Should Schmidt drop BOD?

JagerScout

Brian O'Driscoll is in his final year of his career by all accounts, his value to Irish rugby over the last decade plus cannot be measured and has been clearly invaluable to the growth of the game in this country. He is however retiring at the end of the season.

The 2015 rugby world cup is almost 2 years away, a replacement for BOD will be required, should Ireland begin that transitioning now? Or should BOD be kept on until he retires from Ireland post the 2014 6 nations?

Sulla Felix

I'd imagine he'll get 50% of the starts for the Autumns and we'll be seeing another for the others. Depending on how that goes and how the two perform for their provinces, it'll be interesting to see who gets the starting 13 for the 6 Nations.

vienne86

NO WAY should BOD be dropped until he has to be dropped.

Podge_irl

6N = best player plays.

A game against Scotland/Italy or even a whole 6N isn't going to catapult Earls or Cave into greatness.

Dravokivich

I think there is more value to having his presence in the squad, than out of it. With how Joe works, you can't take for granted he's always going to be a starter. Also his experience and advice is going to be invaluable now more than ever for whoever is coming in at 13.

Podge_irl

Dravokivich wrote: »

With how Joe works, you can't take for granted he's always going to be a starter.

He's never dropped him before, I fail to see why he'd start now.

Dravokivich

Podge_irl wrote: »

He's never dropped him before, I fail to see why he'd start now.

He'll use whoever is available, however he feels is best over a range of games. He's held back with bod before with that mindset. At least the end of the last season as well.

LeeroyJones

November + Summer tests are the times to be thinking of future World Cups.

BOD is still one of the best players in the World. Ireland have a stronger chance of winning matches with him than without ATM. Therefore it's a non-starter; he plays in the 6 Nations.

Schmidt can experiment during the November Series. I'd have him against the All Blacks - given the Gigantic Monster Monkey on our back there

danthefan

No.

Not for sentimental reasons or anything like that, but because we don't have a 13 who can touch him still.

JagerScout

I obviously don't agree but i've read it other places that he should, wonder if we will find a poster on here able to justify it.

awec

For the AI games yes. Time to give our next 13 their shot.

One of the biggest criticisms of kidney was his over reliance on the old guard. I'd like that to change under Schmidt.

LeeroyJones

JagerScout wrote: »

I obviously don't agree but i've read it other places that he should, wonder if we will find a poster on here able to justify it.

The justification is that he's old and that no Irish player has a had a long crack at the no.13 jersey in a generation. When he goes we will miss him and we should be prepared.

That's not enough for me to be quite honest but there are people of that opinion.

danthefan

awec wrote: »

For the AI games yes. Time to give our next 13 their shot.

One of the biggest criticisms of kidney was his over reliance on the old guard. I'd like that to change under Schmidt.

Just on the first sentence, who is our next 13?

The "old guard" inherently aren't a problem. It's when he stuck with the old guard (mostly Munster players) when they were not fit for purpose anymore and there were clearly better players there to take over. DOC was getting a game for Ireland after he'd been dropped by Munster and was patently not a better player than Ryan anymore for example. There's nobody in Ireland better than BOD at 13.

Artful_Badger

Schmidt can try out some new blood without dropping BOD though. Makes no sense to throw another 13 into the deep end while we have someone like BOD available.

thomond2006

The more important question is if Schmidt will bring John Hayes back.

Swan Curry

thomond2006 wrote: »

The more important question is if Schmidt will bring John Hayes back.

Every other team has big centres,putting the Bull at 13 would kill two birds with one stone.

awec

danthefan wrote: »

Just on the first sentence, who is our next 13?

The "old guard" inherently aren't a problem. It's when he stuck with the old guard (mostly Munster players) when they were not fit for purpose anymore and there were clearly better players there to take over. DOC was getting a game for Ireland after he'd been dropped by Munster and was patently not a better player than Ryan anymore for example. There's nobody in Ireland better than BOD at 13.

there is only one way to find out who our next 13 is.

I don't want another 10 situation where we had no idea who was behind sexton due to kidneys inability to look beyond ROG.

there are a lot of parallels that can be drawn here, and we should learn from our mistakes IMO.

Swan Curry

For the Samoa match,BOD shouldn't play.It would be a good chance to give a younger 13 experience.

If,by the time of the AIs,there's a 13 capable of playing against Australia and New Zealand,they should start ahead of BOD.However,I very much doubt that will be the case.

danthefan

awec wrote: »

there is only one way to find out who our next 13 is.

I don't want another 10 situation where we had no idea who was behind sexton due to kidneys inability to look beyond ROG.

there are a lot of parallels that can be drawn here, and we should learn from our mistakes IMO.

Who do you suggest?

JagerScout

The only real options are:

1. Earls
2. Cave
3. Griffin
4. McFadden
5. Fitzgerald
6. Olding
7. O'Malley
8. Macken

Not sure who else might be an option..

Busted Flat.

No

The way rugby is gone, we can see BOD, still there on a zimmer frame fully kited out on the side line. Move on and bring young blood to the front, this auld palsey walsey $hite should be taken out of sport.

Podge_irl

Busted Flat. wrote: »

The way rugby is gone, we can see BOD, still there on a zimmer frame fully kited out on the side line. Move on and bring young blood to the front, this auld palsey walsey $hite should be taken out of sport.

BOD is still the best 13 we have, and by a reasonable margin, so that argument is bull**** basically.

Kidney persisted with ROG (and other players) far past their best when there were better players available. Its simply not a comparable situation.

Yes, for the sake of his own health.

Busted Flat.

No

Podge_irl wrote: »

BOD is still the best 13 we have, and by a reasonable margin, so that argument is bull**** basically.

Kidney persisted with ROG (and other players) far past their best when there were better players available. Its simply not a comparable situation.

I can see that Munster/Lenster way of seeing things. Those lout's from the south do not really fit in.

thomond2006

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Those lout's from the south do not really fit in.

Ara g'wan away outta that you amadán

Swan Curry

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, for the sake of his own health.

I think he knows his own health better than you do,George.

Podge_irl

Busted Flat. wrote: »

I can see that Munster/Lenster way of seeing things. Those lout's from the south do not really fit in.

I genuinely have no idea what point you're trying to make.

supersonic64

I'd imagine BOD wont need any winding up to face the Welsh et all in the 6N. He doesn't have anything to prove to us but I bet he would love another Triple Crown/Grandslam/C'ship to sign off

LostArt

No.
He's our best 13, by some distance.

RuPi

He should continue to be selected until there is a better alternative and at present Earls is nowhere near an International class centre, Cave could struggle to get into the Ulster team this year as Marshall and Olding IMO are better players, Cave lacks the real pace to play international rugby. Part of me reckons BOD will get us through this year and then they will use Payne next season even though he prefers 15.

awec

Podge_irl wrote: »

BOD is still the best 13 we have, and by a reasonable margin, so that argument is bull**** basically.

Kidney persisted with ROG (and other players) far past their best when there were better players available. Its simply not a comparable situation.

The fact he is the best 13 we have shouldn't matter.

Kidney got criticism in the past for not looking forward. BOD should not play unless he absolutely needs to. His time is coming to an end, it's time to figure out who will replace him.

Cool_CM

Looked at the thread title and thought "shouldn't this be in the Leinster thread?", then I remembered!

Podge_irl

awec wrote: »

The fact he is the best 13 we have shouldn't matter.

Kidney got criticism in the past for not looking forward. BOD should not play unless he absolutely needs to.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I never criticised Kidney for not looking forward. I criticised him for relying on players he knew when there were, to me, better players available. Starting DOC when he'd already been ousted by Ryan at Munster for example. I don't think that Cave, or Earls or whoever steps in after BOD, will be a significantly better player come the RWC for having two 6N under their belts rather than one. Hell, Earls already has one and it didn't suddenly make him a better centre. That's not even going into the fact that the RWC can go and ****e for all I care. Ireland win **** all 6N and I'd like to both win one of them and win against NZ.

BOD needs to play if we want to win games. I do not understand why people want the coach to harm a team's chances of winning by playing an inferior player.

Ciaran-Irl

awec wrote: »

The fact he is the best 13 we have shouldn't matter.

Kidney got criticism in the past for not looking forward. BOD should not play unless he absolutely needs to. His time is coming to an end, it's time to figure out who will replace him.

The Irish 13 at the world cup should be Payne, and we can't try him out yet. Why avoid using BOD because he won't be available in a year's time, when he is available now. By that logic, we shouldn't have used him last year, knowing that we wouldn't use him this year, given that he would be gone in two years. In fact, why stop there? We should just play 20 year olds forever to plan for a future that never happens.

Busted Flat.

No

Podge_irl wrote: »

I can't speak for anyone else, but I never criticised Kidney for not looking forward. I criticised him for relying on players he knew when there were, to me, better players available. Starting DOC when he'd already been ousted by Ryan at Munster for example. I don't think that Cave, or Earls or whoever steps in after BOD, will be a significantly better player come the RWC for having two 6N under their belts rather than one. Hell, Earls already has one and it didn't suddenly make him a better centre. That's not even going into the fact that the RWC can go and ****e for all I care. Ireland win **** all 6N and I'd like to both win one of them and win against NZ.

BOD needs to play if we want to win games. I do not understand why people want the coach to harm a team's chances of winning by playing an inferior player.

BOD didn't play in the final Lions game and they won. Oh $hit, I am sorry that will offend a lot of his disciples. It is a young mans game not a launching pad for a career for over the hill players. Give the young lads a chance, or we will end up with no team.

JagerScout

Busted Flat. wrote: »

BOD didn't play in the final Lions game and they won. Oh $hit, I am sorry that will offend a lot of his disciples. It is a young mans game not a launching pad for a career for over the hill players. Give the young lads a chance, or we will end up with no team.

jaysus you talk awful crap.

thomond2006

Busted Flat. wrote: »

BOD didn't play in the final Lions game and they won. Oh $hit, I am sorry that will offend a lot of his disciples. It is a young mans game not a launching pad for a career for over the hill players. Give the young lads a chance, or we will end up with no team.

You mad bro?

Podge_irl

Busted Flat. wrote: »

BOD didn't play in the final Lions game and they won. Oh $hit, I am sorry that will offend a lot of his disciples. It is a young mans game not a launching pad for a career for over the hill players. Give the young lads a chance, or we will end up with no team.

The All Blacks win without BOD playing all the time. Its about as relevant.

BOD is not over the hill. Ignoring the fact that I don't think Davies should have picked over him and the result of the game had nothing to do with the centres, Ireland don't have another option that is even close to as good as Davies.

I fail to see what people think we'll accomplish by playing Cave or Earls in the 6N. They'll remain middling to good centres while an excellent one needlessly sits on his arse.

I'd like to see Bowe play 13 after BOD retires. A backline like this would be sick.
9. Murray
10.Sexton
11. Gilroy
12. Madigan
13. Bowe
14. Zebo
15. Kearney

Swan Curry

MAXFANTANA wrote: »

I'd like to see Bowe play 13 after BOD retires. A backline like this would be sick.
9. Murray
10.Sexton
11. Gilroy
12. Madigan
13. Bowe
14. Zebo
15. Kearney

Putting our best winger at 13 and our second best outhalf at 12 would certainly make me sick.

Podge_irl

MAXFANTANA wrote: »

I'd like to see Bowe play 13 after BOD retires. A backline like this would be sick.
9. Murray
10.Sexton
11. Gilroy
12. Madigan
13. Bowe
14. Zebo
15. Kearney

I don't doubt that Madigan, if left there, would develop into a very good 12. He's not going to play there regularly though and I'd take Marshall ahead of him there any day really.

FrannoFan

JagerScout wrote: »

The only real options are:

1. Earls
2. Cave
3. Griffin
4. McFadden
5. Fitzgerald
6. Olding
7. O'Malley
8. Macken

Not sure who else might be an option..

Realising that they are the options and that is depressing!Earls can't pass, Cave too slow and not powerful enough at highest level. Fitz or Olding maybe?
Winning a 6 nations would be better prep for the world cup than dropping our best 13.
Feel the Bowe experiment should have been done from the last lions tour till now(when BOD didn't play obviously, keeps his wing spot in between)
Fitz may develop there with leinster over the next two years.

Schmidt has a summer tour/autumn/ 6 nations/world cup warm up games to bed in a replacement after BOD retires.maybe 10/12 games. plenty of time particularly if whoever it is has a few caps already by this stage be it off the bench or on the wing etc.
At leinster he gave youth a chance but when it came to the crunch he had his old guard out there so i don't expect miracles in terms of team selection. if there is an older guy who is better he will play the majority of key games. Which in the world of the IRFU brains trust is all of them!

Swan Curry

Swan Curry wrote: »

Putting our best winger at 13 and our second best outhalf at 12 would certainly make me sick.

I don't doubt that Bowe is our best winger and trying him a centre would be a risk but we have no replacement for BOD but have a good stream of wingers. Bowe played centre for the Lions and the Osperys. The lines he takes and constantly turning up in midfield make it likely he would make a good centre. I feel he's wasted on the wing since he's such a big man and has great hands.

bilston

If BOD is the best player available (which he still is IMO) then he plays. If someone manages to overtake him next season then they play. It's not rocket science.

The key thing is you don't pick him for sentimental reasons (I'd question whether he himself would want that) but equally you don't just drop him because the WC is two years away. Working to four year cycles is silly anyway. While winning a WC would be the pinnacle of the game the previously stated goal of the IRFU was to reach a SF. Now I dont know about the rest of you but winning the Six Nations is far more important to me than reaching a WC Semi Final and while things may change over the course of the season the current man to help us do that at 13 is BOD.

bilston

MAXFANTANA wrote: »

I'd like to see Bowe play 13 after BOD retires. A backline like this would be sick.
9. Murray
10.Sexton
11. Gilroy
12. Madigan
13. Bowe
14. Zebo
15. Kearney

Bowe at 13 could and would work IMO but its unlikely he will play there at all at Ulster. Also are you sure you're not just trying too hard to fit the Mad Dog into the team?!

Hagz

Listen, our priority should be winning the 6 nations. The last time we won it was 2009. Nothing else matters. Play the best players we have, and right now, Nobody touches O'Driscoll.

Teferi

It is as simple as this:

Question: Is BOD the best 13 we have available?
Answer: Yes.

Therefore he should not be dropped for the big games.

This does not mean we shouldn't start planning for the future either and I believe Joe will do this.

.ak

The future centre partnership will be two Ulster men of some sort of combo.

But for this season it's BOD all the way, with hopefully some hopefuls getting some game time in the AIs, and some cameos in the 6N.

jm08

Since he was offered a contract and agreed to stay on, it would be terrible if he was dropped now, though if there is a win over the All Blacks in the autumn (hopefully) he might want to bow out internationally on a high and that would be great.

I don't think there is too far ahead of the posse now (even though its hard to compare him to anyone else because no one else has really got a chance to step up). In some facits like defence he is still the best and his work as an extra flanker, but his attack is nothing what it was even 2 years ago and I believe he made one linebreak in the 6Ns.

As an aside, I came across this article from a NZ website on Warren Gatland (seems to be someone trying to get Gatland back to NZ) about why he dropped BOD for Davies.

I did not agree with dropping O'Driscoll for the final Lions test, but here is an insight into Gatland's thinking. Yes, we know that he wanted Jonathan Davies's left foot, he has already explained that. But in the second test, O'Driscoll was barking Davies out and the younger man was shrivelling. Johnny Sexton was also not at his best. Gatland is prepared to take the hard calls, if he thinks it's right for the team. He did not take Shaun Edwards, his right-hand man for 10 years, to Australia because he thought it was best for the team. That was an incredibly difficult conversation for him.

He then dropped O'Driscoll because he thought the senior statesman was cowing the men inside him. Gatland wanted Sexton to step up. He wanted Davies to play like he can. And the best way he saw was to drop O'Driscoll.

The rest of the article is here.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/8916219/NZRU-need-to-show-some-love-for-Gatland

Paul Smeenus

That's quite an insight, and a quality of article that's rare.

However, it includes an implicit criticism of BOD, so don your tin foil hats!

jamiedav2011

It's an article from NZ, heavily praising Gatland, from a writer who fairly heavily criticises Irish rugby. But in any case, there's no actual insight into Gatland's thinking, just a few suppositions from the writer!

The only example of this I saw was BOD's look at Davies after the AAC try, which was certainly warranted!

Don't know how it's relevant to this thread though, unless you're saying BOD is a bad influence on younger players now?