Arcade and Retro General Chat in Karkariko Village Tavern: Live Ocarina Music

o1s1n

Myrddin wrote: »

It's an interesting trend, but if you include the Wii, it changes drastically obviously.

Sometimes in data analysis you do remove extreme examples if you can justify a reason for it. It is after all just one upward spike on a downward trend.

Usually it would either be the removal of an error or else it was a special case which shouldn't be included.

You could debate the removal of the Wii as it was a bit of a fluke, absolute curve ball from Nintendo which they did just at the right time and got lucky... and the rest of the chart more accurately portrays where they're heading.

I guess as the Wii U lifecycle isn't over you can't really remove the Wii as the Wii U could go on to sell millions of more units.

Myrddin

I get what you're saying, but in this case it just strikes me as "Oh look, Nintendo have been on a downward slide for years...well except for that hugely successful thing they called the Wii which outsold everything around it".

CiDeRmAn

Perhaps we need to see steps to take the WiiU out of the same perceived price bracket as the PS4 and Xbox One.
Although it will cost them money it might give the system the kick in the tail it needs, plus of they can get good attachment of games at purchase of console they could insulate themselves from the effects of the price cut.
A physical release of Wii U Sports Club is a must as well.

Retr0gamer

It kind of ignores their handhelds as well.

o1s1n

The success of the 3DS really has taken away from the WiiU. It's sad how one franchise can obliterate another.

I'd love to support Nintendo and buy a WiiU, but feel like I'm getting more than enough of a Nintendo fix on the 3DS.

Myrddin

o1s1n wrote: »

The success of the 3DS really has taken away from the WiiU. It's sad how one franchise can obliterate another.

I'd love to support Nintendo and buy a WiiU, but feel like I'm getting more than enough of a Nintendo fix on the 3DS.

In a way, it's a shame the Wii U pad exists. Imagine if it hadn't, & Nintendo closely linked the Wii U & 3DS meaning you could use the 3DS for off-screen play, & use the Wii U to play your 3DS games on the big screen too

o1s1n

Now there's an idea!

If they released a stand alone WiiU which worked as a kind of wireless docking station for my 3DS at a lower price I'd be all over it.

CiDeRmAn

So you'd need to devise a way to use the 3DS as a Gamepad, with the big problem being the lack of a second stick, which would require patching existing games.
Also, are you going to sell it exclusively to 3DS owners or keep the option to sell a Gamepad too?
Is there processing done in the Gamepad or is it just a display that streams video with input data going the other way?
Interesting idea though, well done for thinking of it!

Oh ho, here's a rumour about just such a thing.

http://wiiudaily.com/2013/01/rumor-nintendo-working-on-catridge-to-allow-3ds-to-act-as-second-wii-u-gamepad/

Myrddin

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

So you'd need to devise a way to use the 3DS as a Gamepad, with the big problem being the lack of a second stick, which would require patching existing games.
Also, are you going to sell it exclusively to 3DS owners or keep the option to sell a Gamepad too?
Is there processing done in the Gamepad or is it just a display that streams video with input data going the other way?
Interesting idea though, well done for thinking of it!

The Wii U pad has been hacked afaik, & they've streamed Wii U content to other devices like tablets so the only processing going on would be the controller inputs & trasmission of them.

A 3DS XL, with a built in 2nd analogue stick, could have easily replaced the standard Wii U pad as a pack in device for a start. This would have been a very attractive bundle for €299.

They could sell a version then, without an XL in the box, for those who already own an XL. The selling feature would be you can off-screen play all Wii U content on your XL, at a pretty reduced price over the standard Wii U price. Would you buy this for €149/€169 if you already had an XL? Damn right you would.

It'll never happen, but this is the way they should have done it imo

CiDeRmAn

So, what sorry of price point would you set it at?
Assuming you already have the 3DS, €200, with the extra kit to hook up the handheld?
Does it really need the extra circle pad?

Myrddin

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Oh ho, here's a rumour about just such a thing.

http://wiiudaily.com/2013/01/rumor-nintendo-working-on-catridge-to-allow-3ds-to-act-as-second-wii-u-gamepad/

Ah, interesting! Though I still think they've missed a trick, this should have been how it was form the beginning. The fact the Wii U pad exists at all, kinda defeats the purpose of an XL as a controller.

Myrddin

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

So, what sorry of price point would you set it at?
Assuming you already have the 3DS, €200, with the extra kit to hook up the handheld?
Does it really need the extra circle pad?

There would have been two bundles:

1) Wii U & 3DS XL bundle - €299 {say €150 for the XL & €150 for the Wii U}
2) Wii U only {no controller, for those who owned an XL} - €150

Those would have been nice price points. And the fact is, it would really incentivise buying a Wii U too, which would have seen the sales figures quite possible much better than how they are now.

Again though, now that the Wii U pad exists, what would be the point of the above as you're forced to buy the Wii U pad with the Wii U so the costs goes up too high.

CiDeRmAn

But you can imagine the press from Sony and MS, prior to the WiiU introducing the second screen concept, making a big issue of a console needing a second console for control, the cost pushing into the €400/500 region, despite getting a state of the art handheld into the deal.
That said, imagine streaming 3D images from WiiU gameplay as well. All sorts of possibilities that the other formats can only dream of.
I guess we'll all have to wait and see, for sure Nintendo will be looking at all the options.

Myrddin

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

But you can imagine the press from Sony and MS, prior to the WiiU introducing the second screen concept, making a big issue of a console needing a second console for control, the cost pushing into the €400/500 region, despite getting a state of the art handheld into the deal

Well that'd be up to Nintendo marketing to put right, you could put the spin on it that not only are you getting a console, but your controller is something you can take on the go with you too...nobody else offers that. The cost couldn't need to be anywhere near €400/€500, that'd defeat the purpose. €299 for a combined bundle & watch them fly off the shelves. You then have a much bigger install base, to sell Wii U & 3DS software to, 3rd parties would be more interested, & with a combined account system, everything between systems would be inter-compatible.

All Wii U content playable on the 3DS XL, all 3DS software playable on the Wii U, combine all the accounts into one Nintendo account, hell, even transfer your Wii/Wii U VC content over to your 3DS to take with you on the go. All for €299, sign me up.

OwaynOTT

Myrddin wrote: »

I get what you're saying, but in this case it just strikes me as "Oh look, Nintendo have been on a downward slide for years...well except for that hugely successful thing they called the Wii which outsold everything around it".

And the ds sold massive amounts qs well.

CiDeRmAn

I thought the was just a cliche but the world really is full of people who wish I'll towards something for sport.
The amount of folk pouring scorn on Nintendo, their games output and the sales of their systems is amazing.
And most of it is pure made up on the spot, or based on someone else's opinion which was made up.
Nintendo own the handheld sector, and while the WiiU is disappointing in sales terms only a complete fool would be sounding out the death knell for the company, sadly there is no "minimum sense limit requirement" to post on a forum so we endure cabbages who insist Nintendo games are for kids and they're irrelevant in today's gaming landscape.

o1s1n

It does amaze me how much glee some people seem to take in the slow take up of the WiiU. I don't understand it.

In relation to that image I posted, it was purely aimed at a trend in their home console market. It is possible to analyze one division of a company only. (The success of the 3DS is in no way indicative of the validity of their home consoles).

It's kind of like putting up an analysis of Sony's home audio market and saying 'but you're missing the 3DS!' - well no, as that doesn't bear any weight with their audio equipment.

Sure, the 3DS is a lot more in line with their consoles, but it's still a different market.

I will concede that we are too soon into the WiiU's lifecycle to assume it's not going to sell, but as an overall trend of the last 30 years, it's a bit worrying to see. I do still think the Wii was an incredibly fluky one off blip that won't happen again. The casual market have their fancy smart phones now, I can't see them coming back for another console.

Anyway, all that rubbish aside, I really hope to feck the WiiU does pull out some magical recovery and this isn't a Sega-esque descent into Publishing only. I guess we'll at least probably always have them in the handheld market in some form.

Andrew76

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I thought the was just a cliche but the world really is full of people who wish I'll towards something for sport.
The amount of folk pouring scorn on Nintendo, their games output and the sales of their systems is amazing.
And most of it is pure made up on the spot, or based on someone else's opinion which was made up.
Nintendo own the handheld sector, and while the WiiU is disappointing in sales terms only a complete fool would be sounding out the death knell for the company, sadly there is no "minimum sense limit requirement" to post on a forum so we endure cabbages who insist Nintendo games are for kids and they're irrelevant in today's gaming landscape.

Folks with too much time on their hands or a chip on the shoulder about who knows what.

Anyone who cares to spend even a few minutes researching knows that there's a ton of Nintendo content for all ages - and the fact a game can be enjoyed by kids and adults alike is to be admired. But Nintendo only have themselves to blame for the kiddie perception and any lack of recognition the Wii catalogue got - their marketing is woeful imo.

Also, I wouldn't call Sony and Microsoft's contribution to gaming as "another box, more platforms for the same old crap" - that's rubbish to be fair.

Mr.Saturn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Also WiiU has only been on sale for 1 year. It might struggle to reach Gamecube levels though, Gamecube sale dropped off spectacularly very quickly, same could happen to WiiU.

Actually, knew I meant to post something recently. Jamisonia on Racketboy pointed me in the direction of a very good retrospective on the GCN by one Emily Rogers.

http://www.dromble.com/2014/01/07/dolphin-tale-story-of-gamecube/

It is very, very detailed, and it'll take a bit to get through, but it collates all the key bits on the dev, release and legacy; covers everything from Miyamoto's disappointment in-depth, with lots of excerpts from the man himself, to the curious case of the Wiimote's original patent being that of a GCN add-on. I can't recommend it enough, even for those 'in the know'; I've been an avid GCN fanboy for a couple years now, and it still threw up quite a bit of new stuff. It even goes deep on the handle business.

A worrying still from its US launch gig.

o1s1n

Andrew76 wrote: »

Also, I wouldn't call Sony and Microsoft's contribution to gaming as "another box, more platforms for the same old crap" - that's rubbish to be fair.

While it's not a 100% true statement, I'd agree with a large part of it. Both are seriously lacking innovation.

I don't think you're going to see true innovation from either of them until the market properly pushes towards VR.

Myrddin

o1s1n wrote: »

While it's not a 100% true statement, I'd agree with a large part of it. Both are seriously lacking innovation.

But apart from control input, what more innovation can a console deliver in terms of hardware? VR, yes but they need to fit into a price point. Motion control has been done to death now & if I never had to pick up a Wii mote again it'd be too soon. All they're there to do is provide you with a gaming experience, & I'm not sure what's left to expand upon...headsets aside.

If anything, the One is at least trying something with the tv integration. Not my cup of tea at all, but it's expanding upon what consoles have been creeping towards for a while now with web players & apps etc.

The only innovation I'd like to see from the new generation, is gaming innovation/software...& it's way, way too early to snub them just yet imo

Andrew76

o1s1n wrote: »

While it's not a 100% true statement, I'd agree with a large part of it. Both are seriously lacking innovation.

I don't think you're going to see true innovation from either of them until the market properly pushes towards VR.

Sony and MS might not innovate as much as Nintendo (they have less experience in the gaming field and other business interests too) - but calling the content available on their systems "crap" is plain wrong.

Also, some of the "innovation" from Nintendo I can certainly live without (maybe I'm in the minority);

- Wii: Motion controls can bugger off.
- 3DS: 3D that most folks don't use - either because a game doesn't utilise it, kills the battery, kills your eyes. How many games really benefit from the unique selling point of the machine?
- WiiU: a giant tablet controller, one per machine.

Now the above isn't Ninty bashing - they made some of my favourite games and machines of all time - they're just not the be all and end all of gaming.

Hopefully they and Sony and MS will be around the gaming scene for a long time to come.

Retr0gamer

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

Actually, knew I meant to post something recently. Jamisonia on Racketboy pointed me in the direction of a very good retrospective on the GCN by one Emily Rogers.

http://www.dromble.com/2014/01/07/dolphin-tale-story-of-gamecube/

Gave it a read ages ago. Really great article and so indepth as well.

Andrew76 wrote: »

- WiiU: a giant tablet controller, one per machine.

I can't disagree with you more there. I think it's a wonderful innovation that just isn't get the use that it should. If you've played the multiplayer mode of ZombiU you'd see the potential in it. One player with the Pad is basically the dungeon master and puts down the obstacles in the other players path. If only other developers, especially Nintendo, could grasp the potential the pad can bring and really use it. The dungeon master use has just so much potential.

johnny_ultimate

You see the same innovation argument with phones every time a new one is released. There's always people wondering where the innovation is in this incremental upgrade of an iPhone, Nexus or Galaxy. And while I always welcome innovation - and I very much value Nintendo's ambition and imagination in that regard - when it comes to technology eventually you do end up with a process of refinement and modest evolution as opposed to complete revolution. As innovative as the Gamepad is in some regards, has it changed the way we play games? Not really, let's be honest, a few imaginative implementations aside. Same with the 3D of the 3DS - even in games where it's well utilised or adds something to the aesthetics / gameplay, you can still happily live without it. Indeed, Nintendo even dictate that the 3D can't be integral to the gameplay: and the 2DS offers a very literal interpretation of why not. Kinect, another hugely ambitious idea, has also failed to come to life in most respects, and I'm sure is pretty much actively rejected by most people here.

We will see significant gaming hardware innovation somewhere - the Oculus Rift being the current great hope (although funnily enough Nintendo have already been there :pac:) - but for every revolution there's 1,000 failures or ideas that fail to truly take off. How many consoles, even great ones, have been completely innovative anyway? The PS2, one of the all time greats, was little more than a more powerful refinement of its predecessor. Not every single console can be a brave new world: ultimately, you get to the point where everything works so fundamentally well, that a technological upgrade and some general refinement is incredibly valuable. The PS4, for example, is a fuller realisation of many of the ideas that didn't quite become fully formed on PS3 (say, the online features). That's still important. Not to discourage innovation, and I hope Nintendo continue to release innovative machines, but we can't just dismiss a more straightforward hardware upgrade right off the bat - heck, the likes of the Megadrive or SNES one could argue sort of slotted into that category anyway. How do you improve a smartphone, or a controller? More often than not, it's not going to be a very radical answer.

It's what people do with the hardware, whether that's a new form of controller or simply a more powerful box, that matters. Funnily enough, I'm not sure how long it's been since Nintendo released a truly groundbreaking game (Mario Galaxy maybe?): in many cases they've just been honing and remixing a core formula for decades now. I still think their games show enough imagination and energy that that barely matters, and it's almost as if some their franchises manage to improve on near perfection in ways both subtle and obvious. But honestly I also think Nintendo have kind of been behind the curve when it comes to some aspects of gaming innovation, such as advancing the way stories are told in games. A Link Between Worlds, for example, is a superb game, immaculately crafted, but it's a whole lot less forward thinking and ambitious than something like Papers Please or Gone Home. I would really love to see Nintendo create something entirely new: while I will never agree with the naysayers who dismiss Mario right out of hand, I do think they have a point when they wonder "where's the completely new Nintendo IP?".

moonlighting

Nintendo World Championships cartridge making the headlines again.
cant understand the fascination with that game.
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2014/01/nwc-gray-mario/

DinoRex

The best thing about the WiiU so far for me is the fact that it's the only console that isn't afraid to actually use colours.

Remember colours? Colours are great!

Retr0gamer

DinoRex wrote: »

The best thing about the WiiU so far for me is the fact that it's the only console that isn't afraid to actually use colours.

Remember colours? Colours are great!

I have to agree. Look at all the new games on the PS4 and XBox One. I can safely say that Mario 3D World and Pikmin 3 are far better looking games than either.

Retr0gamer

Well I'm hoping Nintendo are working on something that really justifies the Gamepad, remember the touch screen on the DS was a gimmick for well over a year until Canvas Curse arrived and opened the floodgates for touch screen controls on the system. Unlike 3D it actually does have potential as a gameplay device.

As for the PS2 only being a refinement at what came before, I actually see that console as a massive step backwards in terms of other consoles at the time. Only two controller ports, blasphemy!

DinoRex

And I really love the little splash screens that pop up when a game is loading. Really make you realise how cool a HD TV is.

I'd love to see more games that take advantage of asymmetrical gameplay... they could also look to the current world of board games for some great ideas to implement the gamepad.

johnny_ultimate

Ermm...

DinoRex

A huge percentage of those screens is grey and cyan. And the greens are washed out.

johnny_ultimate

A few more so... (I love colourful games too, but it's rubbish to suggest the WiiU is the only console offering them )

STG.Otaku

moonlighting wrote: »

Nintendo World Championships cartridge making the headlines again.
cant understand the fascination with that game.
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2014/01/nwc-gray-mario/

It's about the historical significance.

eddhorse

http://youtu.be/jo-uuawy9Ok

Shovel Knight hits PC, Wii U, and 3DS on March 31, which should be good news if you've been itching for some high quality retro-platformin' action. Also, there's a lovely new trailer for you to watch above. Enjoy!

o1s1n

Myrddin wrote: »

But apart from control input, what more innovation can a console deliver in terms of hardware? VR, yes but they need to fit into a price point. Motion control has been done to death now & if I never had to pick up a Wii mote again it'd be too soon. All they're there to do is provide you with a gaming experience, & I'm not sure what's left to expand upon...headsets aside.

If anything, the One is at least trying something with the tv integration. Not my cup of tea at all, but it's expanding upon what consoles have been creeping towards for a while now with web players & apps etc.

The only innovation I'd like to see from the new generation, is gaming innovation/software...& it's way, way too early to snub them just yet imo

But where did I say I was just talking about hardware?

I'm talking about the whole package. So far, the XBox One and the PS4 to me are just the XBox 360 and PS3 rebranded.

Same controllers. 90% the same games. Same whole idea. It's seriously tiresome at this point and simply just not very interesting.

Not that the WiiU is appealing to me very much either for that matter to be honest. But at least Nintendo are trying to add something with the tablet controller.

TV integration really the greatest innovation they can come up with in the last 14 years since the 360 was released? Really?

Andrew76 wrote: »

Sony and MS might not innovate as much as Nintendo (they have less experience in the gaming field and other business interests too) - but calling the content available on their systems "crap" is plain wrong.

I didn't say the content available was crap though. I said I agree with 'a large part of the statement' - most games I find on both systems are boring, repetitive - not 'crap', but not far off.

There are great games. But I haven't bought any of the new consoles now for the reasons Ciderdude mentioned in his comment, basically 'same thing, new box, fancier visuals' - eh, I'd rather keep my money thanks.

As far as experience, get out of it! :P Sony have been around in the gaming scene now since 1995 (and earlier than that from a development standpoint). That's plenty of time to figure the whole thing out. Hell, they were one of the first companies to really make it big with a disc based console - If that's not innovation I don't know what is.

Andrew76 wrote: »

Also, some of the "innovation" from Nintendo I can certainly live without (maybe I'm in the minority);

- Wii: Motion controls can bugger off.
- 3DS: 3D that most folks don't use - either because a game doesn't utilise it, kills the battery, kills your eyes. How many games really benefit from the unique selling point of the machine?
- WiiU: a giant tablet controller, one per machine.

Now the above isn't Ninty bashing - they made some of my favourite games and machines of all time - they're just not the be all and end all of gaming.

Hopefully they and Sony and MS will be around the gaming scene for a long time to come.

Motion controls had their moment, but it has passed. Wii Sports was great fun when it came out. People turn into anti motion control hipsters and bang on about how they're too cool for it. I was playing videogames with my parents and grandparents. That was an amazing experience I've never had before and for that alone, I'm glad motion controls existed.

The 3D on the 3DS, when done right, is stunning. It can add a whole new dimension to games. Sure, a lot of them are lazy, but some of them are excellent. It's definitely an innovation I'm glad to see Nintendo bring.

Just to finish off that rant (!), before someone says I'm 'getting old and jaded with videogames' - I'm really not. I play games now more than ever. Just the prospect of another generation of yet again, the same bloody thing with the odd sparse 'must play game' is driving me mental.

Maybe I was just spoiled growing up in an age where every new gen brought a huge leap, I dunno - am I just expecting too much?

eddhorse

Some good points there.

I think with Playstation Now, it's a look at a consoleless future, once broadband gets up to speed. All you need is a controller and your TV. Probably an app for each company. Actually maybe not even that, an app for each game developer. Who knows.

I agree with motion control, sore eyes from 3D, and haven't used the WiiU tablet yet.

Ed

Andrew76

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I can't disagree with you more there. I think it's a wonderful innovation that just isn't get the use that it should. If you've played the multiplayer mode of ZombiU you'd see the potential in it. One player with the Pad is basically the dungeon master and puts down the obstacles in the other players path. If only other developers, especially Nintendo, could grasp the potential the pad can bring and really use it. The dungeon master use has just so much potential.

That's a fair point - I haven't played that game and my impression of the tablet is from maybe 30 minutes use and anything I've seen online. It was just the size of it and looking away from the main display that just didn't feel right. And for any multiplayer games - are the second/third players not missing out having to use a Wii controller? If I'm playing a console then I personally prefer what I'd call a normal controller, GC/360/PS whatever, something that feels comfortable and has just enough sticks/buttons to do the job.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

...Funnily enough, I'm not sure how long it's been since Nintendo released a truly groundbreaking game (Mario Galaxy maybe?): in many cases they've just been honing and remixing a core formula for decades now....
I would really love to see Nintendo create something entirely new: while I will never agree with the naysayers who dismiss Mario right out of hand, I do think they have a point when they wonder "where's the completely new Nintendo IP?".

Great points JU, the Oculus Rift sounds genuinely exciting and hopefully it gets proper support from developers. It's one piece of hardware that I'd seriously consider spending money on PC upgrades to experience. Your two points above are what I first thought of when thinking about Nintendo and innovation - not their hardware but software. Specifically moving some of their franchises into the 3rd dimension with wonderful results. Is it fair to say Mario Galaxy is the last Nintendo game that felt truly refreshing (even if it's still Mario)? Will there come a time when there's nothing new they can bring to Mario or Zelda or Pokemon?

I'm not sure what online play is like on the WiiU but it was non-existent on the Wii, compared to the fun to be had with Xbox Live at the time anyway. Has it improved any or is online an afterthought for Ninty still?

o1s1n wrote: »

But where did I say I was just talking about hardware?

I'm talking about the whole package. So far, the XBox One and the PS4 to me are just the XBox 360 and PS3 rebranded.

They'll need a little more than 2 months to properly impress I reckon. The WiiU has been out much longer to be fair.

o1s1n wrote: »

I didn't say the content available was crap though. I said I agree with 'a large part of the statement' - most games I find on both systems are boring, repetitive - not 'crap', but not far off.

I was referring to Ciderman's post from the thread in the Games forum, not yourself good sir.

o1s1n wrote: »

There are great games. But I haven't bought any of the new consoles now for the reasons Ciderdude mentioned in his comment, basically 'same thing, new box, fancier visuals' - eh, I'd rather keep my money thanks.

I can see that side but I'm thinking more power, better online (hopefully) so what great things can they do with it. Also, I'm not going to spend my money on something different (i.e. the WiiU and it's Gamepad) when there's shag all worth playing on it - if were talking launch window as you are.

Now I've zero interest in the Xbox One because of the direction MS are going with the entertainment centre focus, but the PS4 interests me because it's powerful, seemingly easier to develop for and is indie friendly. Still not getting one til there's plenty of games that interest me though. Or unless The Last Guardian suddenly turns into a PS4 game!! :eek:

o1s1n wrote: »

As far as experience, get out of it! :P Sony have been around in the gaming scene now since 1995 (and earlier than that from a development standpoint). That's plenty of time to figure the whole thing out. Hell, they were one of the first companies to really make it big with a disc based console - If that's not innovation I don't know what is.

I guess what I was getting at was Sony and MS aren't solely focussed on games, yes they have monster gaming divisions but gaming doesn't drive them like it does with Nintendo.

johnny_ultimate

o1s1n wrote: »

Same controllers. 90% the same games. Same whole idea. It's seriously tiresome at this point and simply just not very interesting.

Not that the WiiU is appealing to me very much either for that matter to be honest. But at least Nintendo are trying to add something with the tablet controller.

TV integration really the greatest innovation they can come up with in the last 14 years since the 360 was released? Really?

The thing is many of the aspects of consoles at the moment simply work. There's been attempts to improve on the joypad / mouse & keyboard combo for many years now, and yet nothing - at least nothing practical - has been invented to offer the same precision. The Kinect or Wiimote effectively collapse if you ask them to do anything other than vague, general directions and waggles. Touchscreens are useless for anything other than games purposefully designed with broad swipes and taps in mind. Even with the WiiU, 95% of the time you're just using the Gamepad as a standard controller, just a really big one. Hell, it was the same as the Wii - something like Mario Galaxy used the buttons and nunchucks for pretty much everything, other than the odd (and supremely satisfying, it must be said) Wiimote wave to launch yourself into space.

It's all well and good saying these consoles should be shipping with truly innovative controllers. But has anyone come up with a better method of input yet? If they can't offer something measurably more accurate and precise, then I don't want them to break what isn't broken just for the sake of blind innovation. Maybe Valve will hit gold with their eccentric haptic feedback effort, but even that doesn't abandon the basic structure of a joypad. Perhaps technology simply isn't there yet for us to move away, which is not the fault of Sony or Microsoft!

I also think you're seriously underselling both the previous and new generation of consoles. There's a tonne of innovations since the launches of the 360 and PS3: online marketplaces, Playstation Plus (glorious, glorious Playstation Plus), Playstation Now, in-built video and picture sharing, online co-op, Kinect, the PS4 touchpad, voice commands etc... Some of these are better than others, granted, but there's been a lot of progress since the vanilla launches of the last gen consoles. One of the great things as well is that we no longer have to wait 7 or 8 years for the next update - it's just a download away. That could be why the new consoles don't seem like such a massive leap in terms of raw features - it's because their predecessors have evolved in hugely significant ways over the course of their respective lifespans. It's actually a real shock going back and playing a vanilla 360 - it's a different beast altogether.

That's not even going into the games side of things! Sony's commitment to indie games is the most encouraging thing about the console, and there's a whole range of original, ambitious games I'm looking forward to playing on it. On the WiiU? Well, Bayonetta 2 and the inevitable Nintendo franchise sequels. I'm sure there's more, but the WiiU is every bit as guilty as the other consoles in those regards. It's absolutely incorrect to say it's just the same old games elsewhere - yeah, you have your Call of Duty 17: Jingoism All The Way, but I don't think Sony particularly could have made it any clearer that they're completely committed to new experiences too. On PS Plus alone we've already gotten Resogun, Contrast, Don't Starve and shortly Outlast - four wildly different, interesting games in as many months.

The 3D on the 3DS, when done right, is stunning. It can add a whole new dimension to games. Sure, a lot of them are lazy, but some of them are excellent. It's definitely an innovation I'm glad to see Nintendo bring.

Well, it does literally add a whole new dimension, we can't argue with that :pac: Honestly though, the 3D is off 99% of the time I'm playing my 3DS, and I don't feel I'm missing much when I switch it on out of curiosity. A Link Between Worlds is the only time, along with maybe Mighty Switch Force, where it felt preferable to have it on thanks to the vertical layers that were built in to the gameplay and level design. But even then I'd call it a minor enhancement rather than a full on necessity, and that's without a doubt the most accomplished implementation of it I've seen. I personally don't feel 2DS owners are missing a whole lot!

Maybe I was just spoiled growing up in an age where every new gen brought a huge leap, I dunno - am I just expecting too much?

I have to be honest and say I think you are Don't get me wrong, I will always warmly welcome genuinely progressive innovation as vocally as I can. But I also think it's much more complicated than just expecting every update to hardware to be hugely different or revolutionary (going back to my smartphone point). We've reached a point where everything is much more incremental, having rushed past many of the major natural evolutions. It's a shame to say, but realistically I can't imagine any jump, even with VR, as huge as the 2D to 3D jump, which most of us experience firsthand in all its mindblowing glory. That can't happen again, the same way the silent to talkie film jump could only ever occur once. Elsewhere, it's going to take a serious genius to improve on the analogue stick, the arcade stick or the mouse. Plus, the simple fact we are all older, and naturally a new console will not seem as magical or mystical as it did when we were younger

Above all, no matter how ordinary or straightforward the hardware is, it's how it's used that makes it. If the One and PS4 have a handful of games as imaginative as Journey or Dark Souls, then it's safe to say those little black boxes will have more than earned their keep!

Retr0gamer

If you've been lucky enough to have used an Oculus Rift you'd realise it is a massive leap forward. No amount of graphical grunt the new consoles can bring to the table will trump just how immersive VR is, I'm hoping it becomes the game changer it deserves to be.

As for the joypad and it's evolution, the joypad has become more and more complex as it evolves and it's ended up scaring away everyone other than dedicated gamers. How is some one that can't even set the VCR supposed to deal with 10+ buttons, a d-pad and dual analog sticks. Even Sera won't play dual analog games.

I think that's where touch screens and the wiimote succeeded. They are easy to grasp and instantly understandable to the lay person. I think offering the same level of complexity in a more simplified manner is where user input should be going. The Wii kind of had the best of two worlds, the easy to understand wiimote but stick a nunchuk on and you had your more complex controller than worked really well.

Andrew76

Retr0gamer wrote: »

...How is some one that can't even set the VCR supposed to deal with 10+ buttons, a d-pad and dual analog sticks. Even Sera won't play dual analog games...

Are you even old enough to have had to tackle programming a VCR?? Way harder than learning to use a joypad of any kind!

In other news I see we have another update on that Sega book. Being a programmer by trade I love finding out about the techie side of games, this is pretty cool I thought - part of a spec doc for SoR (Cidey will just view it as something useful when the toilet paper runs out! ).

Myrddin

Andrew76 wrote: »

Are you even old enough to have had to tackle programming a VCR??

He probably grew up using VideoPlus

CiDeRmAn

Anyone play Proteus?
Is it worth getting on the Vita?

johnny_ultimate

I really enjoyed it on PC. Very short but very beautiful.

The Last Bandit

Myrddin wrote: »

He probably grew up using VideoPlus

Jayus, our first VCR was a top loader with the huge buttons !! Videoplus my backside...

Retr0gamer

Andrew76 wrote: »

Are you even old enough to have had to tackle programming a VCR?? Way harder than learning to use a joypad of any kind!

In other news I see we have another update on that Sega book. Being a programmer by trade I love finding out about the techie side of games, this is pretty cool I thought - part of a spec doc for SoR (Cidey will just view it as something useful when the toilet paper runs out! ).

Had to do a load of those last year for the game development course. Complete pain in the ass but they do really help later on in the coding. They are a great help for any software development.

The Last Bandit

What are you developing on Retro ?

o1s1n

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The thing is many of the aspects of consoles at the moment simply work. There's been attempts to improve on the joypad / mouse & keyboard combo for many years now, and yet nothing - at least nothing practical - has been invented to offer the same precision. The Kinect or Wiimote effectively collapse if you ask them to do anything other than vague, general directions and waggles. Touchscreens are useless for anything other than games purposefully designed with broad swipes and taps in mind. Even with the WiiU, 95% of the time you're just using the Gamepad as a standard controller, just a really big one. Hell, it was the same as the Wii - something like Mario Galaxy used the buttons and nunchucks for pretty much everything, other than the odd (and supremely satisfying, it must be said) Wiimote wave to launch yourself into space.

It's all well and good saying these consoles should be shipping with truly innovative controllers. But has anyone come up with a better method of input yet? If they can't offer something measurably more accurate and precise, then I don't want them to break what isn't broken just for the sake of blind innovation. Maybe Valve will hit gold with their eccentric haptic feedback effort, but even that doesn't abandon the basic structure of a joypad. Perhaps technology simply isn't there yet for us to move away, which is not the fault of Sony or Microsoft!

I do agree that there's definitely an element of 'if it ain't broke' - but do you not think this breeds a level of lazyness and apathy towards innovation too? Do you think we are now currently at the apex of videogame control design? I really don't think we are. We just seem to be at the apex of what is easiest to market and easiest to develop.

We saw it with the last few gens of Playstation controllers, they continued to use an outdated design for absolutely years which hadn't really changed much since the dual shock on the PS1.

Why? Well, it was as much part of their marketing and image as it was a controller. Not to mention it meant they didn't need to really put very much R&D into it either.

To be honest I'm actually very surprised they changed it up as much as they did with the PS4 (and am absolutely delighted to see it happen too!)

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I also think you're seriously underselling both the previous and new generation of consoles. There's a tonne of innovations since the launches of the 360 and PS3: online marketplaces, Playstation Plus (glorious, glorious Playstation Plus), Playstation Now, in-built video and picture sharing, online co-op, Kinect, the PS4 touchpad, voice commands etc... Some of these are better than others, granted, but there's been a lot of progress since the vanilla launches of the last gen consoles. One of the great things as well is that we no longer have to wait 7 or 8 years for the next update - it's just a download away. That could be why the new consoles don't seem like such a massive leap in terms of raw features - it's because their predecessors have evolved in hugely significant ways over the course of their respective lifespans. It's actually a real shock going back and playing a vanilla 360 - it's a different beast altogether.

You definitely have me there. I just don't personally find any of those innovations very interesting. So many it comes down to my own personal perceptions of the matter rather than what's actually going on.

It is very heavy on the selling/online marketing side of things, I really just don't find these interesting enough to be 'excited' about. Really don't care very much at all about about picture sharing, online co-op, marketplaces etc.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

That's not even going into the games side of things! Sony's commitment to indie games is the most encouraging thing about the console, and there's a whole range of original, ambitious games I'm looking forward to playing on it. On the WiiU? Well, Bayonetta 2 and the inevitable Nintendo franchise sequels. I'm sure there's more, but the WiiU is every bit as guilty as the other consoles in those regards. It's absolutely incorrect to say it's just the same old games elsewhere - yeah, you have your Call of Duty 17: Jingoism All The Way, but I don't think Sony particularly could have made it any clearer that they're completely committed to new experiences too. On PS Plus alone we've already gotten Resogun, Contrast, Don't Starve and shortly Outlast - four wildly different, interesting games in as many months.

If we do see a good stream of games coming out on the PS4, I'll be picking one up. As of now though - nothing's really tickling my fancy.

Resogun does look great, but I've enough shmups on existing hardware.

Don't Starve I already have on my PC, so it wouldn't really be a PS4 seller for me.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Well, it does literally add a whole new dimension, we can't argue with that :pac: Honestly though, the 3D is off 99% of the time I'm playing my 3DS, and I don't feel I'm missing much when I switch it on out of curiosity. A Link Between Worlds is the only time, along with maybe Mighty Switch Force, where it felt preferable to have it on thanks to the vertical layers that were built in to the gameplay and level design. But even then I'd call it a minor enhancement rather than a full on necessity, and that's without a doubt the most accomplished implementation of it I've seen. I personally don't feel 2DS owners are missing a whole lot!

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one!

I have the 3D on 90% of the time. The only times I'll switch it off is if it's becoming an uncomfortable experience for my eyes (happens in some games where it's badly implemented)

I've been absolutely loving the Sega 3D classics for example. There's just something excellent about 3D in 2D games. The way it enhances parallax scrolling, or the added depth it gives to games like Galaxy Force II. As someone who is really into 2D gaming I find this a very exciting addition as it adds a whole new ... I'll avoid using the word 'dimension' :pac: ... 'feel' to the game. To have something you've been playing for 20+ years suddenly feel fresh and new again is a great thing in itself.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I have to be honest and say I think you are Don't get me wrong, I will always warmly welcome genuinely progressive innovation as vocally as I can. But I also think it's much more complicated than just expecting every update to hardware to be hugely different or revolutionary (going back to my smartphone point). We've reached a point where everything is much more incremental, having rushed past many of the major natural evolutions. It's a shame to say, but realistically I can't imagine any jump, even with VR, as huge as the 2D to 3D jump, which most of us experience firsthand in all its mindblowing glory. That can't happen again, the same way the silent to talkie film jump could only ever occur once. Elsewhere, it's going to take a serious genius to improve on the analogue stick, the arcade stick or the mouse. Plus, the simple fact we are all older, and naturally a new console will not seem as magical or mystical as it did when we were younger

Above all, no matter how ordinary or straightforward the hardware is, it's how it's used that makes it. If the One and PS4 have a handful of games as imaginative as Journey or Dark Souls, then it's safe to say those little black boxes will have more than earned their keep!

The jump to VR is as impressive as the jump from 2D to 3D though. It's why I keep banging on about it so much

We have another huge jump like that in our hands, available for the taking. But what does the market do instead? Incremental steps as you said.

This is the main thing that's annoying me. It's like the gaming market is being stunted from progressing to the ultimate scenario of a fully immersed world because the status quo is to sit in front of your TV, with a standard shaped controller coming out of a black box.

Perhaps the real innovation I'm looking for is just going to be PC driven for the time being. Maybe I should go that way instead!

o1s1n

Andrew76 wrote: »

In the immortal words of Jay from The Inbetweeners;

'Frothing at the g*sh!'

Seriously cannot wait any longer for that book.

The Last Bandit

You should read "The Rise And Fall of Sega", its a fantastic insight into what tore the company apart.
Did you know Sega wrote the first emulator for a Nintendo console ?

Retr0gamer

The Last Bandit wrote: »

What are you developing on Retro ?

iPad at the moment and using Corona SDK but I need a developers license to get it on the machine, although I'm no where near that stage yet. Spent the last week writing collision detection and then rewriting it when I found it wasn't good enough