Why can nobody speak Irish?

Ace Attorney

I got by with a small bit of irish and by just copying large chunks of text from the story with the same common word what was asked in the question and never really understanding what was being asked, i wish i did learn it tho would be class to have learned it proplerly

Rented Mule

Des Bishop was able to learn a functional use of the Irish language in ten months in his 30s. That tells me that it is not being taught very well in the school system.

Dostoevsky

Rented Mule wrote: »

Des Bishop was able to learn a functional use of the Irish language in ten months in his 30s. That tells me that it is not being taught very well in the school system.

This is part of it, but in defence of teachers of Irish the opportunities for true immersion in the language during school time are not there. The goodwill is there from most kids at least in first year, but by 5th year it often has declined largely because the chance for immersion has not been present. They are not challenged enough.

For me the difference is Des Bishop had motivation. Adults who go back and are motivated to become fluent in Irish (or any other language) will become fluent in it.

kraggy

Anyone who got an honour in Gaeilge in the Leaving Cert is actually well able to speak it.

It's sadly just a negative societal view that stops people from continuing to use it after school.

I think they should increase the percentage of oral marks further. When I did the Leaving, it was 25%, now it's 40 I believe. Put it up to 70%. Languages are mostly spoken rather than read.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

My point was about relevance. You're talking about the way it is taught and presented to the child, which has nothing to do with my point. I don't believe that relevance is a factor in this until people get much older.

Many in this thread said they had always found it irrelevant and useless which put them off learning it. Those kinds of thoughts only creep in maybe 5 or 6 years, at the least, after they initially started learning the language, as there is no way that kids are worried about practicalities like using stuff in the real world.

I know what your point is, see below.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

they ask two questions: is this fun? and is this something useful?

If that were the case, kids would never bother to learn Maths and every other European language would fall flat on its face from the start. Relevance and real world application would have nothing to do with it until secondary school and at that point, they've been learning the language for years and should be far more proficient. They have a free run at kids willing to learn from 4-12 (8 years!) and the kids are going to secondary school struggling with the rudiments.

Because even 4 year olds can see a need for learning how to count. They can see a need for English in learning new words and how to ask for things.

There is also a reason for not teaching foreign languages to kids at the age of 4: it's not necssecary to them. And when I say foreign langauges, I include Irish in this, because to a 4 year old, a foreign language is a languge you don't speak, irrespective of it's origin.

allibastor

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

Is it the way Irish is taught? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I'm curious to know why so many people seem to have difficulty with it, given that it's taught at such a young age.

I can speak it quiet well actually. Its just it has no major advantage to be able to speak it anywhere else outside of Ireland. English speakign is becoming more of the common language in the world.

OldNotWIse

I guess its the way its taught. I studied French and Spanish for 5 years (by choice)and scored very highly in both at honours level. Irish? Meh, passed...after 14 years having it rammed down my throat.

godwin

It's useless , no need for it anymore.

josip

We must first try to track down nobody and then ask them why is it that they can speak Irish when most of the rest of us struggle.

Dostoevsky

kraggy wrote: »

Anyone who got an honour in Gaeilge in the Leaving Cert is actually well able to speak it.

I agree. I'd go further and say even people who failed Irish could speak it well if they were motivated enough to put the work in. Motivation is most of the battle.

kraggy wrote: »

It's sadly just a negative societal view that stops people from continuing to use it after school.

This may be so. However, I found that when I wanted to go back and improve my Irish there was/is a really, really supportive community here in Dublin. I could mention names but there were so many people who were patient with me, and kind to me, I was just inspired to improve and make that community part of my life. For me, it's truly liberating to come out from having a good conversation with people in Irish now. I can see the same happiness and pride in my own younger relatives when we have a chat in Irish and I gently correct them as we go along.

Stojkovic

I wanted to shag my French teacher.
I never wanted to shag any Irish teachers I had.

PhlegmyMoses

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I know what your point is, see below.





Because even 4 year olds can see a need for learning how to count. They can see a need for English in learning new words and how to ask for things.

There is also a reason for not teaching foreign languages to kids at the age of 4: it's not necssecary to them. And when I say foreign langauges, I include Irish in this, because to a 4 year old, a foreign language is a languge you don't speak, irrespective of it's origin.

I just don't agree with this at all. Kids will learn anything if it is presented to them in a fun and engaging way. The relevance is that their teacher is asking them to learn it. Some of the best results, overall in all subjects, in the country are coming out of Gaelscoils from kids who have learned the language from 4 years old onward with no issue. You are giving too much credit to the mentality of kids at that age. The right material, with the right teacher and a good learning atmosphere in a school will allow a child to engage with and enjoy anything that's put in front of them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I just don't agree with this at all. Kids will learn anything if it is presented to them in a fun and engaging way. The relevance is that their teacher is asking them to learn it. Some of the best results, overall in all subjects, in the country are coming out of Gaelscoils from kids who have learned the language from 4 years old onward with no issue. You are giving too much credit to the mentality of kids at that age. The right material, with the right teacher and a good learning atmosphere in a school will allow a child to engage with and enjoy anything that's put in front of them.

It's not credit or otherwise, it's how they think. Your average 4 year old is very practical. Why do you think they ask "why?" so often?

And to them, fun is a very practical concern. It it's not fun, it's pointless and when most of the posters your disagreeing with started irish, it most certainly was not fun.

PhlegmyMoses

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And to them, fun is a very practical concern. It it's not fun, it's pointless and when most of the posters your disagreeing with started irish, it most certainly was not fun.

All that tells us is that it has traditionally been taught poorly, not that children are some kind of discerning connoisseurs when it comes to what they learn. If you follow your argument to its logical conclusion, it boils down to this statement: "Languages aren't fun or practical, so kids don't want to learn them." Which is ridiculous, tbh. The statement should be: "Kids will learn anything if it is presented to them in the correct way."

CruelCoin

CruelCoin wrote: »

Thirdly, as a nation, we suck at all languages..

I don't think that's true at all
There are people who don't see the relevance and decide "I can't" without even bothering to try a language
Some asked me for help with French when we were in LC, but they just sat there with no interest in even trying so I had to stop - it can't be magicked into your head
That said it's a lot more interesting doing adult classes with different ways of teaching e.g. games than learning off verb tables

kiffer wrote: »

Kids like learning irish at first... it starts off with some basic vocabulary and they enjoy that learning new names for objects and actions... but very soon two things hit and a double whammy effect totally knocks out any interest in learning it... one is social stigma, (it's a dead language, it's for boggers, it's too hard, getting out of doing irish is a win) the other is the fact it's so badly taught.

I know a lot of people that got to 5th year before they found out that nouns have genders in irish... yes they knew that some words took an "i" and somr did not but everyone just thought that was some random rule like alk the others.
Then in 5th year you get it wrong for the millionth time and an exasperated teacher says "agh blah is feminine it takes an 'i' how are you guys not getting this?" and class sits there going "there are masculine and feminie nouns in irish" ... I've heard the exact same story from people in pass and honours classes.
I remember asking when I was in primary how you knew which ones take an "i" and which don't and being told that you jusr have to memorize it by rote there is not logic to it. I think at the start they think English speaking kids can't handle the idea of words having genders and then when they obviously can while learning other languages the secondary level teachers assume a lot of stuff is common knowledge.

Forcing small kids to memorize those bloody conjugated prepositions takes all the fun out of it.

^ Yes to this. It's taught very poorly. I liked it in primary school thanks to the influence of a teacher who had a passion for it (a good way of passing on interest in any subject), but then in secondary sure they were either incompetent or didn't care. I liked it and I was alright at it, and they tried a bit to keep it up to date with newspaper articles and stuff.
The whole gender thing - I'm pretty sure nobody ever really told us that!
Bit more proper grammar teaching instead of reciting tables of personal preps please!
I don't think it should be compulsory either. Might give them a bit more encouragement to reform it instead of foisting rubbish syllabi on us and then wondering where it all went wrong

kowloon

Eogclouder wrote: »

3. The Dept of education hate Irish, it wouldn't be a thing if they had enough power to do so, they work against the language.

I'm not so sure about that one, wasn't there an article discussed in AH in one of the other Irish threads (there are many) that stated Irish was the most highly funded subject?

wolfpawnat wrote: »

What is wrong with a small bit of individualism in the form of a national language as well as one of the major world languages in so many people's eyes?

I think a lot of people would regard the coercion aspect of Irish as something at odds with individualism. Something mentioned Hiberno-English earlier, I'd argue that is more a part of our culture than Irish itself at this stage.

Citycap

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

No they can't.
Go to anywhere east of Poland and let me know how you get on speaking English. :rolleyes:

Kids in Poland can speak very good Polish by the time they are seven

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

All that tells us is that it has traditionally been taught poorly, not that children are some kind of discerning connoisseurs when it comes to what they learn. If you follow your argument to its logical conclusion, it boils down to this statement: "Languages aren't fun or practical, so kids don't want to learn them." Which is ridiculous, tbh. The statement should be: "Kids will learn anything if it is presented to them in the correct way."

Very true. But ask yourself: was it taught in the correct way when the people who disliked ti from the start started learning it?

"The correct way" is a mixtrue of fun and practicality. You can still get away without the fun part of it's practical. Kids do a lot of things they don't like doing because they still understand the practical element of it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

Is it the way Irish is taught? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I'm curious to know why so many people seem to have difficulty with it, given that it's taught at such a young age.

In fairness, most European kids don;t start learning English until the aget of about 10 or so. But again - it's a practical thing to learn for them.

[-0-]

It's forced on people and not used enough in every day life. Plain and simple. It should be used more.

I used to be fluent in it, but I've lost most of it now.

I'm going to learn it again, however. It's a beautiful language. Now that I'm living in the states, I'd love for my kids to be able to speak some of it as well.

CruelCoin

IrishExpat wrote: »

A sound I'll gladly never hear again!

'Léigh anois go cúramach ar do scrúdpháipéar na treoracha agus na ceisteanna ...'

(not good at this so bear with me)

...agawn a cuid B........BEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPP

Dia duit a maire, conas a ta tu?
O REA O REA!

Burned into my ****ing ears.

I am pie

It is a hindrance, if that time was devoted to maths or other core sciences we really might have the knowledge economy that people used to chirp on about. We have very high levels of investment from the US, mostly in high tech or bio. We could be a technology leader in Europe if we could educate appropriately. Let Irish by an opt in subject for people who care about it, fund any voluntary groups properly for people who do want to preserve it by stop wasting valuable classroom hours on people who will forget it quickly and will never really use it in anger.

Cienciano

fishy fishy wrote: »

Its only a "dead language" to those who can't speak it.

Irish is still very much alive and is the main language used on many Islands and around the West of Ireland - it is certainly not a dead language. In fact it is growing in popularity, with people from other countries attending Irish language classes which are usually booked out.

Irish leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths after the way it was taught in school - however, that shouldn't be a reason to hate the language, instead of just hating how it was taught.

Irish, when you understand it is a very lovely language.

Take away the tax breaks in Gaeltach areas and it's a dead language. It's not quite dead left, thanks to the tax payers life support system

OldNotWIse

The only thing I remember is leigh anois go curamach ar do scrudphaipeir, na treoracha agus na ceisteann a ghaman na cuid aaaaah.

Quin_Dub

Having gone to an All-Irish primary school (30+ years ago!!) my Irish is fine..

However , watching my children being taught Irish now, I can see the fundamental flaws in the way the language is taught...

Basically , we try to teach Irish the way we teach English (or the way the French kids learn French etc.) -Basic grammar , limited practical examples and then move quickly into Literature - Very short Stories etc. in Primary and then rapidly into Poetry, Drama & Prose in 2nd level.

The problem is , unlike English , virtually no one is speaking Irish outside the class-room so the teaching method simply doesn't work.

We need to completely scrap the current curriculum and replace it with one the closely mirrors the way we teach French/German etc. - Lots of practical examples , lots of listening comprehensions and so on...

That's the only way to actually get people knowing how to speak Irish when they leave school.

shruikan2553

They seem to act as if you can already speak the language. I spent more time learning off an essay about the theme of love in a poem than learning to use the language.

When I was in the netherlands I actually began picking up the language quite quickly. Couldnt hold a conversation but I knew some basic words after 3 days. Suppose it was actually used there so it was of use for me to learn a little.

dd972

The Welsh have kept their language alive better than we have and they're still within the UK, must be a myriad of reasons why.

Stepping Stone

kraggy wrote: »

Anyone who got an honour in Gaeilge in the Leaving Cert is actually well able to speak it.

On this, I got an honour in Irish. I literally could not form a sentence in Irish. The basics had never been taught to us, so by the time I hit secondary school I really struggled.

Luckily, I have a really good memory and was able to learn off whatever I needed. I scraped a C in the junior cert using this method. I failed the aural without a doubt. I hadn't a hope in hell.

Roll on the leaving, I learned off political esssys, answers to poetry questions and evetything else I needed.

I learned off the stuff for the oral. Memorized as much as I could. Got a surprisingly good mark, better than the people who could speak Irish.

Why? We reward rote learning. I knew some nouns, knew but could not apply some verbs but I could regurgitate massive amounts of rubbish about the economy, politics, poems, etc.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Having gone to an All-Irish primary school (30+ years ago!!) my Irish is fine..

However , watching my children being taught Irish now, I can see the fundamental flaws in the way the language is taught...

Basically , we try to teach Irish the way we teach English (or the way the French kids learn French etc.) -Basic grammar , limited practical examples and then move quickly into Literature - Very short Stories etc. in Primary and then rapidly into Poetry, Drama & Prose in 2nd level.

The problem is , unlike English , virtually no one is speaking Irish outside the class-room so the teaching method simply doesn't work.

We need to completely scrap the current curriculum and replace it with one the closely mirrors the way we teach French/German etc. - Lots of practical examples , lots of listening comprehensions and so on...

That's the only way to actually get people knowing how to speak Irish when they leave school.

Have to disagree with you here - you need more than basic grammar and limited practical examples before you move into stories and poetry. I don't think following the French or German examples is a good idea either: how many fluent French and German speakers does the system produce?

The other outside-the-box thinking is to break the connection between Irish and school. Round up a few sports coaches, art/dance teachers, scout leaders and so on - people who the kids see in extra-curricular activites - who have a bit of Irish and get them to teach it while teachign art or boxing or whatever. Not do the whole lesson/training session in Irish, but a few phrases here and there so that kids see Irish as something that exists outside of a classroom.

Simultansouly, drop it as a compulsory subject. That serves no one. And to the majorit of kids - and there is NO getting around this - Irish is not a language, it's a school subject.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Have to disagree with you here - you need more than basic grammar and limited practical examples before you move into stories and poetry.
.

That's why the poster is calling this a flaw...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

bluewolf wrote: »

That's why the poster is calling this a flaw...

Ah.... misread the post.... does make more sense now...:o

fishy fishy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I know what your point is, see below.





Because even 4 year olds can see a need for learning how to count. They can see a need for English in learning new words and how to ask for things.

There is also a reason for not teaching foreign languages to kids at the age of 4: it's not necssecary to them. And when I say foreign langauges, I include Irish in this, because to a 4 year old, a foreign language is a languge you don't speak, irrespective of it's origin.

thats quite a funny way of looking at things.

So would you say that a child, who has a mother who cannot speak Irish and a father who is fluent in Irish should not be taught to converse in Irish from a young age because "its just not necessary"

purplepanda

dd972 wrote: »

The Welsh have kept their language alive better than we have and they're still within the UK, must be a myriad of reasons why.

Essentially it seems that the non conformist churches in Wales kept the language prominent in cultural & everyday use in schools & chapels, despite English being used for official & business purposes. I seem to recall reading that the Bible was actually translated into Welsh before English?

In stark contrast to the RC Church who couldn't wait for the majority still speaking Irish or being bilingual to abandon the language by actively encouraging it's demise. O'Connell's contempt for the Irish language is well documented.

We have many Ireland's great Protestant patriots to thank for saving the remnants of what's left of traditional & historical Irish culture. By the forming of the Gaelic League & other cultural organisations.

Certainly not the Church who are also guilty of cultural oppression of the Irish nation over the centuries yet many are prepared to ignore their deeds, even to this day!!!

fishy fishy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It's not credit or otherwise, it's how they think. Your average 4 year old is very practical. Why do you think they ask "why?" so often?

And to them, fun is a very practical concern. It it's not fun, it's pointless and when most of the posters your disagreeing with started irish, it most certainly was not fun.

crazy way of looking at things. Kids of four cannot decide what is practical or what is not.

fishy fishy

Cienciano wrote: »

Take away the tax breaks in Gaeltach areas and it's a dead language. It's not quite dead left, thanks to the tax payers life support system

there is a few things not dependent on "tax" - speaking your native language is one of them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

fishy fishy wrote: »

thats quite a funny way of looking at things.

So would you say that a child, who has a mother who cannot speak Irish and a father who is fluent in Irish should not be taught to converse in Irish from a young age because "its just not necessary"

You misunderstand. I'm not going to tell a 4 year old what is and is not practical, the 4 year old will decide for themselves. And whether or not said child "should" be taught irish is irrelevant - it's whether ot not the child will actually want to learn it.

fishy fishy wrote: »

crazy way of looking at things. Kids of four cannot decide what is practical or what is not.

Of course they can. They know it's practical to eat so you don't get hungry. They know it's practical to wea clothes so you don't get cold. The know it's practical to go to the toilet or...

godwin

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

In fairness, most European kids don;t start learning English until the aget of about 10 or so. But again - it's a practical thing to learn for them.

In fairness , kids like this grow up with English via popular music and and tv/film , walk around any shopping district in any major non-English speaking city and all you hear is music in English , turn on TV and there you have MTV or similar playing music of which 90% is in English , the same cannot be said for the Irish language.

fishy fishy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You misunderstand. I'm not going to tell a 4 year old what is and is not practical, the 4 year old will decide for themselves. And whether or not said child "should" be taught irish is irrelevant - it's whether ot not the child will actually want to learn it.



Of course they can. They know it's practical to eat so you don't get hungry. They know it's practical to wea clothes so you don't get cold. The know it's practical to go to the toilet or...

so four year olds are better off "deciding" what the WANT to do rather than the parents knowing whats best for them.

No wonder the worlds gone mad.

A four year old doesn't even know what the word practical means. But you didn't answer the question about one parent being fluent irish - is it not practical for the child to learn it?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

fishy fishy wrote: »

so four year olds are better off "deciding" what the WANT to do rather than the parents knowing whats best for them.

No wonder the worlds gone mad.

Not what I said.

fishy fishy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not what I said.

I'm not going to tell a 4 year old what is and is not practical, the 4 year old will decide for themselves

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

fishy fishy wrote: »

I'm not going to tell a 4 year old what is and is not practical, the 4 year old will decide for themselves

They will deide what they want for themselves, that is correct. But you said that the should be given it, not me.

Nemeses

Look, if you want to speak Irish...

Christ the Redeemer

I sucked as a student and the education system probably sucked as hard.

Wibbs

fishy fishy wrote: »

speaking your native language is one of them.

That's your problem right there, it's not the native language of the majority of Irish people and hasn't been for over a century.

fishy fishy

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

They will deide what they want for themselves, that is correct. But you said that the should be given it, not me.

no - re-read my post.

Why should a four year old be given what they want? Parents know best. Four year olds need to be taught instead of "deciding" what they want and don't want. They are small children.

Do you agree tho, that if the father is a fluent Irish speaker and the mother is a fluent English speaker then the child should know both languages, or is it a case of the child not bothering learning Irish as it isn't "necessary". Sorry but a four year old child can't make those decisions.

Wibbs

fishy fishy wrote: »

Do you agree tho, that if the father is a fluent Irish speaker and the mother is a fluent English speaker then the child should know both languages, or is it a case of the child not bothering learning Irish as it isn't "necessary". Sorry but a four year old child can't make those decisions.

In such a case the kid will use both languages as it is plainly useful to do so, even to a small child, just like it would be the case if the dad was French or Russian.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

fishy fishy wrote: »

no - re-read my post.

Why should a four year old be given what they want?

I have no idea - why are you asking?

Do you agree tho, that if the father is a fluent Irish speaker and the mother is a fluent English speaker then the child should know both languages, or is it a case of the child not bothering learning Irish as it isn't "necessary". Sorry but a four year old child can't make those decisions.

I'm not talking about the decision. You are assuming I'm talking the decision.

I'm talking about the will. The desire. The opinion - and the 4 year old will form an opinion - and that will go a long way to deciding whether or not the kid will take to the langauge or not.

They will decide whether or not they like something - that, I argued. A parent can not decide that for a four year old any more than a parent can decide that their child likes or does not like spinach. They can still feed the kid spinach, though.

An Coilean

BeerWolf wrote: »

Been living in Ireland since '96 - don't know a single word of Irish... :pac:

You sure about that?

Wattle

For most people the language ceases being relevant once they finish their Leaving Cert. After that they encounter it seldom if at all.

shruikan2553

Heres another way to look at it, why should we speak it? Why make it compulsary for every student from when they start education until they finish? At least you should be able to drop the subject after junior cert. There are many people like me who have never had any interest in learning the language and never will.