Sonny Liston

Maravilla33

cowzerp wrote: »

This is my point, he was faster than Liston and bigger and stronger, Liston was a horse of a man for his day and technically good for those times, his jab was his best weapon ând even this is superior in frank.

In man v man Liston was not elite, at his time he was, that time simply was weak and just before major improvements in boxing

I'm pretty sure he would be a horse of a man today. He possessed the third longest reach of all time at 84 inches. He had an 18 inch neck and his hands measured 15 inches round - the biggest of any HW champion. So he may not have been 6"7 but he was built like a tank. His dimensions would clearly stand up today.

I'm fairly confident you wouldn't find many who would rate Frank's jab ahead of Sonnys. Frank had a good jab alright but Liston's was legendary. Combine that reach with his power and delivery and you have a quality jab right there.

cowzerp

Maravilla33 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure he would be a horse of a man today.

Problem is he would be just 1 of loads now, back then he was a specimen bating small men.

Lelantos

cowzerp wrote: »

Problem is he would be just 1 of loads now, back then he was a specimen bating small men.

Even back then he wasn't a huge man, Ali is considered small by today's standards & he was a couple of inches bigger than Liston.
Liston could bang, he was an intelligent fighter & knew how to disassemble somebody in the ring. He'd never beat a Klitschko, but somebody like Bruno would have been easy pickings for the guy

Wild_Dogger

Liston didn't know his birth name of even how old he was ...... nobody knew.

They couldn't get gloves to fit his hands until he started making some money and they were taylor made.

Read some fascinating accounts of his time in prison, how he survived by taking on the top dogs on his floor.

Liston could burst a heavy bag on demand !

section4

I was reading a book by reg gutteridge and he interviewing sonny Liston. Reg had a wooden leg and he said to sonny, if your so tough let me see you do this with out flinching. Reg then stuck a knife into his wooden leg through his trousers. Sonny said ok, let me see you do this and turned round and punched the hardwood door and split it in half.

Frank Bruno would have no business in the ring with sonny Liston.
He was a protected fighter who had hand picked fights on the way up and even then he was beaten by bone rusher who only had about 12fights at the time, he was also badly rocked by jumbo Cummings who was an ex con who really was only an novice. The only reason frank Bruno won a world title was that he was British and Oliver mc call had a nervous breakdown. A peak Oliver McCall would have knocked Bruno cold never mind sonny Liston.

megadodge

section4 wrote: »

I was reading a book by reg gutteridge and he interviewing sonny Liston. Reg had a wooden leg and he said to sonny, if your so tough let me see you do this with out flinching. Reg then stuck a knife into his wooden leg through his trousers. Sonny said ok, let me see you do this and turned round and punched the hardwood door and split it in half.

Frank Bruno would have no business in the ring with sonny Liston.
He was a protected fighter who had hand picked fights on the way up and even then he was beaten by bone rusher who only had about 12fights at the time, he was also badly rocked by jumbo Cummings who was an ex con who really was only an novice. The only reason frank Bruno won a world title was that he was British and Oliver mc call had a nervous breakdown. A peak Oliver McCall would have knocked Bruno cold never mind sonny Liston.

No he didn't.

At least not when he was fighting Bruno. He had one when fighting Lennox Lewis. Wrong fight.

section4

Yes it was more obvious when he fought Lewis but he was still unwell when he fought Bruno, otherwise he would have beaten Bruno.

walshb

section4 wrote: »

Yes it was more obvious when he fought Lewis but he was still unwell when he fought Bruno, otherwise he would have beaten Bruno.

McCall wasn't a great HW. On Bruno's level, maybe slightly below.

section4

walshb wrote: »

McCall wasn't a great HW. On Bruno's level, maybe slightly below.

I would have my money on a peak McCall over a peak Bruno 9 times out of 10. But you have your opinion and I have mine, and that's ok.

walshb

section4 wrote: »

I would have my money on a peak McCall over a peak Bruno 9 times out of 10. But you have your opinion and I have mine, and that's ok.

Well, yes, we have opinions and views. I just never saw McCall as "clearly" superior to Bruno?

megadodge

section4 wrote: »

Yes it was more obvious when he fought Lewis but he was still unwell when he fought Bruno, otherwise he would have beaten Bruno.

And what proof do you have of this?

Besides the best chin in the history of boxing McCall was nothing special. Bruno was certainly more skilled. Stamina was the only reason mcCall would ever hope to beat Bruno. I fancied Bruno to win that night and would always have fancied him against McCall.

section4

megadodge wrote: »

And what proof do you have of this?

Besides the best chin in the history of boxing McCall was nothing special. Bruno was certainly more skilled. Stamina was the only reason mcCall would ever hope to beat Bruno. I fancied Bruno to win that night and would always have fancied him against McCall.

If he hit Bruno with the same punch he hit Lewis with that would be it.
I can't understand all this Bruno admiration here, I well remember his career and he was fed old men no hopers novices and he still got beat by bone crusher and stunned badly by Cummings. The only time ha had a fight where he was not almost certain to win was hits fights against, Tyson Lewis and McCall.

cowzerp

section4 wrote: »

If he hit Bruno with the same punch he hit Lewis with that would be it.
I can't understand all this Bruno admiration here, I well remember his career and he was fed old men no hopers novices and he still got beat by bone crusher and stunned badly by Cummings. The only time ha had a fight where he was not almost certain to win was hits fights against, Tyson Lewis and McCall.

That punch may have knocked anybody out.

walshb

section4 wrote: »

If he hit Bruno with the same punch he hit Lewis with that would be it.
.

By that logic McCall is the best HW ever. That shot could well KO any man, even McCall. McCall just wasn't all that skilled a HW. Apart from chin I see no real clear distinction that places him ahead of Bruno. Can you maybe point out areas where he is clearly superior?

section4

walshb wrote: »

By that logic McCall is the best HW ever. That shot could well KO any man, even McCall. McCall just wasn't all that skilled a HW. Apart from chin I see no real clear distinction that places him ahead of Bruno. Can you maybe point out areas where he is clearly superior?

Mega dodge said stamina was the only area that McCall could beat Bruno in, so I just replied with that statement to show that it was not the only way McCall could beat Bruno.
Bruno was a very robotic fighter, he was very strong but very rigid, he did not take a punch too well, McCall takes a punch very well, he would catch Bruno sometime, and you did not have to hit Bruno all that hard to hurt him, when hit cleanly Bruno seemed to freeze, happened a few times. I have no doubt a fit strong McCall would catch up with Bruno at some stage. What live fighter did Bruno beat, I mean a fighter who was on the way up and had not been knocked out or beaten before, not many. I was fed up listen to the hype at the time, I was work in London and I told the guys on the job that Witherspoon would beat Bruno, I knew he would, but they could not see it because they listened to the nonsense on the bbc. Bruno was lucky to be world champ, only he was British he would not have fot the shot at McCall. An American heavyweight with the same record would not have got the shot, because he would not have the same money behind him.

megadodge

section4 wrote: »

Mega dodge said stamina was the only area that McCall could beat Bruno in, so I just replied with that statement to show that it was not the only way McCall could beat Bruno.
Bruno was a very robotic fighter, he was very strong but very rigid, he did not take a punch too well, McCall takes a punch very well, he would catch Bruno sometime, and you did not have to hit Bruno all that hard to hurt him, when hit cleanly Bruno seemed to freeze, happened a few times. I have no doubt a fit strong McCall would catch up with Bruno at some stage. What live fighter did Bruno beat, I mean a fighter who was on the way up and had not been knocked out or beaten before, not many. I was fed up listen to the hype at the time, I was work in London and I told the guys on the job that Witherspoon would beat Bruno, I knew he would, but they could not see it because they listened to the nonsense on the bbc. Bruno was lucky to be world champ, only he was British he would not have fot the shot at McCall. An American heavyweight with the same record would not have got the shot, because he would not have the same money behind him.

Your argument in favour of McCall over Bruno would be fine, if we were discussing two fighters who never actually fought.

But they did.

And Bruno won!

I asked for proof of mcCall being unwell when he fought Bruno, you completely ignored the question. Why?

section4

As regards McCall being unwell, well in the first instance when McCall had the breakdown in the Lewis fight that was a result of a progressive deteriation of his mental health over a period of time, and if you watch the bruno fight and watch McCall before the start of the fight its clear to see he was not all there. During the fight on itv both the commentator and the expert panelists both commented that he seemed to have his mind elsewhere, had no desire to fight etc. I had also heard at the time through the boxing grapevine that he wasn't well and was doing drugs etc, which if you look at his biography was true.
Also Bruno should not have got a shot he was nowhere near the number one contender but because he was British and had money behind him I knew there must be something wrong with McCall when his backers were prepared to spend money to get or buy him his world title.

Now as to the fight, first of all the referee should have warned bruno for holding during the first few rounds , he got away with murder there, it was his only defence when McCall got close. In the last three rounds and especially in the last Bruno should have been disqualified for holding, yet he never even got a public warning, he would have been stopped in that last round only he was allowed to hold. And I suggest you view the state of Bruno in that last round and the condition how was in and you won't have to ask me how McCall would beat him. Even a sick McCall should have won thus fight if the rules had been adhered to, and he only really tried in the last three rounds. A fit committed mc call would walk all over Bruno.
They fought and Bruno got the decision against a sick man who would still have beaten him if Bruno was not allowed to hold.
I also watched the bone crusher fight, and Bruno was well beat and for a guy who is supposed to have so much power he could not intimidate or hurt bone rusher, bone rusher chased him all night, and remember bone crusher was basically a novice and had only about 13 fights and was about 29 cos he was a late starter.
Watch cummins hitting Bruno in the first round, he was gone if lawless and co had not come into the ring and basically carried him back to his corner he would still be in the middle if that ring.

As far as sonny liston and Bruno are concerned you are talking about two different class of fighter, liston was only beat 4 times, twice in strange circumstances by the supposed greatest heavy weight ever. Once by a guy called Marty Marshall which he revenges twice and once by leftist Martin when he was an old man,

Bruno on the other hand has been beaten and hurt even when matched against guys he was matched against by his backers to look goog. He never beat a live contender, ever. End off

cowzerp

section4 wrote: »

As far as sonny liston and Bruno are concerned you are talking about two different class of fighter, liston was only beat 4 times, twice in strange circumstances by the supposed greatest heavy weight ever. Once by a guy called Marty Marshall which he revenges twice and once by leftist Martin when he was an old man,

Bruno on the other hand has been beaten and hurt even when matched against guys he was matched against by his backers to look goog. He never beat a live contender, ever. End off

That's my point, The **** lads Bruno was beating would have been good back in Liston's day-Your judging both times as even, They wheren't at all-Boxing was pretty shiit back then.

I stick by my belief, If sonny with his then capabilities and knowledge of the sport fought Bruno with his knowledge and capabilities then Bruno wins.

If Bruno went back then with their knowledge of the skills of Boxing then Liston wins.

section4

cowzerp wrote: »

That's my point, The **** lads Bruno was beating would have been good back in Liston's day-Your judging both times as even, They wheren't at all-Boxing was pretty shiit back then.

I stick by my belief, If sonny with his then capabilities and knowledge of the sport fought Bruno with his knowledge and capabilities then Bruno wins.

If Bruno went back then with their knowledge of the skills of Boxing then Liston wins.

Wrong, with the best will in the world Bruno cannot take a hard shot cleanly to the chin, never mind a shot from one of the hardest hitters at heavy, he would get caught sooner rather than later.
Bruno would not be able to hurt liston sufficiently.
Also Bruno was very straight up and rigid, liston was a much more varied puncher and a much better athlete.

Who did Bruno beat that was live?
GFerries Coetzee, don't make me laugh he was well gone that's why the match was made, all Bruno opponents were carefully chosen for minimal risk, when he fought jumbo Cummings I think jumbo had lost 4 in a row.
McCall nearly knocked Bruno out and he was a sick man, and he held on illegally the whole fight because he can't fight in close, can you imagine what liston would do to him inside.
There is no comparison, I listed the men who beat liston, no one else even knocked him down.
Now list the men and records of men who knocked down and stunned Bruno and note the difference.

section4

I have just went through Bruno record just to refresh what I already thought and every live guy he fought beat him. He only beat guys who had been good once and were on the way down, very carefully selected opponents. Even at that jumbo cumming basically had him knocked out in the first round only he was carried back to his corner, and bone rusher was picked because he was basically a novice and he chased Bruno round the ring all night and then knocked him cold.

cowzerp

McCall was live even if it doesn't suit your argument, and Bruno wasn't getting floored by anyone, was wobbled and mostly stopped on his feet,

Liston was not a good inside fighter and had similar style to Bruno, which was good against the hams from that generation, the best then where mule, never mind the poor opponents.

Ali ko'd him with a tap, Bruno hit twice as hard as Ali.

megadodge

section4 wrote: »

As regards McCall being unwell, well in the first instance when McCall had the breakdown in the Lewis fight that was a result of a progressive deteriation of his mental health over a period of time,

Is this in your professional medical opinion?

Or is it just a hunch?
One that suits your arguement.

I had also heard at the time through the boxing grapevine that he wasn't well and was doing drugs etc, which if you look at his biography was true.

I wouldn't doubt for a moment that he was doing drugs at the time, just as I wouldn't doubt he was doing them when he KO'd Lewis or years later when nobody could still KO him, which makes his durability all the more incredible in my eyes. He has a very long, long history of drug abuse, so again you just throw it in there as if he was only doing them when he fought Bruno. Just to suit your arguement.

Also Bruno should not have got a shot he was nowhere near the number one contender but because he was British and had money behind him I knew there must be something wrong with McCall when his backers were prepared to spend money to get or buy him his world title.

His backers saw mcCall as Bruno's best possible chance of winning a world title, simply because he was very beatable, not because there was "something wrong" with him. They were right.

Now as to the fight, first of all the referee should have warned bruno for holding during the first few rounds , he got away with murder there, it was his only defence when McCall got close. In the last three rounds and especially in the last Bruno should have been disqualified for holding, yet he never even got a public warning, he would have been stopped in that last round only he was allowed to hold. And I suggest you view the state of Bruno in that last round and the condition how was in and you won't have to ask me how McCall would beat him. Even a sick McCall should have won thus fight if the rules had been adhered to, and he only really tried in the last three rounds. A fit committed mc call would walk all over Bruno.
They fought and Bruno got the decision against a sick man who would still have beaten him if Bruno was not allowed to hold.

If you think Bruno should have been disqualified, I guess you believe any boxer smart enough to hold after he's hurt should also be disqualified. This was the first fight Bruno showed a bit of 'smarts' and did exactly what any boxer with experience and 'cop on' would do in the same circumstances. If you think otherwise you don't watch much professional boxing. Holding when hurt is as normal as jabbing.

I also watched the bone crusher fight, and Bruno was well beat and for a guy who is supposed to have so much power he could not intimidate or hurt bone rusher, bone rusher chased him all night, and remember bone crusher was basically a novice and had only about 13 fights and was about 29 cos he was a late starter.

Bruno was a country mile ahead on points when caught in the last (the stamina problem again). All he had to do was stay up to win, but he was nailed. Obviously you don't rate Mike Tyson's power either as he couldn't dent Smith's chin for 12 boring rounds.

As far as sonny liston and Bruno are concerned you are talking about two different class of fighter, liston was only beat 4 times, twice in strange circumstances by the supposed greatest heavy weight ever. Once by a guy called Marty Marshall which he revenges twice and once by leftist Martin when he was an old man,

I never said anything about a Liston/Bruno fight. I was specifically referring to your comments on McCall/Bruno.

section4

megadodge wrote: »

Is this in your professional medical opinion?

Or is it just a hunch?
One that suits your arguement.

No, you may not like it but its the truth,
When you say some fighters china is that your professional opinion., thought not.



I wouldn't doubt for a moment that he was doing drugs at the time, just as I wouldn't doubt he was doing them when he KO'd Lewis or years later when nobody could still KO him, which makes his durability all the more incredible in my eyes. He has a very long, long history of drug abuse, so again you just throw it in there as if he was only doing them when he fought Bruno. Just to suit your arguement.

I said he wasn't well when he fought Bruno, I did not say that was wholly drugs, I said he clearly had a serious mental problem against Lewis which did not just happen that night, he was not right against Bruno, you may choose to ignore that.

His backers saw mcCall as Bruno's best possible chance of winning a world title, simply because he was very beatable, not because there was "something wrong" with him. They were right.

Frank Bruno during the years he had world title shots was never rated in the top 5 and only on a few occasions rated in the top 10, so how did he get so many title shots, certainly not on his ability. He got a shot against McCall because he was a British heavyweight who had the support of the British public and tv money, if he was an American heavyweight he would not have even got a shot cos he would have no money behind him cos he wasn't good enough. He bought a world title


If you think Bruno should have been disqualified, I guess you believe any boxer smart enough to hold after he's hurt should also be disqualified. This was the first fight Bruno showed a bit of 'smarts' and did exactly what any boxer with experience and 'cop on' would do in the same circumstances. If you think otherwise you don't watch much professional boxing. Holding when hurt is as normal as jabbing.

I watch professional boxing since 1975, I trained in many pro gyms in London, Thomas a Beckett, Wellington when it was going so I watch and visited professional gyms many times during my years in London, I watched Bruno training many times. Sparred many pros also during 70 and 80s. So I have watched a lot of professional boxing.
Now no one has a problem with a fighter holding maybe once when they are hurt but in the McCall fight Bruno was cling on for dear life over the last three rounds and persistently holding all through the fight, you won't get disqualified for fouling once or twice but you will get disqualified for persistent fouling to such an extent that you hold the others mans arms and won't let him fight. He was a disgrace he had been holding the whole fight and never got a public warning, he should have been disqualified in the last round.


Bruno was a country mile ahead on points when caught in the last (the stamina problem again). All he had to do was stay up to win, but he was nailed. Obviously you don't rate Mike Tyson's power either as he couldn't dent Smith's chin for 12 boring rounds.
Stamina problem my arse, he had a history of being stunned and standing like a puppet after being hit, and that's what happened here, check out the jumbo cummins fight, what happened there stamina in the first round.

He was a guarded heavyweight who fought old men and has beans who was never rated in the top five ever, and hardly ever in the top ten ,he would never have won a world title except he was British and had money behind him.

I never said anything about a Liston/Bruno fight. I was specifically referring to your comments on McCall/Bruno.

Iiiii

section4

cowzerp wrote: »

McCall was live even if it doesn't suit your argument,
I said he never fought a live contender, McCall was champ, and good money was paid to him to fight a guy who was not even rated in the top five. Money was paid because thy McCall wasn't himself. And anyway if Bruno had not been let away with holding the whole fight and especially the last round when he should have been disqualified he would have lost that fight.


and Bruno wasn't getting floored by anyone, was wobbled and mostly stopped on his feet,

Wobbled and stopped by a 13 fight 29 year old late starter in bone rusher, stopped by Tyson, stopped by Lewis, stopped by Witherspoon.
The guy had a problem when he got hit a good shot, he just froze and stood like a puppet. Anytime he fought a live guy he got stopped. He only ever fought old men bums and has evens apart from his title shot,
Remember chuck gardener,

Liston was not a good inside fighter and had similar style to Bruno, which was good against the hams from that generation, the best then where mule, never mind the poor opponents.

You really need st study a bit of boxing history and listen to a few learned commentators, liston beat all the guys rated in the top ten for years,
Bruno never beat anybody in the top ten except for McCall, he never fought a live contender. Bruno was never rated in the top five in all the years he was active, we're the ratings bodies all wrong all those years.

Ali ko'd him with a tap, Bruno hit twice as hard as Ali.[

The Ali fights were not normal. Bruno never stopped a live fighter ever, he was aright with old men, liston beat and knocked out all the live fighters of his day.

Did bone crusher floor him, did Tyson floor him, did Witherspoon floor him. Bruno