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A compulsory 'Broadcast tax' next on the list for homes in Ireland

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    #602
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    mikom wrote: »
    Who else performs in the hall, Mr spin?
    You know........... the one with the doors.

    NCO vs NCH.

    Other orchestras and choirs in the main - which still require the purchase of tickets. The RTE orchestras comprise the primary events calendar all the same.


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    #603
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Well, the NCO managed to get more than a quarter of a million ticket-buying punters through it's doors annually, so yes, I'd say rather smaller.
    Well having been involved in a national review (inadequate as well) of another artform I would almost garantee (I would need to see the breakdown) that of that 250,000 a high proportion would be repeat visits by the same people. So, lets not be taking a cold figure as any indication of how many individuals actually patronise the NCO.



    Not really. It's a proven formula.

    See above. Our musical and artistic infrastructure is one of the least developed in Europe, so it isn't 'proven' here. Again, full and frank review is necessary if we want to address that.

    Plenty? I think you exaggerate.[

    Prehaps I should have defined more...'the Arts media' but it has sometimes filtered into mainstream media as well.

    RTE retain extremely high listenership and viewers - they dominate the broadcasting audience by a mile. They're far from failure.

    If you believe that RTE dominate how people consume broadcasting and media or the arts then you aren't really relevant to the debate and I can see where you are getting the belief that a kneejerk reaction of a few cuts here and there will solve the problem/
    How people interact with the output of broadcasters has entirely changed and is continuing to change and we are not addressing it in any cohesive or planned way.
    TAM ratings are not really relevant to a review, you have to look at a much bigger picture.


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    #604
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Well having been involved in a national review (inadequate as well) of another artform I would almost garantee (I would need to see the breakdown) that of that 250,000 a high proportion would be repeat visits by the same people. So, lets not be taking a cold figure as any indication of how many individuals actually patronise the NCO.

    It's a very healthy number - even with repeat custom.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    See above. Our musical and artistic infrastructure is one of the least developed in Europe, so it isn't 'proven' here. Again, full and frank review is necessary if we want to address that.
    Sez you. I disagree.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Prehaps I should have defined more...'the Arts media' but it has sometimes filtered into mainstream media as well.
    Quite a different story then. You'll find any issue subject to debate, but there's no evidence of a widespread concern here.


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    If you believe that RTE dominate how people consume broadcasting and media or the arts then you aren't really relevant to the debate
    Sorry to hear that. Kinda convenient for your case though, eh?
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    How people interact with the output of broadcasters has entirely changed and is continuing to change and we are not addressing it in any cohesive or planned way.
    RTE fare well in online and app uasage too.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    TAM ratings are not really relevant to a review, you have to look at a much bigger picture.
    I'd have thought they were the best measure of the health of a broadcasters audience.


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    #605
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    alastair wrote: »
    Well, the NCO managed to get more than a quarter of a million ticket-buying punters through it's doors annually, so yes, I'd say rather smaller.

    mikom wrote: »
    Is a hall an orchestra?
    alastair wrote: »
    It's the home venue of the orchestras. It's where you go to see them perform, unless they're touring - so additional ticket sales there too.
    mikom wrote: »
    Who else performs in the hall, Mr spin?
    You know........... the one with the doors.

    NCO vs NCH.

    alastair wrote: »
    Other orchestras and choirs in the main - which still require the purchase of tickets. The RTE orchestras comprise the primary events calendar all the same.

    So the RTE orchestra (no doors) is not the same as the National concert hall (doors).
    Glad that's cleared up.
    Now the quarter of a million tickets sold............... were they by the RTE orchestra or the National concert hall?


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    #606
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    mikom wrote: »
    So the RTE orchestra (no doors) is not the same as the National concert hall (doors).
    Glad that's cleared up.
    Now the quarter of a million tickets sold............... were they by the RTE orchestra or the National concert hall?

    They were for performances by the various RTE orchestras - in their home venue. As already stated.


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    #607
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    It's a very healthy number - even with repeat custom.

    That maybe, but is it value for money and is the money coming from funds better invested elsewhere in light of hugely changed circustances since the 1940's?


    Sez you. I disagree.
    Which doesn't mean diddly squat tbh.


    Quite a different story then. You'll find any issue subject to debate, but there's no evidence of a widespread concern here.
    So, you being unaware (or burying your head in the sand) of issues pertaining to a lack of infrastructure and a lack of a vision and plan means everything is hunky dory?
    It's not hard to see how much trouble RTE are in if that is the thinking driving it.






    RTE fare well in online and app uasage too.


    I'd have thought they were the best measure of the health of a broadcasters audience.

    Seriously, you need to wake up and smell the roses.


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    #608
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    I must have missed the part where the licence fee was actually raised.

    Did you miss this bit in the report?
    The TV licence fee of €160 is "significantly" below the European average, the report notes.

    Green shoots. Green shoots.


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    #609
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Banjo String wrote: »
    Did you miss this bit in the report?



    Green shoots. Green shoots.

    Again - where has the licence been increased?


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    #610
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    They were for performances by the various RTE orchestras - in their home venue. As already stated.

    Performances that draw funding from the Arts Council also, it should be noted, as do tours and CD production.


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    #611
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    That maybe, but is it value for money and is the money coming from funds better invested elsewhere in light of hugely changed circustances since the 1940's? .

    I'd say yes. It compares well to the value garnered for similar investment in the UK.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Which doesn't mean diddly squat tbh.
    Right back at you. :rolleyes:

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    So, you being unaware (or burying your head in the sand) of issues pertaining to a lack of infrastructure and a lack of a vision and plan means everything is hunky dory?
    It's not hard to see how much trouble RTE are in if that is the thinking driving it.
    I'm aware of the debate. I'm simply pointing out that it's a relatively niche debate, that hasn't found much traction - so it's not as you presented it. And quite why you believe I've any influence in the 'thinking driving RTE' is something of a mystery. I'm just a punter who pays their licence.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Seriously, you need to wake up and smell the roses.
    That'll teach those TAM people!


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    #612
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    Again - where has the licence been increased?

    It's not yet. That's as good an indication that they will lobby our ever sympathetic govt to increase it as you could get though.


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    #613
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Performances that draw funding from the Arts Council also, it should be noted, as do tours and CD production.

    No they don't.

    http://www.artscouncil.ie/en/we_funded.aspx


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    #614
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Banjo String wrote: »
    It's not yet. That's as good an indication that they will lobby our ever sympathetic govt to increase it as you could get though.

    They've asked for an increase pretty much every year - it hasn't been increased in years. In fact their funding has been cut - where's the evidence of sympathy?


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    #615
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    alastair wrote: »
    They've asked for an increase pretty much every year - it hasn't been increased in years. In fact their funding has been cut - where's the evidence of sympathy?

    Where's my evidence of sympathy?

    Isn't Pat looking to introduce this charge on their behalf, which looks like the easier option than telling them to reform, cut their cloth, privatise them, or abolish them completely.

    You say they're the nation's favourite media/entertainment provider. Why not make them subscription based so?


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    #616
    ColmH81
    Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭ColmH81


    Can someone tell me, will it be a standard 'Broadcast Charge' or will there be various rates..

    I mean why should someone who can only get a 2Mb or lower link pay the same rate as someone who can get a 100Mb link?
    (yes, I'm focusing on the broadband element of it)


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    #617
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    No they don't.

    http://www.artscouncil.ie/en/we_funded.aspx

    Yes they do, one tour example here

    http://www.artscouncil.ie//en/we_funded.aspx?fid=ce28961b-ee76-4957-a3bf-8b9a49c00c49&yyyy=2012

    Events in the Concert Hall, see logos


    http://static.rasset.ie/documents/orchestras/rtenso-2013-14.pdf

    CD's
    http://www.artscouncil.ie/en/media.aspx?article=c6c57f0d-2bb0-45f0-97ac-f892fe916e07


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    #618
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Banjo String wrote: »
    Where's my evidence of sympathy?

    Isn't Pat looking to introduce this charge on their behalf, which looks like the easier option than telling them to reform, cut their cloth, privatise them, or abolish them completely.

    You say they're the nation's favourite media/entertainment provider. Why not make them subscription based so?

    What do you reckon the cost of rolling out subscription boxes across the country would be - a box for every telly? Cost savings there? How about radio - how do you propose a subscription model there?

    The broadcasting charge wasn't asked for by RTE - and won't impact on the amount of funding RTE receive, so why you think sympathy is involved there, I don't know.


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    #619
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Yes they do, one tour example here

    http://www.artscouncil.ie//en/we_funded.aspx?fid=ce28961b-ee76-4957-a3bf-8b9a49c00c49&yyyy=2012

    Events in the Concert Hall, see logos


    http://static.rasset.ie/documents/orchestras/rtenso-2013-14.pdf

    CD's
    http://www.artscouncil.ie/en/media.aspx?article=c6c57f0d-2bb0-45f0-97ac-f892fe916e07

    The Arts Council funded the composer John Kinsella for that CD - not the orchestra, and there's nothing in the other links to suggest that the orchestras received any funding - which makes sense, given that there is no record of funds allocated in their annual reports. Particular musicians performing with the orchestras in the NCH will have received Arts Council funding, but that's not the orchestras themselves.

    http://www.artscouncil.ie/Publications/Arts_Council_annual_report_2011_final.pdf


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    #620
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    ColmH81 wrote: »
    Can someone tell me, will it be a standard 'Broadcast Charge' or will there be various rates..

    I mean why should someone who can only get a 2Mb or lower link pay the same rate as someone who can get a 100Mb link?
    (yes, I'm focusing on the broadband element of it)

    It's not an internet tax. It's a broadcasting tax. You don't have to have any access to the internet at all. It's currently proposed as a single-rate household charge.


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    #621
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    The Arts Council funded the composer John Kinsella for that CD - not the orchestra, and there's nothing in the other links to suggest that the orchestras received any funding - which makes sense, given that there is no record of funds allocated in their annual reports. Particular musicians performing with the orchestras in the NCH will have received Arts Council funding, but that's not the orchestras themselves.

    http://www.artscouncil.ie/Publications/Arts_Council_annual_report_2011_final.pdf

    Yes, in order for the Orchestras to perform, produce CD's and to Tour, they indirectly draw additional funding from the Arts Council. It all adds up to the total taxpayer spend on these activities.


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    #622
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Yes, in order for the Orchestras to perform, produce CD's and to Tour, they indirectly draw additional funding from the Arts Council. It all adds up to the total taxpayer spend on these activities.

    Eh no. There are associated artistic activities that get funded by the Arts Council (amongst others) - that's not the same as additional funding for the orchestras. They wouldn't have been paid anything for working on the John Kinsella CD for instance. Wide Open Opera - same story.


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    #623
    ColmH81
    Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭ColmH81


    alastair wrote: »
    It's not an internet tax. It's a broadcasting tax. You don't have to have any access to the internet at all. It's currently proposed as a single-rate household charge.

    so basically they're just renaming the TV License????


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    #624
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Eh no. There are associated artistic activities that get funded by the Arts Council (amongst others) - that's not the same as additional funding for the orchestras. They wouldn't have been paid anything for working on the John Kinsella CD for instance. Wide Open Opera - same story.

    Does the activity of the NSO cost more than what RTE puts in...yes it does.

    I'm not sure how you do your sums when you are reviewing how much something costs, but I tend to add all the figures.


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    #625
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    ColmH81 wrote: »
    so basically they're just renaming the TV License????

    No - they're removing the need to have a telly in the first place - they assume you benefit from public broadcasting services regardless of what kit you have in the household.


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    #626
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Does the activity of the NSO cost more than what RTE puts in...yes it does.

    I'm not sure how you do your sums when you are reviewing how much something costs, but I tend to add all the figures.

    They sell tickets for performances - 15 million euro's worth of income over the years 2006 -2011. Add that to your subvention costs.


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    #627
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    ColmH81 wrote: »
    so basically they're just renaming the TV License????

    Yes they are, in an attempt to maintain the status quo in the face of a vastly changed and quickly changing broadcasting landscape.


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    #628
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    an attempt to maintain the status quo in the face of a vastly changed and quickly changing broadcasting landscape.

    And nothing wrong with that.


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    #629
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    And nothing wrong with that.

    Yes there is, despite your attempts to depict RTE as some great protector of a 'national broadcasting' ethos or indeed as a protective umbrella for our national orchestras and choirs, they are being forced to blindly slash and cut without any proper review of what exactly it is they do and are expected to do.
    This is happening because their politically expedient masters are only interested in optics, aided and abetted by those in RTE who are only interested in maintaining their cozy positions and salaries.


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    #630
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    they are being forced to blindly slash and cut without any proper review of what exactly it is they do and are expected to do.

    Because there's clarity as to what they're supposed to do. This is your personal hobby-horse, and one that no-one else is whinging about a need for another review.


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    #631
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Because there's clarity as to what they're supposed to do. This is your personal hobby-horse,

    There is clarity about the need to save money, but none in terms of what a 'national broadcaster' should be doing. What is happening is the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater, the usual response here.


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