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A compulsory 'Broadcast tax' next on the list for homes in Ireland

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    #452
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    An opinion not widely shared here it seems.
    And?
    RTE's output has not changed despite losing 500 staff and access to 800 million. Does that not tell you anything?








    It's a review of PBS funding, and recommendations for changes to the same.
    The elephant in the room is that maybe a PSB service is not a model that can be sustained with the advent of the internet and that wasn't addressed in any credible or expert way.
    Most savvy people will not go to RTE news for content nowadays, but graze across many different sites and sources. So is it credible to claim that this is a neccesary service to fund for instance?


    I'd be charging you for the promotional benefit the adverts brought your business. That it takes 30 seconds is of no consequence to the benefits the ad accrues for you.

    Creative accounting eh?


    Well - that's your colours nailed to the mast.

    Are you saying there is another reality here?


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    #453
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And?
    RTE's output has not changed despite losing 500 staff and access to 800 million. Does that not tell you anything?
    I don't agree that the service is un-altered. It's been noticeably reduced.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The elephant in the room is that maybe a PSB service is not a model that can be sustained with the advent of the internet and that wasn't addressed in any credible or expert way.
    Most savvy people will not go to RTE news for content nowadays, but graze across many different sites and sources. So is it credible to claim that this is a neccesary service to fund for instance?
    Simply don't agree with the above. I listen to the news daily, and I consider myself relatively savvy.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Creative accounting eh?
    Not at all. Do you care how long it took to build your car, or are you simply concerned with how well it works for you? Same story here.


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Are you saying there is another reality here?
    Yep - an alternate to the one you suggest.


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    #454
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    I don't agree that the service is un-altered. It's been noticeably reduced.

    You notice the work of 500 people missing since 2011...are you serious?


    Simply don't agree with the above. I listen to the news daily, and I consider myself relatively savvy.
    If you only gather your news and opinion from RTE I can see where the problem is here tbh.


    Not at all. Do you care how long it took to build your car, or are you simply concerned with how well it works for you? Same story here.
    When I get a new car it is not my old one taken in and given back to me. Basically, a whole raft of people get paid to produce the new one, therefore it costs MONEY.



    Yep - an alternate to the one you suggest.

    So no government body has wasted public money? Is that the alternate reality you are living in?
    Might be time for me to opt out of this part of the debate.


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    #455
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You notice the work of 500 people missing since 2011...are you serious?
    Yes. The quality of programming is obviously reduced.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    If you only gather your news and opinion from RTE and can see where the problem is here tbh.
    Ah - a strawman argument - how refreshing!
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    When I get a new car it is not my old one taken in and given back to me. Basically, a whole raft of people get paid to produce the new one, therefore it costs MONEY.
    And placing an existing ad is effectively the same as rolling your existing car out for another spin. It takes 30 seconds, to place that ad - the value is in the distribution - not the 30 seconds.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    So no government body has wasted public money? Is that the alternate reality you are living in?
    Might be time for me to opt out of this part of the debate.
    Another strawman! Maybe so.


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    #456
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Yes. The quality of programming is obviously reduced.
    In two years? Ridiculous.

    Ah - a strawman argument - how refreshing!
    Absolutely not, you ignored the point made originally and triumphed the news source you listened to as a counter. You were the one avoiding the issue presented.
    There may be no need for the continued public funding of RTE news, is my point. If they think they can make it pay from advertising revenue, fair enough. The world doesn't depend on national broadcasters for their news anymore, there are many more, truly independent sources now that savvy people use, that's the reality.

    And placing an existing ad is effectively the same as rolling your existing car out for another spin. It takes 30 seconds, to place that ad - the value is in the distribution - not the 30 seconds.
    Which isn't charged for at a 30 second rate.


    Another strawman! Maybe so.

    Are you saying that there is no shameful waste of public monies through the semi-state and public bodies of this country or not?
    I am saying there has been btw, and that is why I suspect RTE has been no different.


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    #457
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    In two years? Ridiculous.
    Not at all. Cutbacks in programming are evident more or less immediately.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Absolutely not, you ignored the point made originally and triumphed the news source you listened to as a counter. You were the one avoiding the issue presented.
    There may be no need for the continued public funding of RTE news, is my point. If they think they can make it pay from advertising revenue, fair enough. The world doesn't depend on national broadcasters for their news anymore, there are many more, truly independent sources now that savvy people use, that's the reality.
    Sez you - but that's not reflected in where most people get their news from - that's the reality.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/tv-the-main-source-of-news-for-irish-people-but-websites-are-catching-up-477194-Jun2012/
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Which isn't charged for at a 30 second rate.
    Correct - they're not being charged at all.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Are you saying that there is no shameful waste of public monies through the semi-state and public bodies of this country or not?
    I am saying there has been btw, and that is why I suspect RTE has been no different.
    I'm saying there's been some shameful hyperbole from you, while attempting to put words in my mouth. You do like your strawman. don't you?


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    #458
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    QUOTE=alastair;86248145]You were compelled to pay it already. Nothing changes for you.[/QUOTE]

    I was:confused:

    even if I didn't own a telly?


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    #459
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »

    even if I didn't own a telly?

    You do own a telly.


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    #460
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Not at all. Cutbacks in programming are evident more or less immediately.

    RTE is noticeably diferent to how it was 2 years ago? 500 people different and -800 euro? Yeh right! Stop digging holes.

    Sez you - but that's not reflected in where most people get their news from - that's the reality.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/tv-the-main-source-of-news-for-irish-people-but-websites-are-catching-up-477194-Jun2012/

    Where did I say 'most' people? Only somebody not savvy would try and pull that one.
    PSB operates somewhat on the principle that it knows what is best for it's viewership. Maybe a government controlled news service is not in the best interests of the people, let the savvy people lead the way.



    Correct - they're not being charged at all.

    Says you, without any proof of that. My bet is that it is being charged for and taken from the licence fee.


    I'm saying there's been some shameful hyperbole from you, while attempting to put words in my mouth. You do like your strawman. don't you?
    What's hyperbolic about stating that there has been shameful waste in our semi-states and public bodies?

    You do love pulling the 'strawman' accusation, don't you?


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    #461
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    RTE is noticeably diferent to how it was 2 years ago? 500 people different and -800 euro? Yeh right! Stop digging holes.?
    I can keep repeating the same answer - but your ears are closed - fair enough.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Where did I say 'most' people? Only somebody not savvy would try and pull that one.
    PSB operates somewhat on the principle that it knows what is best for it's viewership. Maybe a government controlled news service is not in the best interests of the people, let the savvy people lead the way. ?
    You're some ticket. heh. :rolleyes: RTE isn't government controlled.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Says you, without any proof of that. My bet is that it is being charged for and taken from the licence fee.
    I provided you with proof that RTE promotes TV licencing at their own cost. Surely a savvy fellah like yourself wouldn't forget that fact?
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What's hyperbolic about stating that there has been shameful waste in our semi-states and public bodies?

    You do love pulling the 'strawman' accusation, don't you?
    I call it as I see it.


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    #462
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    I can keep repeating the same answer - but your ears are closed - fair enough.

    How does the change of quality reflect the loss of 500 personel and the saving of 800 million euro? It doesn't. Yes there may have been token changes but the fact is that a semi state body has been running for years with an excess of staff and funding available to it. That is WASTE of mine and your licence fee.
    Do I believe that RTE is running in an econimical and efficient way now...no I don't.


    You're some ticket. heh. :rolleyes: RTE isn't government controlled.
    That is an argument for another day, please deal with the one presented.
    Is there any credible reason to fund RTE News from public coffers, given the huge changes in how we access information in the modern age, changes that haven't even begun to slow down.

    I provided you with proof that RTE promotes TV licencing at their own cost. Surely a savvy fellah like yourself wouldn't forget that fact?

    Yes...it isn't free, as I have been saying all along. Now from where and how does this cost get paid? That is the question.

    I call it as I see it.
    No, you deflect and avoid and then invariably pull the 'strawman' card.


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    #463
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    How does the change of quality reflect the loss of 500 personel and the saving of 800 million euro? It doesn't. Yes there may have been token changes but the fact is that a semi state body has been running for years with an excess of staff and funding available to it. That is WASTE of mine and your licence fee.
    Do I believe that RTE is running in an econimical and efficient way now...no I don't.
    Thanks for your thoughts.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    That is an argument for another day, please deal with the one presented.
    Is there any credible reason to fund RTE News from public coffers, given the huge changes in how we access information in the modern age, changes that haven't even begun to slow down.
    Yes - yes there is. I'm sure a savvy fellah like yourself can figure them out.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Yes...it isn't free, as I have been saying all along. Now from where and how does this cost get paid? That is the question.
    Do you really want to hear again how 30 seconds an issue isn't really going to cost anything?

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    No, you deflect and avoid and then invariably pull the 'strawman' card, coming up will be an attack on my spelling an' grammar. Par for the course with you Alastair.
    And that's another strawman! You're on a roll!


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    #464
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Thanks for your thoughts.

    That's the avoidance bit done.

    Yes - yes there is. I'm sure a savvy fellah like yourself can figure them out.
    Naw, I can't Alastair, go on, climb down from your tower and tell us mere mortals. You listen to it all time, after all. You are an expert.

    Do you really want to hear again how 30 seconds an issue isn't really going to cost anything?
    And there is the deflection.


    And that's another strawman! You're on a roll!

    Quelle suprise. :rolleyes:
    You aren't gonna answer any hard ones...is that it?


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    #465
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    RTE.

    Charges for caviar.......... supplies sardines.

    Reduces amount of workers at the fish processing factory due to recession.

    Continues to charge for caviar........ still supplies sardines.

    Everyone who has a plate must pay for the sardines whether they like it or not.


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    #466
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    That's the avoidance bit done.
    You closed your ears to a consistent answer regarding this - so all that's left is the rant - best avoided.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Naw, I can't Alastair, go on, climb down from your tower and tell us mere mortals. You listen to it all time, after all. You are an expert.
    I thought you were the savvy one in this thread?

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And there is the deflection.
    If by deflection, you mean repeatedly reiterating the same facts?

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Quelle suprise. :rolleyes:
    You aren't gonna answer any hard ones...is that it?
    I've no interest in your hard ones. That's your business.


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    #467
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    mikom wrote: »
    RTE.

    Charges for caviar.......... supplies sardines.

    Reduces amount of workers at the fish processing factory due to recession.

    Continues to charge for caviar........ still supplies sardines.

    Everyone who has a plate must pay for the sardines whether they like it or not.

    And yet - they seem to like those sardines. Maybe you're just got quirky taste in fish? When did 160 euros a year become caviar money btw?


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    #468
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    The foolishness of trying to debate with somebody who believes 'RTE is not controlled by the government'.
    Silly me.


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    #469
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    And yet - they seem to like those sardines. Maybe you're just got quirky taste in fish? When did 160 euros a year become caviar money btw?

    "They" :confused:

    whose they?


    Subscription based If it's so popular.


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    #470
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »



    The elephant in the room is that maybe a PSB service is not a model that can be sustained with the advent of the internet and that wasn't addressed in any credible or expert way.
    Most savvy people will not go to RTE news for content nowadays, but graze across many different sites and sources. So is it credible to claim that this is a neccesary service to fund for instance?

    But public service broadcasting isn't only for savvy people while the grazing across sites and sources is only for those with an internet connection.

    Consider 2 options

    (1) Provide everyone in the country with a fast broadband connection at a price per year equivalent to the licence fee

    (2) Provide everyone in the country with public service broadcasting through RTE for the licence fee.

    (1) would cost much more money to the State than (2).


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    #471
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    alastair wrote: »
    Hopefully armed with something more than bluster?

    Hilarious. When it comes to bluster you are as good as anybody else.


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    #472
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The foolishness of trying to debate with somebody who believes 'RTE is not controlled by the government'.
    Silly me.


    And your evidence that it is?


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    #473
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    alastair wrote: »
    And yet - they seem to like those sardines. Maybe you're just got quirky taste in fish?

    You don't visit the TV forums very often do you?


    alastair wrote: »
    When did 160 euros a year become caviar money btw?

    When they plastered adverts on the tin..........

    When I can eat sardines for practically nothing elsewhere...........

    When my plate works just as well with meat and potatoes............

    Since one of the weekend workers at the canning plant by the the name of Marion F earns over 250, 000 a year, and she is absent half the time.


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    #474
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    "They" :confused:

    whose they?


    Subscription based If it's so popular.

    The Irish TV audience of course.

    It is popular, but that's not an argument for PPV.


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    #475
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Godge wrote: »
    And your evidence that it is?

    you're aware the actual govt are who are trying to impose this on the tax payers?
    Right?


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    #476
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Hilarious. When it comes to bluster you are as good as anybody else.

    So - no substance to your allegations then?


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    #477
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SamHall wrote: »
    you're aware the actual govt are who are trying to impose this on the tax payers?
    Right?

    You're also aware of the distinction between state-funded and government-controlled, yes?


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    #478
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    mikom wrote: »
    You don't visit the TV forums very often do you?

    Ah - my mistake. I didn't realise there was an elite forum of broadcast taste dictators operating on Boards.


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    #479
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    SamHall wrote: »
    you're aware the actual govt are who are trying to impose this on the tax payers?
    Right?

    There is a difference between ownership and control.

    I might own half the TV but what use is that if my partner controls the remote?

    The state owns RTE, I can agree with that.
    The state controls RTE, I want evidence for that.

    So far, there is none.


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    #480
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    alastair wrote: »
    Ah - my mistake. I didn't realise there was an elite forum of broadcast taste dictators operating on Boards.

    Nope, just regular joes looking to be informed and entertained.


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    #481
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    mikom wrote: »
    Since one of the weekend workers at the canning plant by the the name of Marion F earns over 250, 000 a year, and she is absent half the time.

    It must be quite the disappointment that you can't claim Pat the Plank is overpaid any more - given that he jumped to a higher salary in the commercial sector. Maybe Marion is value for money?


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