Fixed Penalty Notices for Cycling by end of year

Qualitymark

Not in the least whataboutery, but simple psychology. If people are fined €50 for a relatively small offence (a lot for many cyclists, though perhaps not for the bloated plutocrats of Boards while there is no action taken if their bike's stolen, the result will be contempt for the Gardaí.

Edit: I was about to put yet another rude person on the ignore list for the rude 'you want to continue breaking one law because another isn't getting enough intention for your liking', but was surprised to see that it was Dermot Illogical, so haven't.

Beasty

Qualitymark wrote: »

Not in the least whataboutery, but simple psychology. If people are fined €50 for a relatively small offence (a lot for many cyclists, though perhaps not for the bloated plutocrats of Boards while there is no action taken if their bike's stolen, the result will be contempt for the Gardaí.

Will you please stop trying to find every opportunity to slag off the Gardai

Qualitymark

Beasty wrote: »

Will you please stop trying to find every opportunity to slag off the Gardai

Another ignore list candidate...

Beasty

Qualitymark wrote: »

Another ignore list candidate...

Ignoring a mod or a mod's instructions is not a wise move

Dermot Illogical

Qualitymark wrote: »

Edit: I was about to put yet another rude person on the ignore list for the rude 'you want to continue breaking one law because another isn't getting enough intention for your liking', but was surprised to see that it was Dermot Illogical, so haven't.

It's a surprise to me that anyone here would be surprised by my rudeness tbh.

ashleey

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

It's a surprise to me that anyone here would be surprised by my rudeness tbh.

That's just whataboutery.

What is 'whataboutery'?

Squidgy Black

Why is it that whenever threads like this come around, all the village idiots come out of their hiding holes with their nonsensical, irrelevant arguments?

Darkglasses

stetyrrell wrote: »

Why is it that whenever threads like this come around, all the village idiots come out of their hiding holes with their nonsensical, irrelevant arguments?

And why can't I stop reading these threads even though I hate them

Qualitymark

I'm surprised to find that yizzer right; cyclists tend to be better off:

(Scottish study) http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/files/documents/roads/SAWCAR.pdf
(London study)
http://researchonline.lshtm.ac.uk/1179/1/Cycling_and_the_city_published_author_copy.pdf

Surprised because most of the cyclists I know are people who live quite frugally and are not well off. But then I don't know sports cyclists.

And of course it's possible that the poor don't cycle so much because if their bikes are stolen they can't afford to replace them, and are unlikely to get them back.

Darkglasses

Qualitymark wrote: »

And of course it's possible that the poor don't cycle so much because if their bikes are stolen they can't afford to replace them, and are unlikely to get them back.

Because of course, buying and running a car is cheaper than having to occasionally replace a cheap bike.

Qualitymark

Darkglasses wrote: »

Because of course, buying and running a car is cheaper than having to occasionally replace a cheap bike.

Car or bike is the only choice?

Raam

Qualitymark wrote: »

Car or bike is the only choice?

Yes. You're either with us or against us.

Squidgy Black

Qualitymark wrote: »

And of course it's possible that the poor don't cycle so much because if their bikes are stolen they can't afford to replace them, and are unlikely to get them back.

You really have spouted some utter tripe on this thread without using any common sense.

Tax and insurance on a car per year adds up to nearly 700 euro. A second hand car will cost you the guts of 1500 euro. Fuel alone is at least 20 euro a week, or 1140 euro a year. Excl maintanence the cost of running a car per year is nearly 2000 euro and then you have to buy a car.

A decent bike and lock will set you back 450 euro, and will need little maintenance. I personally have cycled into the city centre for the last 3 years on a 500 euro bike and never had it stolen with 2 kryptonite u locks.

Essentially, stop talking absolute rubbish.

Darkglasses

Qualitymark wrote: »

Car or bike is the only choice?

It is where I live! I assumed that's what you were getting at, apologies if I was wrong.

Replacing a cheap bike is also cheaper than most public transport that I know of.

Qualitymark

Ah, where I live you see buses trundling along, and a lot of people travelling on them; you also see people walking. As you walk from the relatively well-off areas to the east of me to the very poor areas to the west, the number of houses that have cars parked outside decreases.

monument

ashleey wrote: »

That's just whataboutery.

What is 'whataboutery'?

http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/whataboutery

No Pants

Beasty wrote: »

I'm currently in Florida where they seem to take road law enforcement very seriously. I couldn't work out why the coaches kept coming to a complete halt at deserted junctions with no traffic lights until I realised they were observing the stop signs (presumably under the threat of a hefty fine and possible loss of job).

I was stopped in California once for jaywalking. Deserted road at midnight. Cop car tucked away with lights off. Got the blues & twos, hand on the gun butt, etc. Let off when he realised I wasn't worth the paperwork.

Beasty

No Pants wrote: »

I was stopped in California once for jaywalking. Deserted road at midnight. Cop car tucked away with lights off. Got the blues & twos, hand on the gun butt, etc. Let off when he realised I wasn't worth the paperwork.

Did you not have some explaining to do when you told him your Boards username?:pac:

No Pants

Beasty wrote: »

Did you not have some explaining to do when you told him your Boards username?:pac:

Strategically placed shopping bags worked wonders.

Jawgap

I_NOT_A_TROLL. YOU_ARE_TROLL YE_U_ARE. wrote: »

good

Agreed

Beasty

Jawgap wrote: »

Agreed

He's gone ....


.... but I'm sure will return, don't know where, don't know when, but I know we'll meet him again some sunny day ...

Jawgap

Beasty wrote: »

He's gone ....


.... but I'm sure will return, don't know where, don't know when, but I know we'll meet him again some sunny day ...

Probably next weekend when he's let out again.

Care in the community is great;)

CramCycle

No Pants wrote: »

I was stopped in California once for jaywalking. Deserted road at midnight. Cop car tucked away with lights off. Got the blues & twos, hand on the gun butt, etc. Let off when he realised I wasn't worth the paperwork.

Had the same years ago, walked across a road where there was no traffic in either direction bar one car at a red, so far away I could only make out it was white. Crossing the car park on the far side, I got the blues and twos. Let me off with a warning when I apologised (I hadn't a clue what he was on about for the first minute). Warned me not to do it again.

Chips Lovell

beauf wrote: »

This is blind rule following without thinking if it makes sense or not. This is like the law about having to stay in a cycle lane if it exists, even where it was hazardous to do so.

It isn't though. I just explained that you don't need to break the law in order to remain safe, i.e. there are legal ways of avoiding danger.

steamengine wrote: »

I'm equally amazed at how no-one here appears to be bothered about parked cars in cycle lanes, hence prompting some cyclists to play safe and use an adjacent footpath.

Signal and overtake them, like any other obstacle.

Qualitymark

Interesting article by Dr Atul Gawande in the New Yorker about how to get people to do things that are good practice:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/07/29/130729fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=all

(He's talking about medical things, but the logic carries through.)

To create new norms, you have to understand people’s existing norms and barriers to change. You have to understand what’s getting in their way.

He points out that punishment - fines, etc - is so disincentivising that people simply quit.

I'm not against the fines; I just think €50 is so high a fine that it won't work.

I'm told that in Germany a lot of rules are enforced by tiny, niggling fines, €2 and the like, which are annoying enough to make people change their behaviour, but not enough to make people angry and defiant.

CramCycle

Qualitymark wrote: »

I'm not against the fines; I just think €50 is so high a fine that it won't work.

I'm told that in Germany a lot of rules are enforced by tiny, niggling fines, €2 and the like, which are annoying enough to make people change their behaviour, but not enough to make people angry and defiant.

I can't see 2euro having any effect. Alot of people wouldn't care that much, they won't catch people every time they break the lights so 2euro a week is a small fee, 50euro a week is a fine that makes you think twice.
50euro is high but that's why its a good number, it is not so high that it is impossible to pay if you make an error but it is high enough that most people can not afford to continuously break the rules for fear of the 50euro fine.
In short (and to rob someone elses post), 50euro is not high if you never have to pay it :pac:

Spook_ie

Spook_ie wrote: »

I did

Apologies to all, major melt down in the heat, of course the time for the cylist would still be 10 secs at 10 m/s, the 20 secs would be the time to open up a further 100 m gap.

I might revisit it later when my brain isn't overheated

Chips Lovell

How won't it work? People refusing to pay €50?

magicbastarder

Qualitymark wrote: »

I'm told that in Germany a lot of rules are enforced by tiny, niggling fines, €2 and the like, which are annoying enough to make people change their behaviour, but not enough to make people angry and defiant.

a colleague got done for jaywalking in dusseldorf; he had to pay a €5 fine; when he pointed out that he did not have any cash, the traffic cop took out a credit card terminal.
a german got done at the same time - no cash or credit card, and my colleague offered to pay their fine. that didn't go down well with the cop.

a well enforced penalty system of €5 fines would be far more effective and more equitable than the badly policed system being proposed.

Beasty

magicbastarder wrote: »

a well enforced penalty system of €5 fines would be far more effective and more equitable than the badly policed system being proposed.

How can you possibly suggest it's badly policed when it's not even in force yet?

No Pants

Beasty wrote: »

How can you possibly suggest it's badly policed when it's not even in force yet?

I see no reason to suspect that it might be. Remember all the fuss a couple of years ago about the rule change for unaccompanied learner drivers? There was a very similar, polarised argument at the time. People with full licences said that they should be off the road as they weren't qualified and it was unsafe to share a road with them. The learners argued that they had to get to work, they had been driving for years in some cases, hadn't had accidents, statistically weren't responsible for accidents, etc. A crackdown and huge penalties were promised.

Fast forward to 2013 and there's been very little change. People still drive unaccompanied. Some took down their L plates, some didn't bother. I've driven through two checkpoints since 2006.

The enforcement for this, if there is any, will be concentrated in the first couple of weeks. Then it'll tail off.

I still think it's a good idea though and I don't buy any of the arguments against it.

robertxxx

Ah so just watched a program on the BBC called "the route master",its about London and all of its transport, public and private.

So this is where we are getting our fixed penalty notices from, cyclist in London are fined £30 for running red lights, can our fabulous leaders please stop copying everything that the uk does.

In London there is 550k cycling journeys per day! What's it in Dublin 2k??


Enda and Leo please stop copying London or better still F off and move there!

ThisRegard

It seems most of your posts of late belong in the Politics forum.

Dublin Bikes alone have had days with more than 7,000 journeys.

CramCycle

robertxxx wrote: »

In London there is 550k cycling journeys per day! What's it in Dublin 2k??

Considering the average DB rental numbers per day would be higher (highest so far is over 7k), I don't think 2k is a fair number.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

ThisRegard wrote: »

Dublin Bikes alone have had days with more than 7,000 journeys.

I think here is the bigger problem with cycling in dublin,

the fact anyone can just jump on a dublin city bike and piss off where they want and most of the time not adhering to the rules and not wearing a helmet.

These are the main cyclists using path aswell as roads where they see convenient and going through lights etc.

ThisRegard

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I think here is the bigger problem with cycling in dublin,

the fact anyone can just jump on a dublin city bike and piss off where they want and most of the time not adhering to the rules and not wearing a helmet.

These are the main cyclists using path aswell as roads where they see convenient and going through lights etc.

Mmm, let me see.. nope, you missed high vis vests. Damn, you almost had a bingo.

CramCycle

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

the fact anyone can just jump on a dublin city bike and piss off where they want and most of the time not adhering to the rules and not wearing a helmet.

MOD VOICE: This thread has nothing to do with helmets, it is not a legal requirement and there is already a megathread on the subject. If anyone else brings it up, they can take some time out from the forum. The various routes this discussion could take has been done ad nauseam and will not be repeated in here. Please PM for further clarifications or discussion on the issue.

Dermot Illogical

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I think here is the bigger problem with cycling in dublin,

the fact anyone can just jump on a dublin city bike and piss off where they want and most of the time not adhering to the rules and not wearing a helmet.

These are the main cyclists using path aswell as roads where they see convenient and going through lights etc.

Also, one of the greatest things about cycling is that you can piss off wherever you want. What's your problem with that? Are you lacking the same freedom and suffering pangs of jealousy?

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Also, one of the greatest things about cycling is that you can piss off wherever you want. What's your problem with that? Are you lacking the same freedom and suffering pangs of jealousy?

the freedom is great about that but theres nothing on the DB stands about the bikes regarding correct usages on the roads for cycling and drivers etc. just how to take the bike and go.

its just because this DB Scheme opened up a lot of people to cycling in dublin city who may have never done it before so could possibly lead to accidents.

other than that its a good scheme all the same.

Dermot Illogical

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

the freedom is great about that but theres nothing on the DB stands about the bikes regarding correct usages on the roads for cycling and drivers etc. just how to take the bike and go.

its just because this DB Scheme opened up a lot of people to cycling in dublin city who may have never done it before so could possibly lead to accidents.

other than that its a good scheme all the same.

The age profile of the DB users I see around town is not all that youthful. I'd be surprised if the majority aren't motorists. The rules of the road shouldn't be alien to them. They are, but they shouldn't be.
The accident rate seems quite low for all that. Any I've seen have been self-inflicted.

Squidgy Black

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

The age profile of the DB users I see around town is not all that youthful. I'd be surprised if the majority aren't motorists. The rules of the road shouldn't be alien to them. They are, but they shouldn't be.
The accident rate seems quite low for all that. Any I've seen have been self-inflicted.

The majority of DB users I see around town are suits, apart from the odd tourist. Anyone above the age of 16 should know the rules of the road, regardless of whether they've even sat their theory test. It's mostly common sense and general knowledge.

Mongfinder General

Why on earth would a cyclist want to play by the rules of the road? I doubt posterity or gumption come to mind when you're trying to get from A to B in morning traffic. Very little chance of being pursued or apprehended by the cops too. Cops aren't bothered enforcing the law unless you really p1ss them off.

Squidgy Black

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Why on earth would a cyclist want to play by the rules of the road? I doubt posterity or gumption come to mind when you're trying to get from A to B in morning traffic. Very little chance of being pursued or apprehended by the cops too. Cops aren't bothered enforcing the law unless you really p1ss them off.

You must be new here.

Mongfinder General

stetyrrell wrote: »

You must be new here.

I see it every morning. Dame Street/College Green is like a scene from Mad Max.

du Maurier

Just as an aside (a few pages back) to refer to seemingly hazardous/difficult junctions to negotiate, but this one on Macken Street usually has a number of car horns blaring and motorists frustrated with cyclists.

There's a left turn signal currently (not sure if it's present in that link) which allows those in the left lane to do just that. That's fine for a cyclist should he position himself more central (and a little ahead of traffic).

But where it starts to get a little hairy is that the full green light indicates roughly a few seconds after this - leaving the cyclist somewhat deserted in the centre of the road, and through pains to re-assimilate to the left-hand side of the road should he be going straight on.

I always find that I have to be alert to the point of setting off a fraction of a second early (some may deem this not in keeping with the rules) just to find myself safe to the left rather than the centre.

The problem lies with those that are initially in the left lane (and should only be going left if they chose to take that lane) getting the full green light and bombing straight on from that lane, thus having cyclists to negotiate returning to the LHS with two rows of traffic behind them.

I'm not sure if you get exactly what I'm trying to convey in this instance, but for those of you who do take this route I would imagine you'd be quite familar with this debacle.

My apologies for the drawn out post.




https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.342866,-6.241136&spn=0.014399,0.042272&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.34298,-6.241115&panoid=HfDx0HPBMALlWBe5-o2hTA&cbp=12,168.59,,0,0

Chips Lovell

In 2008, 2 per cent of all journeys in London are made by bike.

The most recent figure for Dublin is 8.8 per cent.

ThisRegard

The problem lies with those that are initially in the left lane (and should only be going left if they chose to take that lane) getting the full green light and bombing straight on from that lane, thus having cyclists to negotiate returning to the LHS with two rows of traffic behind them.

That lane never used to be a left turn only lane, you could always go straight across Pearse Street towards Grand Canal Street. If it's left only it has only happened recently.

Grassey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqg233-rCLo&feature


But who will fine the Gardai for jumping d lights?

Lifted from this thread in motors....


http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056999169/1/

galwaycyclist

du Maurier wrote: »

Just as an aside (a few pages back) to refer to seemingly hazardous/difficult junctions to negotiate, but this one on Macken Street usually has a number of car horns blaring and motorists frustrated with cyclists.

There's a left turn signal currently (not sure if it's present in that link) which allows those in the left lane to do just that. That's fine for a cyclist should he position himself more central (and a little ahead of traffic).

But where it starts to get a little hairy is that the full green light indicates roughly a few seconds after this - leaving the cyclist somewhat deserted in the centre of the road, and through pains to re-assimilate to the left-hand side of the road should he be going straight on.

I always find that I have to be alert to the point of setting off a fraction of a second early (some may deem this not in keeping with the rules) just to find myself safe to the left rather than the centre.

The problem lies with those that are initially in the left lane (and should only be going left if they chose to take that lane) getting the full green light and bombing straight on from that lane, thus having cyclists to negotiate returning to the LHS with two rows of traffic behind them.

I'm not sure if you get exactly what I'm trying to convey in this instance, but for those of you who do take this route I would imagine you'd be quite familar with this debacle.

My apologies for the drawn out post.



https://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.342866,-6.241136&spn=0.014399,0.042272&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.34298,-6.241115&panoid=HfDx0HPBMALlWBe5-o2hTA&cbp=12,168.59,,0,0

I would argue that the use of separate left-filter lights at traffic signals constitutes negligent and incompetent road design, unless the designer has provided somewhere for straight on cyclists to wait when they reach the top of the queue eg an ASL/Bike box, or a central cycle lane to the right of the left turn lane.

Cyclists will almost always be fed into the junction on the left and the fact that some engineer has marked a left-turn lane does not in my view absolve them from a duty to consider how cyclists might reasonably be expected to use the junction.

If a cyclist finds themselves in such a position, wanting to go ahead but stuck in a left turn lane that has a green signal they face a snap decision to push forward across the stop line - technically illegal, or pull in the left and get trapped inside a stream of turning traffic. Neither is acceptable.

buffalo

galwaycyclist wrote: »

If a cyclist finds themselves in such a position, wanting to go ahead but stuck in a left turn lane that has a green signal they face a snap decision to push forward across the stop line - technically illegal, or pull in the left and get trapped inside a stream of turning traffic. Neither is acceptable.

I find myself pondering this at the south end of St Stephen's Green East, where a single bus/cycle lane serves for both straight on and left-turning traffic, and the light is predominantly green for only left turning traffic.

I don't like to wait at the outside of the lane (as I would if there were split left/straight lanes) because it impedes the ability of buses to turn wide (and they might hit me). I don't like to take the lane, because I'll be holding up the bus traffic. But I have found, when I wait at the inside, that the buses take this as a submissive position, and have stopped and boxed me in. So many messages warn of the dangers of going up the inside of a left-turning vehicle, and yet here's a junction where I feel compelled to put myself potentially in that position. What to do?