Woman orchestrates false rape accusation against her own brother

B0jangles

Speisekarte wrote: »

How are their figures for unreported rape cases then in Bojangles attached link?

They are taken from women calling support groups and answering surveys etc., but who have not gone to the police to press charges.

So unless there are a huuuuge number of women pretending to have been raped so they can get sympathy from Rape Crisis centres, I think you'd have to accept that rape is a very under-reported crime.

This is a definitely a discussion for another thread though.

I only brought it up to counter the poster who was drawing the erroneous conclusion from this appalling case that false rape claims are commonplace.

Speisekarte

B0jangles wrote: »

They are taken from women calling support groups and answering surveys etc., but who have not gone to the police to press charges.

So unless there are a huuuuge number of women pretending to have been raped so they can get sympathy from Rape Crisis centres, I think you'd have to accept that rape is a very under-reported crime.

This is a definitely a discussion for another thread though.

I only brought it up to counter the poster who was drawing the erroneous conclusion from this appalling case that false rape claims are commonplace.

I don't claim that rape isn't under reported. My point is that false rape convictions must be a lot less than the real number of false rape claims.

tritium

B0jangles wrote: »

They are taken from women calling support groups and answering surveys etc., but who have not gone to the police to press charges.

So unless there are a huuuuge number of women pretending to have been raped so they can get sympathy from Rape Crisis centres, I think you'd have to accept that rape is a very under-reported crime.

This is a definitely a discussion for another thread though.

I only brought it up to counter the poster who was drawing the erroneous conclusion from this appalling case that false rape claims are commonplace.

There are a wide range of estimates of fake rape claim rates, ranging from less than 1% to in the 90% range - obviously its difficult to define and accurately estimate this issue. One of the most often cited (and more methodologically acceptable - though not without issues) comes from David Lisak and puts the rate at about 6%. However even this survey applied a hugely conservative definition to the question - essentially, unless there was a cast iron, free of interrogation admission of false reporting it didn't make the cut. To put it another way 6% false here doesn't imply 94% true, but rather 6% definite false, some other small percentage definite true and a huge unknown block in the middle.

Femme_Fatale

Accusation of rape of a child is taken most seriously of all, and this weapon knew it.

False accusations of rape in general though, I would say are rare (even though one is too many obviously). I'm not sure why some are so keen for it to be agreed that they're commonplace, or how that would be a "leftist" viewpoint.

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

It's a good thing the judge forgot to check what AH thinks at the time, then, isn't it? Phew for all involved!

Nothing wrong with pointing out hypocrisy. Had there been a story about the same man allegedly raping a child full stop, there'd be howls for torture/murder of him, and "No smoke without fire" to anyone pointing out innocent until proven guilty.

BeerWolf wrote: »

Women like these really need to spend the amount of time in prison to the same extent as murder, cause they've ruined people's lives...

Nah, she didn't murder anyone so she shouldn't get a murder sentence, but yeh she should get jail IMO - for perjury/perverting the course of justice and perhaps using a minor to make a false accusation carries a criminal penalty.

Speisekarte

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Accusation of rape of a child is taken most seriously of all, and this weapon knew it.

False accusations of rape in general though, I would say are rare (even though one is too many obviously). I'm not sure why some are so keen for it to be agreed that they're commonplace, or how that would be a "leftist" viewpoint.

Nothing wrong with pointing out hypocrisy. Had there been a story about the same man allegedly raping a child full stop, there'd be howls for torture/murder of him, and "No smoke without fire" to anyone pointing out innocent until proven guilty.

Nah, she didn't murder anyone so she shouldn't get a murder sentence, but yeh she should get jail IMO - for perjury/perverting the course of justice and perhaps using a minor to make a false accusation carries a criminal penalty.

Some would ask why are people so keen to insist that false tape claims are rare when there is no proof of such.

Eramen

Who is in all honesty surprised by this anymore ?

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

We are living in the era of the 'Wimminz culture', where a significant proportion of women simply refuse to behave like anything akin to a productive adult, who consistently act like spoiled children, indeed they have grown used to it; who avoid responsibility in their lives as much as possible, much less having anything resembling respect toward others, crying 'sexism!' at the drop of a hat et al. Then they expect people, specifically men, to cater to their every whim as the need arises.

The above coupled with the fact that modern young men seem afraid or unable to assert their rights as persons [for legitimate reasons in many cases] and we have a recipe for disaster. See the real world.. Relations between the sexes are at an all time low.

There are good women out there, but the wheat needs to be separated from the chaff, just like anything else. I genuinely salute any decent female considering the state of affairs.

Mod: Poster banned

cursai

Eramen wrote: »

Who is in all honesty surprised by this anymore ?

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

We are living in the era of the 'Wimminz culture', where a significant proportion of women simply refuse to behave like anything akin to a productive adult, who consistently act like spoiled children, indeed they have grown used to it; who avoid responsibility in their lives as much as possible, much less having anything resembling respect toward others, crying 'sexism!' at the drop of a hat et al. Then they expect people, specifically men, to cater to their every whim as the need arises.

The above coupled with the fact that modern young men seem afraid or unable to assert their rights as persons [for legitimate reasons in many cases] and we have a recipe for disaster. See the real world.. Relations between the sexes are at an all time low.

There are good women out there, but the wheat needs to be separated from the chaff, just like anything else. I genuinely salute any decent female considering the state of affairs.

eh....think you need to get the shift!

Femme_Fatale

Speisekarte wrote: »

Some would ask why are people so keen to insist that false tape claims are rare when there is no proof of such.

Because most people aren't that f'ucked up. I know it's fashionable to be all cynical but how many people do you know who'd resort to such a heinous thing?

Eramen wrote: »

Who is in all honesty surprised by this anymore ?

I am. "In all honesty". Since it isn't that commonplace, from what I've observed, and it's still shocking.

There are good women out there... I genuinely salute any decent female considering the state of affairs.

That back-handed compliment is most noble of you.

Eramen

cursai wrote: »

eh....think you need to get the shift!

Guess I shouldn't be surprised by this on the ol' AH forum. Getting the shift is easy, but it doesn't fix the problem.

I wonder what wimmin has you around her little finger. Hopefully not the mammy :pac:

Femme_Fatale

Eramen wrote: »

I wonder what wimmin has you around her little finger.

Yes, clearly because they find your post extremely OTT it means they're wrapped around a woman's finger.

Speisekarte

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Because most people aren't that f'ucked up. I know it's fashionable to be all cynical but how many people do you know who'd resort to such a heinous thing?
.

Just because "most people aren't that fukced up" doesn't mean a minority can't cause widespread damage.

It's not cynicism. It's basic reasoning.

We don't know what percentage of rape claims are true or not. It's as simple as that. People lie all the time, I don't know why you'd assume they tell the truth.

Femme_Fatale

Speisekarte wrote: »

Just because "most people aren't that fukced up" doesn't mean a minority can't cause widespread damage.

It's not cynicism. It's basic reasoning.

We don't know what percentage of rape claims are true or not. It's as simple as that. People lie all the time, I don't know why you'd assume they tell the truth.

Of course. But the above doesn't mean false allegations aren't rare still, as opposed to being widespread, which some people on this thread seem to want to be the case.

cursai

Eramen wrote: »

Guess I shouldn't be surprised by this on the ol' AH forum. Getting the shift is easy, but it doesn't fix the problem.

I wonder what wimmin has you around her little finger. Hopefully not the mammy :pac:

ergh! A lot of anger towards women. Id be questioning the quality of those shifts you get. Try talking to them first. theyre mostly sound and will shift you better. Oh! and dont tell them what you reaaallllly think about women.

Speisekarte

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Of course. But the above doesn't mean false allegations aren't rare still, as opposed to being widespread, which some people on this thread seem to want to be the case.

All I can safely assume is that false allegation rates are somewhere between 0 and 100%. I assume nothing until proof backs it up.

B0jangles

Speisekarte wrote: »

All I can safely assume is that false allegation rates are somewhere between 0 and 100%. I assume nothing until proof backs it up.

Do you apply the same thought process to other crimes against the person?

Speisekarte

B0jangles wrote: »

Do you apply the same thought process to other crimes against the person?

With no evidence reliable statistics I assume nothing.

If someone accuse another individual of assault, it could be true or it could be a false accusation.

Son Of A Vidic

One of the most alarming aspects of this case for me is, the poor guy was so terrified, that he actually admitted his guilt to a crime he never committed. It really makes you wonder about people who may have behaved in a similar fashion in the past. When a guy admits his guilt, we all naturally assume he really must be guilty. But this case is just disturbing on so many levels.

Jogathon

Actually this lady could be charged with sexual abuse of her own daughter. Sexual abuse can include giving knowledge that would be beyond the child's age appropriate level.

bettybarlow

This is just sickening. In modern Irish society we have become accustomed (and rightly so) to believing children when they make a claim like this and that woman knew that. Whatever doubt anyone may have had it would have gone when he pleaded guilty.

Poor man, what he must have gone through. That woman deserves to be punished severely for this. She may have problems, she may be ****ed up but to use and abuse her child like that and destroy her brother's life is indefensible.

Speisekarte

Jogathon wrote: »

Actually this lady could be charged with sexual abuse of her own daughter. Sexual abuse can include giving knowledge that would be beyond the child's age appropriate level.

Well if she managed to convince her that she was raped I would most definitely categorise it as sexual abuse. Who knows how that coul damage her daughters sexual and mental development.

bettybarlow

Jogathon wrote: »

Actually this lady could be charged with sexual abuse of her own daughter. Sexual abuse can include giving knowledge that would be beyond the child's age appropriate level.

There are no details given but the investigations may have required a physical examination which would be actual physical and sexual abuse if the mother allowed it knowing the claims to be false

Jimmy Garlic

People who make false claims of rape should receive the same sentence as those who they accuse would have got if they were convicted. That also should go for people who get pissed drunk, have consensual sex (even though their judgement was impaired) and decide retrospectively that they were raped.

tritium

Speisekarte wrote: »

Well if she managed to convince her that she was raped I would most definitely categorise it as sexual abuse. Who knows how that coul damage her daughters sexual and mental development.

God knows what effect this has/ will have on the child's relationship with her mother. Unbelievable that somehow depression and anorexia have been offered as a valid reason for such vile behaviour.

iptba

suicide_circus wrote: »

this happens a lot? I've actually never heard of a similar case in my life ever.

Here's a false accusation case from the UK recently:

An innocent taxi driver was saved from a sex attack charge by a mobile phone app which exposed his accuser’s lies.
http://metro.co.uk/2013/07/04/cab-driver-saved-by-app-over-false-sex-claims-3869867/

DeadlyH83

Caliden wrote: »

I think the saddest part of this is that, even though the man knew he was 100% innocent, he was willing to plead guilty.
that

I think the saddest part is that the man was drinking heavy at the time with a bad memory and as he said he couldn't account for some days.
The poor man must have thought that yes he did do something bad to his niece when he was drunk and it must have tore at his mind.

I think that's the saddest part that he had to live 10 years doubting himself and feeling quilty and wrecked his life.

jugger0

**** me rare.. just shoot the lot of them.

iptba

dotsman wrote: »

Couldn't see a thread about this:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0715/462647-rape-complainant-admits-lying-to-gardai/

For those who can't access it:



I can't believe how someone would do this, let alone to their own (intellectually disabled) brother. What's worse is that I can't imagine our judicial system will punish her is any meaningful way.

She destroyed her brother's life, screwed up her daughter's and makes it harder for real victim's of rape to get justice.

Related:

Femme_Fatale

jugger0 wrote: »

**** me rare.. just shoot the lot of them.

Magnificent input. Shoot who?

Killer Wench

Super-Rush wrote: »

Its a testament to the justice system in this country that if you plead guilty you get a more lenient sentence.

This is ultimately what makes me uncomfortable with this case.

iptba

Killer Wench wrote: »

Super-Rush wrote:

Its a testament to the justice system in this country that if you plead guilty you get a more lenient sentence.

This is ultimately what makes me uncomfortable with this case.

I'm not sure if it's necessarily a bad thing. By having no trial, the idea is that the victim isn't put through the ordeal. Also, if there is a trial, people who are guilty of something could get off by luck. Trials also take a lot of financial and other resources (i.e. the time of jury members and also interested parties like family members who attend).

Killer Wench

iptba wrote: »

I'm not sure if it's necessarily a bad thing. By having no trial, the idea is that the victim isn't put through the ordeal. Also, if there is a trial, people who are guilty of something could get off by luck. Trials also take a lot of financial and other resources (i.e. the time of jury members and also interested parties like family members who attend).

I understand pleading to a lesser charge.


But this man plead guilty to the charge of rape and serious sexual assault with the hope of no jail time. From reading the OP, it seemed like he did not serve any jail, but instead, had been classified as a sex offender and had this conviction over his head.

If a man pleads to raping a 10 year old girl, I would hope that he would serve some time in jail.

iptba

Killer Wench wrote: »

I understand pleading to a lesser charge.


But this man plead guilty to the charge of rape and serious sexual assault with the hope of no jail time. From reading the OP, it seemed like he did not serve any jail, but instead, had been classified as a sex offender and had this conviction over his head.

If a man pleads to raping a 10 year old girl, I would hope that he would serve some time in jail.

So when you said:

This is ultimately what makes me uncomfortable with this case.

what makes you uncomfortable about this case is that somebody pleading to such a crime might not get a tough sentence? Nothing else makes you uncomfortable?

Killer Wench

iptba wrote: »

So when you said:

what makes you uncomfortable about this case is that somebody pleading to such a crime might not get a tough sentence? Nothing else makes you uncomfortable?

Absolutely. If a person is pleading guilty to rape and sexual assault because they won't get jail time, there is something seriously ****ed with the system.

iptba

Killer Wench wrote: »

Absolutely. If a person is pleading guilty to rape and sexual assault because they won't get jail time, there is something seriously ****ed with the system.

I accept it might be considered one interesting aspect. I don't accept it is the only interesting aspect/the only uncomfortable aspect of it.

CrinkElite

A lot of people are calling for the righteous punishment of the woman in question but the sad thing is, she would probably never have admitted the truth if she faced serious repercussions.

Killer Wench

iptba wrote: »

I accept it might be considered one interesting aspect. I don't accept it is the only interesting aspect/the only uncomfortable aspect of it.

That's your opinion and I have mine.

I'm surprised by the amount of aggression towards the mother here.

She did something absolutely terrible. To her daughter and to her brother.

But she was mentally unstable at the time, suffering from depression and anorexia and trying to raise a daughter, while at the same time having her alcoholic brother living in the house. She so desperately wanted him out of the house that she convinced her little girl to say all those things.

Her actions are certainly wrong, and she should really have to undergo some form of punishment and psychological exam, but there's no need to have her shot, hung or to call her a treacherous bitch. For all we know she was just extremely messed up due to her psychological condition and genuinely feared for her daughter's safety.

iptba

Killer Wench wrote: »

That's your opinion and I have mine.

And that's why, I would say, some people (particularly men) have distrust or unease regarding some people who have pushed for change with regard to trials and sentencing of sexual crimes (and their initiatives): a lack of concern for the issue of false allegations.

It's maybe a bit like domestic violence where so many just focus on female victims.

Il Giornale

true-or-false wrote: »

I'm surprised by the amount of aggression towards the mother here.

She did something absolutely terrible. To her daughter and to her brother.

But she was mentally unstable at the time, suffering from depression and anorexia and trying to raise a daughter, while at the same time having her alcoholic brother living in the house. She so desperately wanted him out of the house that she convinced her little girl to say all those things.

Her actions are certainly wrong, and she should really have to undergo some form of punishment and psychological exam, but there's no need to have her shot, hung or to call her a treacherous bitch. For all we know she was just extremely messed up due to her psychological condition and genuinely feared for her daughter's safety.

So what, plenty if people have depression and are "unstable" and would never do something like that. That's absolutely no excuse.

XxMCRxBabyxX

suicide_circus wrote: »

this happens a lot? I've actually never heard of a similar case in my life ever.

While I don't agree that this happens regularly at all there was a very similar case a couple of years ago where a woman came out and said that when she was a child, she had been made, by her mother, accuse a neighbour of abuse because of a dispute between her mother and the neighbour.

XxMCRxBabyxX

true-or-false wrote: »

I'm surprised by the amount of aggression towards the mother here.

She did something absolutely terrible. To her daughter and to her brother.

But she was mentally unstable at the time, suffering from depression and anorexia and trying to raise a daughter, while at the same time having her alcoholic brother living in the house. She so desperately wanted him out of the house that she convinced her little girl to say all those things.

Her actions are certainly wrong, and she should really have to undergo some form of punishment and psychological exam, but there's no need to have her shot, hung or to call her a treacherous bitch. For all we know she was just extremely messed up due to her psychological condition and genuinely feared for her daughter's safety.

There are plenty of ways to get someone out of your house without accusing them off a crime, especially something as serious as child abuse. I don't care what issues she had, NOTHING can in any way defend her actions or lessen how serious they are. Nothing.  

19543261

true-or-false wrote: »

I'm surprised by the amount of aggression towards the mother here.

She did something absolutely terrible. To her daughter and to her brother.

But she was mentally unstable at the time, suffering from depression and anorexia and trying to raise a daughter, while at the same time having her alcoholic brother living in the house. She so desperately wanted him out of the house that she convinced her little girl to say all those things.

Her actions are certainly wrong, and she should really have to undergo some form of punishment and psychological exam, but there's no need to have her shot, hung or to call her a treacherous bitch. For all we know she was just extremely messed up due to her psychological condition and genuinely feared for her daughter's safety.

Say, for example, the uncle had committed those crimes, and as he said, he couldnt remember that part of his life clearly; he has a mental impairment and spent his days drunk (trying to cope with depression or what have you). Would you have considered his actions in the context of his mental state and circumstances at the time? Probably not. Your sympathy would have stopped at the words "rape" and "child". Not to say that such things excuse those actions, but they would have been just as relevent to him as they are for the mother in reality.

Abhorrent crimes by their nature would have to be committed during an abnormal mental state, unless there was an underlining personality disorder.

They're sensible questions (and in my mind, crucial) to ask, but they should extend to all criminals. You feel sympathetic towards the mother for whatever reason, yet how often have you asked them in other cases.

Paddy Cow

true-or-false wrote: »

I'm surprised by the amount of aggression towards the mother here.

She did something absolutely terrible. To her daughter and to her brother.

But she was mentally unstable at the time, suffering from depression and anorexia and trying to raise a daughter, while at the same time having her alcoholic brother living in the house. She so desperately wanted him out of the house that she convinced her little girl to say all those things.

Her actions are certainly wrong, and she should really have to undergo some form of punishment and psychological exam, but there's no need to have her shot, hung or to call her a treacherous bitch. For all we know she was just extremely messed up due to her psychological condition and genuinely feared for her daughter's safety.

She is a treacherous bitch. She only admitted it because her daughter grew up, realised the seriousness of the situation and came clean. Being messed up at the time doesn't excuse what she did or keeping up the facade for so long.

Killer Wench

iptba wrote: »

And that's why, I would say, some people (particularly men) have distrust or unease regarding some people who have pushed for change with regard to trials and sentencing of sexual crimes (and their initiatives): a lack of concern for the issue of false allegations.

It's maybe a bit like domestic violence where so many just focus on female victims.

You are failing to look beyond this one man and this once case. Was he imprisoned for twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years of his life? Was he executed for the crime that he admitted to committing?

Consider this: there are probably actual rapists who plead guilty to rape and serious sexual assault who also received no jail time and are currently walking the streets of Ireland.

Knowing that someone can plead guilty to committing rape and serious sexual assault and receive no jail time makes me pretty damn uncomfortable.

iptba

Killer Wench wrote: »

You are failing to look beyond this one man and this once case. Was he imprisoned for twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years of his life? Was he executed for the crime that he admitted to committing?

Consider this: there are probably actual rapists who plead guilty to rape and serious sexual assault who also received no jail time and are currently walking the streets of Ireland.

Knowing that someone can plead guilty to committing rape and serious sexual assault and receive no jail time makes me pretty damn uncomfortable.

We don't know what sentence he would have got.
But he was already on the sex offenders register, which is not a popular register to be on, to put it mildly.

What we do know is a false allegation was made against him.
And with alleged sexual crimes, people have called for all sorts of lower rules in terms of questioning alleged victims, what is needed to prove the case compared to other types of crime, etc.

Consider this: there are probably actual rapists who plead guilty to rape and serious sexual assault who also received no jail time and are currently walking the streets of Ireland.

Consider this: there are people who have killed other people, which is the worst thing that can happen to you, who also received no jail time and are currently walking the streets of Ireland.

I continue to affirm that the possible sentence isn't the noteworthy aspect of this case.

Killer Wench

iptba wrote: »

We don't know what sentence he would have got.
But he was already on the sex offenders register, which is not a popular register to be on, to put it mildly.

What we do know is a false allegation was made against him.
And with alleged sexual crimes, people have called for all sorts of lower rules in terms of questioning alleged victims, what is needed to prove the case compared to other types of crime, etc.

Consider this: there are people who have killed other people, which is the worst thing that can happen to you, who also received no jail time and are currently walking the streets of Ireland.

I continue to affirm that the possible sentence isn't the noteworthy aspect of this case.

Is being killed - thus moving onto heaven or into nothingness depending on your view - really worse than being raped and living with the reality that someone has violated your body and spirit?

iptba

Killer Wench wrote: »

Is being killed - thus moving onto heaven or into nothingness depending on your view - really worse than being raped and living with the reality that someone has violated your body and spirit?

Yes, I believe it is. If life is so bad, one can always kill oneself. If one is dead, one doesn't have any options.

Killer Wench

iptba wrote: »

Yes, I believe it is. If life is so bad, one can always kill oneself. If one is dead, one doesn't have any options.

But, you're dead. You are dreaming about being raped. You aren't walking down the street, fearing that someone is going to leap out and attack you.

You're dead. The end.

You're raped. Live on and fight to overcome the event.

hatrickpatrick

This is child abuse on top of everything else. That poor little girl is going to grow up with a very warped sense of justice and with the notion that this is how you deal with people you have a problem with.
Such a sad case. The mother is an absolute monster beyond words and should be locked up for a long, long time where she can't poison anyone else's lives.

hatrickpatrick

true-or-false wrote: »

I'm surprised by the amount of aggression towards the mother here.

She did something absolutely terrible. To her daughter and to her brother.

But she was mentally unstable at the time, suffering from depression and anorexia and trying to raise a daughter, while at the same time having her alcoholic brother living in the house. She so desperately wanted him out of the house that she convinced her little girl to say all those things.

Her actions are certainly wrong, and she should really have to undergo some form of punishment and psychological exam, but there's no need to have her shot, hung or to call her a treacherous bitch. For all we know she was just extremely messed up due to her psychological condition and genuinely feared for her daughter's safety.

This is going to be accused of being sexist but I'm going to come out and say it: I'm sick to the teeth of life circumstances / alleged mental instability being used as an excuse any time a woman does something as evil as this. It almost never gets trotted out in the case of guys who are absolute monsters.

Sometimes it feels like society expects a proportion of men to be absolute monsters but when it's a woman, there obviously must be a reason behind it, a logical explanation. Nobody cares about why a man commits vile offenses against humanity, and rarely will revelations of difficult circumstances glean the kind of sympathy you are giving this woman.

I'm sure some will say this is inaccurate but I'm not so sure it is. Unproven allegations of abuse against the victim is another very common one, AKA Bobbit. I seem to see this in absolutely every case involving vile women who do unspeakable things, but when it's a guy it's just "He's a douchebag. Next."

I just find it very unsettling. On top of everything else, it seems that there's a sympathy card women can play which a sizable proportion of the population will accept, but would give the two fingers to if it came from a guy who had done something equally appalling