, no info and no picture, but I do know for definite that is is coming in on Ch45 after a Manual Scan... but the numbers don't match with uk free tv.... It says:

250 BBC ONE Wales
251 BBC TWO Wales
252 BBC THREE
253 BBC FOUR
254 CBBC Channel
255 CBeebies
256 BBC News
257 BBC Parliament
258 BBC Red Button
259 BBC RB 301
260 302

So, it is coming from Wales with a North Facing V aerial from Tullyallen... Stumped...

The most likely candidate there is Moel y Parc in Wales I would imagine. Although it is 90 degrees off and opposite polarisation, the current atmospheric conditions would greatly strengthen any signals coming across the Irish sea.

whitebriar

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Where are you getting this 'wide or narrow beam' stuff from? The width of the 'beam' or whatever way you want to refer to it, will depend on the directionality of the receiving aerial.

Effects of topography are better overcome by moving the whole aerial to a different location.

Frankly,having lived near a small hill all my life,I can confirm that your comment on directionality while true it does vary,hence my comment on beam widths.
Topography definitely does affect the width of the received beam.
Whatever way you direct your aerial,you only have whatever gets through to your location available.
Add buildings,tree's,sections of fields near you that rise etc and you get that chopped goodo.

Here for example for saorview Arklow,its very wide,because its so near obviously with no obstruction.
Arfo and preseli,vary enormously depending on location .
I hope this is helpful to the op.

Regarding receiving Wales in Louth/meath area said upthread,will the receiver tech menu say what channel?
It could be Llandonna either.

Peter Rhea

dpat1l wrote: »

So, it is coming from Wales with a North Facing V aerial from Tullyallen... Stumped...

Just freak propagation. Isn't that to the west of Drogheda? Probably not an area that would get Kilkeel anyway, even without the interference from Wales.

Peter Rhea

whitebriar wrote: »

. . . Here for example for saorview Arklow,its very wide,because its so near obviously with no obstruction.
Arfo and preseli,vary enormously depending on location .

A weak signal will be perceived as a narrower 'beam', as the drop in level caused by panning the aerial will have more dramatic effects, especially with the 'all or nothing' nature of digital signals. And you'd most likely be using a high-gain aerial that has a narrower beamwidth to begin with.

whitebriar

Peter Rhea wrote: »

A weak signal will be perceived as a narrower 'beam', as the drop in level caused by panning the aerial will have more dramatic effects, especially with the 'all or nothing' nature of digital signals. And you'd most likely be using a high-gain aerial that has a narrower beamwidth to begin with.

Oh I agree with you mostly Peter,except I'd put it differently the beam is either there or not and the width of it at the location depends on what's stopping it,either topography or sheer way out of even unintended coverage area weakness .
Fluke and luck helps with the latter.

And yes the welsh reception up there is tropspheric ducting/high pressure weather related.
I'm just curious which transmitter.
I think a poster in East Down used have llandonna after a fair effort high up near the coast there.
There's no way a reliable signal for that would be got in Louth Meath.

To the op,we don'know your location but my advice is to see if any of your neighbours had NI tv before the satellite era and fta (not long ago) and what they used and which transmitter.
If there's none,you probably are on a hiding to nothing sadly.
Otherwise though,I hope you enjoy experimenting and that it bears fruit.
Best of luck.

Peter Rhea

They won't get anything useful from NI at that location with that aerial. Guaranteed.

whitebriar

Peter Rhea wrote: »

They won't get anything useful from NI at that location with that aerial. Guaranteed.

I think you might be right but I wouldn't say guaranteed as neither of us know the actual location.
But yeah,better aerial,better height via trial and error etc equals better results

I know a house in Dalkey with good kilkeel with just a grid aerial incidentally which is a good example of flukey unintended reception for that tx,albeit with a sea view towards it.

Peter Rhea

whitebriar wrote: »

. . . neither of us know the actual location.

There's a Tullyallen near Mellifont Abbey. Saorview checker recommends looking south too: Three Rock or Kippure rather than Clermont.

whitebriar

Know as in,standing on a roof looking around,/knowing what the neighbours used do before satellite etc.

Peter Rhea

Standing on the roof, you will see the same hills to the north as you see on the map. Probably a lot of MMDS aerials too.

whitebriar

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Standing on the roof, you will see the same hills to the north as you see on the map. Probably a lot of MMDS aerials too.

You won't see the gaps in them,or by lack of experimentation you wouldn't see something like the Divis reception near Rathnew co wicklow either.
Maps are far from the be all and end all in this.

dpat1l

Successful attempt today - I think... I found a different signal booster hiding in the attic and plugged it straight to the aerial, and then ran it to each cable supplying each room and got Quality 25% and Level 59%. I ran a Manual Scan on CH 45 and got the BBCs - they are definitely usable - picture crackles every now and then but it's better than nothing! But when I ran an Auto Scan, it scanned all channels from 21 through 69 and still it could only pick up BBCs on Ch45 and RTÉs on Ch52... If I'm not mistaken, doesn't that mean I'm picking one Mux from Kilkeel?

Peter Rhea

whitebriar wrote: »

. . . you wouldn't see something like the Divis reception near Rathnew co wicklow either.

Nobody is getting useful Divis reception anywhere in Wicklow, unless maybe up at Kippure, if they wanted.

dpat1l wrote: »

. . . it scanned all channels from 21 through 69 and still it could only pick up BBCs on Ch45 and RTÉs on Ch52... If I'm not mistaken, doesn't that mean I'm picking one Mux from Kilkeel?

Is it BBC NI or Wales?

whitebriar

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Nobody is getting useful Divis reception anywhere in Wicklow, unless maybe up at Kippure.

That's incorrect,there are people near Rathnew that were using Divis for years,there's even mention on this forum I think about it,but it is a fact.

dpat1l

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Nobody is getting useful Divis reception anywhere in Wicklow, unless maybe up at Kippure, if they wanted.



Is it BBC NI or Wales?

Sorry, It's BBC NI... Should've specified

Peter Rhea

whitebriar wrote: »

. . . there are people near Rathnew that were using Divis for years,there's even mention on this forum I think about it,but it is a fact.

They won't be getting reliable Freeview from Divis. That's also a fact.

dpat1l wrote: »

Sorry, It's BBC NI... Should've specified

Must be Kilkeel then. A weak signal on 1 mux. isn't much use though & also bear in mind the possibility of temporary enhancement.

Might be worth changing to horizontal pol. & giving Divis a go, just for a look.

whitebriar

dpat1l wrote: »

Sorry, It's BBC NI... Should've specified

Great news,hope it holds for you,at least its a few extra channels and a bit of a pay off for your effort.
See how it goes anyway and maybe you might run with a better aerial at some point in the future,if it holds.
A group B would be better and should be pulling in the other psb mux.
I doubt you'd see the hd mux.

Peters advice on aerial placement and type and the better height would come into play if you ever want to spend a bit more on this,

whitebriar

Peter Rhea wrote: »

They won't be getting reliable Freeview from Divis. That's also a fact

I cant answer that,as I haven't been up there since dso or given it a thought since this thread.They used have freeview from Divis at the lower powers though and reliable analog.
So no,I can't agree that your comment is a fact.
The theory is right,have analog,will have high power digital,unless there's co channel.
Various saorview and other UK freeview co channeling would probably muck some muxes up there alright but its fascinating anyway.Never rule anything out before trying if one has the time and interest is my motto.

dpat1l

whitebriar wrote: »

The theory is right,have analog,will have high power digital,unless there's co channel.

We moved into this house 9 years ago and could receive stations from NI... I don't know where from (we just poked and moved the aerial in the attic 'til we got a picture) but we had UTV and Channel 4 and then the Irish stations RTÉ One, Two and TV3... never could get TG4. At this stage, I don't even know if it's relevant... I just thought it might be I'll give Divis a try this evening and see what happens, just out of curiosity

dpat1l

Oh! One last quick question: What exactly is the difference between H Pol. and V Pol... I mean, I know physically how to move the aerial, and know that it is specified for each transmitter to stop crossover, but what is the actual difference in the way that it is transmitted?

Peter Rhea

dpat1l wrote: »

We moved into this house 9 years ago and could receive stations from NI...

'Receive' as in something of sufficient quality that you would actually want to sit down & watch?

dpat1l wrote: »

. . . what is the actual difference in the way that it is transmitted?

Just the orientation of the transmitting aerial's elements, same as your receiving aerial.

dpat1l

Peter Rhea wrote: »

'Receive' as in something of sufficient quality that you would actually want to sit down & watch?

Yep! Only reason I know is that You've Been Framed used to be on UTV when my sister was younger, and that was before we had had Sky...

whitebriar

Interesting.
Lets see what you see if anything of Divis.

Keep a careful note of where your aerial is pointed now if you need to return it there.

You know how to point you aerial horizontally polarized?

Rods flat as opposed to upright .

dpat1l

Yeah, i know how to horizontally polarize it... I did have to check last week to make sure, but I know the difference...

I'm not holding up much hope for Divis, since Cooley is a bit in the way Kilkeel was just far enough east to avoid them. But it's worth a try, it won't cause any harm to try!

Peter Rhea

dpat1l wrote: »

Yep! Only reason I know is that You've Been Framed used to be on UTV when my sister was younger, and that was before we had had Sky...

So you got the BBC 1,2, UTV & Channel 4, along with RTE & TV3? That's all you got presumably?

dpat1l

Well, I'm not really sure... We didn't use it for long since we got Sky after that...If you think it's any use, tvtrade has a K Group aerial for €9.99.... I think K would be better because that way I can try both Divis and Kilkeel?

Peter Rhea

Don't suppose you remember if there was ever an outdoor aerial like one of these on the house?

I'd stick with the aerial you have for 'investigative' purposes. Only get a better one if you think there is something there worth working with.

dpat1l

In the beginning we got the Irish stations on a pair of rabbits ears stuck in a NE facing window, then we used an old grid type just sitting in the attic and then we got watchable UK stations.... Then we got Sky and forgot about the whole thing, but now we're trying to get it in 2 bedrooms with the aerial in the photos ... Hmmm, there's a disused aerial like the one you posted on the grandmothers house... Might be of use? Would it be more of a benefit that a K group contract aerial? Thanks

The Cush

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Don't suppose you remember if there was ever an outdoor aerial like one of these on the house?

dpat1l wrote: »

Hmmm, there's a disused aerial like the one you posted on the grandmothers house... Might be of use? Would it be more of a benefit that a K group contract aerial?

No, it's an MMDS aerial for UPC's subscription "wireless cable" service . It's of no use for Saorview/Freeview reception - different frequency range.

dpat1l

Thanks! So, go ahead with the K contract aerial? Either way, it's going to be cheaper that a FTA decoder

Peter Rhea

I wouldn't bother with any kind of 10-element contract aerial. It won't do any better than what you have.

dpat1l

Going (much) higher isn't an option though I don't know what else to do bar get a dish, and I was trying to avoid that to the best of my ability

The Cush

dpat1l wrote: »

Going (much) higher isn't an option though

Is a chimney install possible?

dpat1l

Doubt I'd be allowed "put a show on the roof" haha I'll have a look tomorrow and see where might be better

Ronnie Raygun

Peter Rhea wrote: »

There's a Tullyallen near Mellifont Abbey. Saorview checker recommends looking south too: Three Rock or Kippure rather than Clermont.

It might be enlightening for the OP to check their exact location (drag the marker) on the Saorview map & see which transmitter is recommended.

Peter Rhea

dpat1l wrote: »

then we used an old grid type just sitting in the attic and then we got watchable UK stations....

There's a house near me where, a couple of years back, I could get a 'watchable' BBC 2 analogue picture from Brougher Mtn. with a small outdoor aerial sitting on an upstairs window sill. (Only BBC 2 was good enough to watch, no matter where I put the aerial.) Teletext was unusable though, which didn't bode well for future digital reception so, out of curiosity I checked back after DSO, & the same tv didn't register even a hint of a signal on the same UHF channel.

Could get a weak signal in the attic, but not usable. This was only a bit of messing around on my part though & not a serious attempt at providing useful tv reception.

dpat1l

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

It might be enlightening for the OP to check their exact location (drag the marker) on the Saorview map & see which transmitter is recommended.

Saorview is fine as far as I'm concerned... I've never had a problem receiving it from the North... even just after DSO, it was getting perfect signal from Clermont, and that was without us trying to point it the right way!

It's just the Freeview that is the problem...

Ronnie Raygun

I just thought maybe the Saorview checker could be used as a kind of rough proxy for Freeview. It would be a good sign if they recommend Clermont Carn for your location, in preference to Three Rock or Kippure.