Democracy vs Secularism

recedite

A Day of Rage scheduled for today. The Muslim Brotherhood are willing to die as martyrs. The army are willing to oblige them.
Its not gonna be pretty.....

robindch

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You could answer the questions you've ignored if you like?

In the wake of what was an inevitable bloodbath on civilians carried out by the secularist-backed military coup against the democratically-elected government do you stand by your earlier statements?

Is a democratically elected President attempting to handpick his state's judges really more "awful" than massacring women and children?

A: If you're asking "Do I still believe that it's better to depose peacefully an elected leader (allegedly elected via fraud, who was heading towards a dictatorship at speed and who's using an especially toxic form of religion to divide and rule, and then guaranteeing to hold fresh, fair elections) than it is to permit the same man to enact a dangerous dictatorship?" then the answer is "yes". The answer to your inevitably twisted question above, is of course, "no". If you can't see the difference between my position and your silly misrepresentation of it, then try have a read of it again.

B: If you're asking "Do I still believe that it's better to depose peacefully an elected leader (allegedly elected via fraud, who was heading towards a dictatorship at speed and who's using an especially toxic form of religion to divide and rule, and then guaranteeing to hold fresh, fair elections) than it is to permit the same man to enact a dangerous dictatorship?" then the answer is "yes". The answer to your inevitably twisted question above, is of course, "no". If you can't see the difference between my position and your silly misrepresentation of it, then try have a read of it again.

And before you ask, yes, of course I utterly condemn the army-inspired massacre on Wednesday, just as I condemn what's likely to be further MB-inspired violent deaths today.

BTW, just now, the poll has had 26 votes and the thread has had 3930 views for a vote to view ratio of 0.7% - quite possibly one of the lowest ever on boards. This should give you an indication of how far are your faulty beliefs about secularism from the mainstream here.

Brown Bomber

gaynorvader wrote: »

My point was secularism is never anti-democracy. Organisiations who are secularist can be anti-democracy, but that's different.

Is what you are saying is that no true secularist would do such a thing? Where have I seen that same argument used before ...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Point hsa probably been made but a Statecan both be secualr and democratic at the samne time.

Eg - Ireland.

gaynorvader

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Is what you are saying is that no true secularist would do such a thing? Where have I seen that same argument used before ...

That's not even close to the point I'm making. I'm saying that you can have a secular democracy, secularism is not inherently anti-democracy. You seem to be saying that secularism is causing the military to be anti-democratic or whatever.

Sarky

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Is what you are saying is that no true secularist would do such a thing? Where have I seen that same argument used before ...

Do you enjoy the whooshing sound of points zooming straight over your head?

BuilderPlumber

Secularism

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Point hsa probably been made but a Statecan both be secualr and democratic at the samne time.

Eg - Ireland.

The term democratic seems to be abused. Very few states if any truly are. Ireland has made policies suited more to the banks, political class and high up civil servants than to the people. Ireland has moved from religious to pretty secular. though some issues like pubs closing on good friday and christmas remain.

Most states call themselves democratic. Even North Korea! None will admit they are anything else. All have an elite they will protect either with guns and violence or with a policy of cutbacks and negativity (when people are not restless). I would not trust any country's regime with regard to turning violent if cornered!

Brown Bomber

gaynorvader wrote: »

That's not even close to the point I'm making. I'm saying that you can have a secular democracy, secularism is not inherently anti-democracy. You seem to be saying that secularism is causing the military to be anti-democratic or whatever.

I'm not saying that. What I am saying is -- and this is clearly undeniable at this point --
is that in the advancement of the secular agenda the secularists have turned against, and ultimately destroyed democracy in Egypt. I just found it amusing for you to say that no true secularist would be anti-democratic and made light of it.

While I accept people being far less aware of the ongoings in Egypt than me, I've lived in Cairo and have regular contact with friends there it's not so amusing to have been proven to be correct as the true nature of the bloody secularist putsch as it has transpired and yet people are still in denial.

For example. Robin is still bleating on about these so-called "corrupt" elections having being rigged by the Muslim Brotherhood despite me explaining the inanity of his conspiracy theory - the military i.e. the MB*s sworn enemy for decades were in control of the elections.

Brown Bomber

69% of Egyptians polled against the Military coup.

http://www.ecmeg.com/

gaynorvader

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not saying that. What I am saying is -- and this is clearly undeniable at this point --
is that in the advancement of the secular agenda the secularists have turned against, and ultimately destroyed democracy in Egypt. I just found it amusing for you to say that no true secularist would be anti-democratic and made light of it.

{...}

I'll say it again. Calling them secularists is disingenuous. They have not done these abominable things because they're secularist. Nor does them doing these things make them any less secularist. They are true secularists, but the acts they have committed are abhorrent. It's not like the soldiers in the crusades were any less religious or the Spanish Inquisition were any less religious or the recent bombings of the twin towers were any less religious in purpose. It does not mean that all religious people are violent extremists. Far from it.

Brown Bomber

Why are Egyptian Liberals Celebrating a Massacre?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rRPVsacdro

Why indeed. Hopefully some here will watch this. It will be a good education.

fisgon

Not sure why anyone is giving any credence whatsoever to this totally bogus poll. It is simplification in the extreme to see the choice as between Democracy and secularism in Egypt. The poll sets up a false dichotomy that doesn't exist in practice. There is no necessity to choose either, or.

The truth was that this bloodshed has been driven by the army, which is a state within a state, and was done so that they could protect their economic and political interests. Like all armies anywhere, they are terrible at governing. They are not in any way "secularists", they are simply brutally self-interested.

recedite

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not saying that. What I am saying is -- and this is clearly undeniable at this point --
is that in the advancement of the secular agenda the secularists have turned against, and ultimately destroyed democracy in Egypt.

There is some truth in this, but there are really three main competing camps, not just two; The army (secularist undemocratic) , the Cairo based revolutionary mob (secularist and democratic) and the MB mob (islamist undemocratic)
The MB used the democratic process to gain a foothold in power, and then immediately started to dismantle democracy and replace it with theocracy.
The secular revolutionaries ousted both Mubarrak and Morsi. Each time the army stood back and watched to see how they got on, before eventually siding with them after they had already gained the upper hand. I think everyone will agree that it is incumbent on the army to intervene on behalf of the majority group, in order to prevent an all out civil war. The only dispute we have is over which mob is in the majority.

In the Al-Fatah mosque stand-off over the last few days, RTE and others were treating the English speaking family of a Dublin based imam who were trapped in the mosque as if they were independent reporters. The situation was described as the army/police "laying siege" to the mosque.
IMO a large number of MB people had been venting their rage in Cairo (many bussed in from rural areas) and they had been chased to the mosque by a local mob who wanted them out. The army were attempting to defuse the situation by offering the MB safe passage out. All the film footage shows the angry mob outside.

The Egyptian army itself is unlike a western army in that it has its own sources of funding and its own agenda, ie self preservation and self interest. It is known to receive funds from the USA, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and I wouldn't be surprised if Israel was paying a few shekels too.
So far the army has been the cleverest player in all this, but I would not rule out either of the two mobs gaining political control in the near future. Only one of them is committed to democracy in the long term though, and its not the MB.

robindch

The Times of India reports on a study carried out by an islamic university in Cairo about the rulings issued by the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis.

Summary - women are to be punished for swimming in the sea, should not turn the air conditioner on when they're the only person at home, should not go to schools more than 25k away, should not partake of sex with their clothes off (also applies to men), should not touch cucumbers or bananas, should breastfeed unknown men if they wish to stay in their presence (later retracted), should be used ass human shields and get married at the age of ten. Other rulings are equally enlightened.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/fatwa-al-azhar-university-cairo-women-swimming-in-sea-adultresses/1/326883.html

Times of India wrote:

"When a woman goes swimming, as the word for sea is masculine, when "the water touches the woman's private parts, she becomes an 'adulteress' and should be punished." - Summary of a report titled "The misguided Fatwas of the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis", as published in the Al Masry Al Youm.

A report by a committee set up by Al Azhar, one of the oldest and most prestigious Islamic universities in Cairo, to study the fatwas issued by the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis reveals how Islamists view women.

The findings of the committee's report were published in the Egyptian newspaper Al Masry Al Youm. In all, the committee studied 51 fatwas issued by the Brotherhood and the Salafis during President Mohamed Morsi's tenure.

According to the report, "the fatwas issued by both groups (the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis) regard women as strange creatures who are created solely for sex. They considered the voices of women, their looks and presence outside the walls of their homes an 'offence'. Some even went as far as to consider women as a whole offensive." Another fatwa prohibited women from "eating certain vegetables or even touching cucumbers or bananas", due to their phallic imagery which could lead women down the wrong path. Another fatwa directed women to "turn off the air conditioners at home in the absence of their husbands as this could indicate to a neighbour that the woman is at home alone and any of them could commit adultery with her".

Another fatwa orders that girls as young as 10-years-old be married "to prevent them from deviating from the right path". Another prohibited girls from going to school more than 25km away from their homes. A strange one said that a couple's marriage would be annulled if they copulate with no clothes on. Interestingly, one fatwa which made headlines all over the world was issued by the Al Azhar university which called for women to "breastfeed male acquaintances thereby making them relatives and justifying their mixed company". The fatwa was, however, later retracted.

At the same time, some of these fatwas also sanctioned the use of women as human shields during violent demonstrations and protests.

The Gatestone Institute, in an earlier report, had said that some of the fatwas issued by the Brotherhood and Salafis during Morsi's tenure advocated the destruction of the pyramids and sphinx, the scrapping of the Camp David Accord, killing anyone who protested against ousted Egyptian president Mohamed Morsi, forbidding Muslims from greeting Christians, forbidding Muslim cab drivers from transporting Christian priests, forbidding TV shows that mock or make light of Islamists; and forbidding women from marrying any men involved with the former Mubarak government.

gaynorvader

robindch wrote: »

The Times of India reports on a study carried out by an islamic university in Cairo about the rulings issued by the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis.

Summary - women are to be punished for swimming in the sea, should not turn the air conditioner on when they're the only person at home, should not go to schools more than 25k away, should not partake of sex with their clothes off (also applies to men), should not touch cucumbers or bananas, should breastfeed unknown men if they wish to stay in their presence (later retracted), should be used ass human shields and get married at the age of ten. Other rulings are equally enlightened.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/fatwa-al-azhar-university-cairo-women-swimming-in-sea-adultresses/1/326883.html

What the actual f***?!

Penn

Secularism

"...should breastfeed unknown men if they wish to stay in their presence (later retracted)..."

Oh, they retracted that? Well good to see they have some semblence of common sense.

"...should be used as human shields..."

My previous statement can now be classed as "(later retracted)"

Seriously, what the f*ckity f*ck?!

jank

Meanwhile the courts have upheld a ban on membership of the Muslim Brotherhood. With that in toe jailing people is easy no matter what their political persuasion. Public gatherings and demonstrations are now also banned.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-28/egypt-court-jails-women-and-girls-over-brotherhood-protest/5123576

An Egyptian court has handed heavy prison sentences to 21 females, including seven girls under the age of 18, for being members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The military government in place since the ouster of Islamist president Mohammed Morsi has banned the brotherhood, deeming it a terrorist organisation.

The government is also cracking down on protests, with a new law banning public political gatherings of more than 10 people without a police permit.

The women and girls were arrested while taking part in a protest in the Mediterranean city of Alexandria last month to demand the reinstatement of Morsi.

The group stood inside a large cage as they faced court in the city, and were found guilty of several offences related to the protest.

Seven girls aged 15 and 16 are due for release when they turn 18.

The rest of the group - women aged 18 to 22 - were sentenced to 11-year jail terms.

Authorities also sentenced six men, said to be leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood, to 15 years in prison.

Yet where is the outrage of that? *tumbleweed*
People jumped on that anti MB bandwagon much too quick and are now fumbling in the dark in an effort to forget their support for the coup, a coup that jails teen age girls for supporting a political party. The military and MB are two sides of the same coin but at least I can see that...

BuilderPlumber

Secularism

It is very very hard to get a handle on the truth here with this. The anti-MB brigade of course want to make people believe they are the Taliban. Yes, extremist Talibanistic groups affiliated with al Qaeda do exist in Egypt (afterall, Zawahiri is Egyptian) but I understand they do not have good relations with the MB who are more moderate.

The MB on the other hand want to demonise the military and of course want to equate the current regime with the Mubarak one (which is actually almost true).

Evil has been done by both sides for sure, but who sanctioned what is not often clear. It is just amazing we are not seeing more Iraqs and Syrias but that is a good thing.

recedite

"breastfeed male acquaintances thereby making them relatives and justifying their mixed company"

Best Fatwa EVER

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

The Times of India reports on a study carried out by an islamic university in Cairo about the rulings issued by the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis.

Summary - women are to be punished for swimming in the sea, should not turn the air conditioner on when they're the only person at home, should not go to schools more than 25k away, should not partake of sex with their clothes off (also applies to men), should not touch cucumbers or bananas, should breastfeed unknown men if they wish to stay in their presence (later retracted), should be used ass human shields and get married at the age of ten. Other rulings are equally enlightened.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/fatwa-al-azhar-university-cairo-women-swimming-in-sea-adultresses/1/326883.html

....I'd suggest taking those with a grain of salt for the moment. There was a rake of nonsense put out during the MB's tenure, all of which turned out to be nonsense. Sex with the dead wife etc.

Brown Bomber

robindch wrote: »

The Times of India reports on a study carried out by an islamic university in Cairo about the rulings issued by the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis.

Summary - women are to be punished for swimming in the sea, should not turn the air conditioner on when they're the only person at home, should not go to schools more than 25k away, should not partake of sex with their clothes off (also applies to men), should not touch cucumbers or bananas, should breastfeed unknown men if they wish to stay in their presence (later retracted), should be used ass human shields and get married at the age of ten. Other rulings are equally enlightened.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/fatwa-al-azhar-university-cairo-women-swimming-in-sea-adultresses/1/326883.html

In other news Russia Today says "Putin greatest world leader of all time".

You fancy yourself as a sceptic right? Why don't you apply some scepticism? Don't you require links to these alleged fatwas? Don't you require the names of the scholars? Don't you require anything more than "India Today said Al Mousry Al Youm Said"

Here is an Al Mousry Al Youm editorial glorifying the military and calling for anti-elected government protests. The translation is not the best but this woman is saying that El Sis-i is so amazing that he should be allowed to have four wives if he wants and that Egyptains should be ready to be his slaves.

I've already mentioned the anti-Morsi vendetta in the media. It is obvious if you understand that the upper echelons of Egyptian sociery had to be close to Mubarrak as a matter of necessity to get and stay there.

Meanwhile in the real world