Restricted Breeds and crosses - DNA test?

dashiell hammett

So here's the problem, we have a massive dog that looks like he should be a restricted breed but we really don't have any concrete proof of whats in his breeding, and we are worried about the dog warden and the new on the spot fines.

There are no papers for the parents which are probably both crosses, the mother looks like a Belgian Shepherd and the father is supposed to be a Wolf (looks it) but he's probably a Czech Wolf Dog or CWD cross.

Now my wife is really worried about the dog warden because we don't muzzle him out on walks on the beach and while we see very few people (in the winter none) its a worry we'd prefer not to have. I realize he looks scary so he goes on the lead if we meet anyone. I also keep to the beach simply because its possible to see if there is anyone else around and save bumping into anyone. He's got his own large secure run at home and is chipped.

Now the question is will a dog DNA test prove anything, its likely to shout German Shepherd if the father was a Czech Wolf and would it be to our advantage to have one done? Looking at one of the online tests I couldn't find Carpathian Wolf (unlikely I know) or Czech Wolf Dog as part of the results.

At what point does a restricted breed cross no longer be a restricted breed, or is a small percentage of a restricted breed in the dogs DNA make it a restricted breed?

The best result might be some proof that we have a Czech Wolf Dog x Belgian Shepherd and the worst would show we have GSD x crossed with a GSD x so I'm not totally sure its going to help?

Also what proof does the Dog Warden use of a dog being a restricted breed?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Rommie

To be honest OP, unless he looks distinctly like a german shepherd, you can pretty much tell the warden he's whatever you want and without proof, the warden can't do anything about it. Any chance you could post a photo of him?

Tranceypoo

Rommie wrote: »

To be honest OP, unless he looks distinctly like a german shepherd, you can pretty much tell the warden he's whatever you want and without proof, the warden can't do anything about it. Any chance you could post a photo of him?

+1 the posting of a picture, would love to see him.

I wouldn't worry too much in my experience of dog wardens they are far from being experts on dog behaviour or breeds or most things canine really (that's just my experience of course!)

dashiell hammett

I'll see if I can find a picture, I'm just "upgrading" to windows 8 and have all my recent pictures on another drive so I'll sort one out, might even go and take a new one.

Just discovered my wife put Alsatian x as the breed so thats what the dog warden will be going by no matter what he looks like, so I think that needs changing, will buy a new licence and just put mongrel down as breed.

FoxyVixen

Not sure how great these DNA tests are though. Can't they be hit and miss with breed specifics?

Wibbs

In Ireland the chances of being part wolf are about nil IMH. Czech or Saarloos wolfdog maybe, but they're as rare as hens teeth here. More likely a husky cross of some nature which account for the vast vast majority of so called "wolves" out there and this is a good thing. On the DNA front even definitively calling wolf from dog can be tricky, for a mixed breed I'd say that would be even harder to find Alsatian in the mix?

dashiell hammett

So as requested, taken back in March so still in full winter coat, 50% of that or more has come out in the comb since.



To give an idea of scale he's 28 inches at the shoulder.

fatmammycat

He's very beautiful, but he looks like a long haired GSD to me.

FoxyVixen

At a push it could be a German Shephard crossed with a Belgian Shephard Dog (Groenendael).

But looks fairly like a German Shepard to me, same conformation and structure anyways.

dashiell hammett

fatmammycat wrote: »

He's very beautiful, but he looks like a long haired GSD to me.

I can't disagree with you because that's the problem, but neither parent looks a bit like a GSD. So you can see why we thought about the DNA test, we can't prove he's not a GSD anymore than we can disprove the sire is a Wolf.

dashiell hammett

FoxyVixen wrote: »

At a push it could be a German Shephard crossed with a Belgian Shephard Dog (Groenendael).

But looks fairly like a German Shepard to me, same conformation and structure anyways.

A surprising number of people have asked me if he's a Belgian Shepherd :eek:, my answer from now on will be "if only"

DBB

dashiell hammett wrote: »

A surprising number of people have asked if he's a Belgian Shepherd :eek:, my answer from now on will be "if only"

I've a black, long haired GSD, and am often asked if she's a Groenendahl (including by the dog warden). However, and to my eye 100% the case with your fella too, my dog is hugely bigger than any BSD, in height, weight, and bone. The BSD (all types) are rather fine-boned, slender, lightly built dogs, relative to the GSD.
People who know GSDs can immediately spot what my dog is, and I'd say that accounts for maybe 1 person in every 10!
Your dog, to my eye, is very big boned, indeed possibly bigger boned than you'd expect a GSD to be! He is lovely! I could be convinced that there's a giant breed in there somewhere. But just looking at his face and general shape, he's very GSDish!
I'm inclined to think that in reality, if a dog warden was to prosecute an owner for having an RB cross, it doesn't really matter what the owner thinks it is... Chances are the judge would take the dog warden's opinion as "expert" testimony (make of that what you will). It'd be up to the owner to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it's not.

PS I don't suppose there's a chance of pics of his parents?!

Wibbs

Lovely doggie Maybe a long haired Belgian shepherd? Don't see any wolfdog in him anyway. He's a very solid build, they're generally narrower and with longer legs and longer snouts. They also have "wild" colouring to the fur, where the individual strands of hair can have more than one pigment, rare among other domestic breeds, they also have a distinctive face mask.

DBB wrote:

I'm inclined to think that in reality, if a dog warden was to prosecute an owner for having an RB cross, it doesn't really matter what the owner thinks it is... Chances are the judge would take the dog warden's opinion as "expert" testimony (make of that what you will). It'd be up to the owner to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it's not.

I'd reckon similar and no doubt there'll be more than a few screwups happening.

dashiell hammett

DBB wrote: »

PS I don't suppose there's a chance of pics of his parents?!

I don't have any of the mother and I don't want to post the ones I have of the sire as he's quite recognizable and his pic and pups from his planned mating's have been advertised online (Wolf hybrids €1000 LOL). Our pup came from an unplanned mating with the next door neighbors dog an accident waiting to happen.

Rommie

Am I the only one who sees a bit of a leo in the coat and build? Definitely don't see any wolfdog in there at all, he's far too heavyset

DBB

Rommie wrote: »

Am I the only one who sees a bit of a leo in the coat and build? Definitely don't see any wolfdog in there at all, he's far too heavyset

Lol, when I said I could be convinced there's giant breed in there, the Leonberger is exactly what I had in mind! OH thought Newfoundland. If you look at his body, he's a little too rounded for a GSD or BSD, but very like one of these massive, hairy breeds!

Wibbs

dashiell hammett wrote: »

I don't have any of the mother and I don't want to post the ones I have of the sire as he's quite recognizable and his pic and pups from his planned mating's have been advertised online (Wolf hybrids €1000 LOL).

Fools and their money.... Dammit I wanna know how fools get their money in the first place. Funny enough looking at your guy again the one bit that does look wolf is his tail. Not the colour or length, but the way it lays straight down when relaxed.

DBB

Wibbs wrote: »

Funny enough looking at your guy again the one bit that does look wolf is his tail. Not the colour or length, but the way it lays straight down when relaxed.

I dunno Wibbs, my GSD has a big ole bushy tail just like that, it points straight down when she's in neutral mode too!

dashiell hammett

Wibbs wrote: »

Lovely doggie Maybe a long haired Belgian shepherd? Don't see any wolfdog in him anyway. He's a very solid build, they're generally narrower and with longer legs and longer snouts. They also have "wild" colouring to the fur, where the individual strands of hair can have more than one pigment, rare among other domestic breeds, they also have a distinctive face mask.

I'd reckon similar and no doubt there'll be more than a few screwups happening.

He has many of the "wolf" markings and fur under the long black hair. He changes colour when the wind blows up and down his fur. As a pup he had a most obvious black cross on his shoulders its still there but not as noticeable against the long black hair. I don't think he has any two tone fur but he seems to have some in the summer that is red at the ends, he gets that between his webbed tows and all down the backs of his legs but I think some black dogs get that in their summer coat.

He's a mad swimmer and when wet looks like a different dog and has the skinny legs that you see on wolves that look almost out of proportion on them. Feet btw are huge, webbed and at a run he has a 14ft pace (the distance between the same foots prints) and 11ft at a trot.

Still none of that would convince me he's got any wolf in him or the fact that some of his siblings that live near each other howl to each other at night. Temperament is nothing like I've read about for Saarloos or other wolfdogs except he's a big coward.

dashiell hammett

DBB wrote: »

Lol, when I said I could be convinced there's giant breed in there, the Leonberger is exactly what I had in mind! OH thought Newfoundland. If you look at his body, he's a little too rounded for a GSD or BSD, but very like one of these massive, hairy breeds!

I know a few Newfoundland and they are massive on the shoulders in comparison to our dog who is massive on the back end, when he sits down we joke he has a fat ass. Took a good bit of training to stop him jumping up, a few "men" try and get him to jump up, but they only do it once

Leonberger is a good point, I've looked up some googled pics and I can see how a good bit of Leonberger would help impart the size without changing many of the other GSD type features. But neither parent looked anything like a Leonberger again not that that proves anything much.

mathepac

That's one big handsome looking fella in the picture OP, just my kind of dog if I had room for him.

I agree. GSD is the first breed that jumps to mind from the picture, but even allowing for the winter coat he is one serious lump of canine he-man.

Look at the size of his feet - custom-made for wading over snowdrifts without sinking IMHO and even if he does sink look at the rear-end and shoulders he has on him. he's like a snow-plough.

Is there any chance there's an Alpine / mountain working dog in his family tree, not a St Bernard, but some other muscular mountain-dweller

dashiell hammett

mathepac wrote: »

Is there any chance there's an Alpine / mountain working dog in his family tree, not a St Bernard, but some other muscular mountain-dweller

I've seen both parents and thats about it the sire is supposed to have come as one of a pair from Northern Ireland as a Wolf Hybrid (the pair part made me think Saarloos).

I think people are looking at the pic and seeing more dog than is actually there, I'll see if I can find a pic of him when wet.

dashiell hammett

Wibbs wrote: »

Fools and their money.... Dammit I wanna know how fools get their money in the first place. Funny enough looking at your guy again the one bit that does look wolf is his tail. Not the colour or length, but the way it lays straight down when relaxed.

We paid iirc €200 which for any well cared for pup with all its injections up to date I don't think is bad OK €200 a pop for 11 pups is good money but they all took a lot of looking after as the mother was quite small - only 14 months old.

I can't be sure of when the pups were first checked by the vet but whenever it was the vet commented that they were 3 times the weight of GSD pups of the same age.

Wibbs

dashiell hammett wrote: »

We paid iirc €200 which for any well cared for pup with all its injections up to date I don't think is bad

Ah sorry DH I wasn't talking about you or your guy I meant those paying 1000 quid for "wolf hybrids". I met a guy who paid similar and it was clear the dog(nice oul yoke) was some sorta husky crossed with a GSD*.









*Interestingly for me yer man described it's temperament and behaviour and it sounded wolfie alright, but he had spent hours online reading up about such behaviour so what he expected is what he got. On the other side of that I recall reading of a Spanish or Portuguese couple who were keen on hiking and who had a found a poor little puppy outside some remote village or other, so they brought it home. Other than mad puppy destruction, food aggression and hard to train their doggie was pretty cool with living in an apartment and going on long walks. Fast forward 3 or 4 years and they had a mate and her new partner who was a park ranger over for dinner. He nearly fell out of his chair when he saw an Iberian wolf laying on the floor. I reckon our perceptions drive a lot of what we see as our dogs behavior.

dashiell hammett

Wibbs wrote: »

Ah sorry DH I wasn't talking about you or your guy I meant those paying 1000 quid for "wolf hybrids". I met a guy who paid similar and it was clear the dog(nice oul yoke) was some sorta husky crossed with a GSD*.









*Interestingly for me yer man described it's temperament and behaviour and it sounded wolfie alright, but he had spent hours online reading up about such behaviour so what he expected is what he got. On the other side of that I recall reading of a Spanish or Portuguese couple who were keen on hiking and who had a found a poor little puppy outside some remote village or other, so they brought it home. Other than mad puppy destruction, food aggression and hard to train their doggie was pretty cool with living in an apartment and going on long walks. Fast forward 3 or 4 years and they had a mate and her new partner who was a park ranger over for dinner. He nearly fell out of his chair when he saw an Iberian wolf laying on the floor. I reckon our perceptions drive a lot of what we see as our dogs behavior.

No problems I didn't think you were refering to what we paid I just brought it up as a comparison, €200 for a healthy good looking pup is fine by me. A friend went to see the €1000 "wolf" hybrids and could have had one for €500 - they declined but did like the look of the pups all the same.

I was a bit ott with training just in case there was any truth in the wolf hybrid bit, we did have a lot of problems with him being scared of everything so he had to be slowly introduced to everything from flapping plastic bags to canoes. Prams were a nightmare. Still not taken him around sheep but he's cool with chickens and bullocks, horses were another training issue but a neighbor who rides regularly was good enough help by allowing him on the lead closer and closer each time we met on walks. Now all I have to do is stop him following the horse a couple of feet from its back legs :rolleyes:

TooManyDogs

Stunning looking dog, but agree with the others that I'd be very sceptical of there being any wolf in the mix. There are so few genuine wolf hybrids in the country never mind saraloos or czech wolf dog, but people can make good money saying they have wolf x pups for sale. To me he looks like a magnificent GSD x . My own GSD x would look similar in a similar pose, including tail, except for her ears are floppy, but we've had GSD x's in the rescue that would be as big and similar build but vary in colour.

I think the internet can be great for information but also can be a hindrance. I've been told that one of my dogs is an akita x (not in his wildest dreams!), another is an Italian greyhound x (for all the wandering IG's in Kilbarrack!) and that my GSD x is part Afghan hound (again, not the most common dog to be wandering around impregnating dogs in Ballymun!). I think you have to temper internet info, and info you're told by anyone selling cross bred pups with rare heritage with some common sense. A dog adopted from a rescue is far more likely to be a pom x jrt than the shiba inu the internet told you that you have for example (A lady insisted she adopted a shiba inu from us as a pup, extremely unlikely considering how rare they are as dogs in Ireland anyway, but a pom x jrt? similar looking and very likely!)