Fixed Penalty Notices for Cycling by end of year

droidus

It really is baffling to me how cyclists get tagged with the 'arrogant' label so often...

magicbastarder

you cited pedestrians being able to cross the road. they have specific pedestrian infrastructure and lights to assist. which the cyclist can use, but it renders the debate about cyclists and the ROTR moot if the cyclist has to abandon the road.

manwithaplan

To counteract my facetiousness, of course I acknowledge that road design has to take account of cyclists. Multi-lane roads with few or no alternative routes for cyclists are a problem and I have no doubt that having to tackle a right turn on such a road or negotiating a multi-lane roundabout doesn't exactly make cycling attractive for many people. However, there is a limit. If a short left turn filter lane or having to cross a couple of lanes in the city centre to make a right turn is a major problem, people should really brush up on their cycling skills rather than look for these things to be systematically designed out.

magicbastarder

getting back to the original debate, does anyone know how this went? was it rolled out?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9067129/Paris-cyclists-given-right-to-break-traffic-laws.html

Beasty

magicbastarder wrote: »

getting back to the original debate, does anyone know how this went? was it rolled out?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9067129/Paris-cyclists-given-right-to-break-traffic-laws.html

Yeah - there were a load of guys who had a field day cycling round the Arc de Triomphe on Sunday and every one of them survived

CramCycle

droidus wrote: »

post#330

There are two solutions to this, very simple. One, start merging very early and keep to the right hand side of the southbound traffic in good time, there are s many lights here, it is far from impossible to find a gap, I do this at 25kph with no difficulty.

The other is to stop at the junction, dismount and wait for the pedestrian crossing. I don't think it is the right way but it is a viable solution till your confidence improves.

galwaycyclist

manwithaplan wrote: »

To counteract my facetiousness, of course I acknowledge that road design has to take account of cyclists. Multi-lane roads with few or no alternative routes for cyclists are a problem and I have no doubt that having to tackle a right turn on such a road or negotiating a multi-lane roundabout doesn't exactly make cycling attractive for many people. However, there is a limit. If a short left turn filter lane or having to cross a couple of lanes in the city centre to make a right turn is a major problem, people should really brush up on their cycling skills rather than look for these things to be systematically designed out.

Sorry but you've missed the point. The central issue here is where people are expected to merge to the right to go straight ahead. A short (<30m) left filter might be ok where it clearly leaves the main carriageway on a separate alignment and enough space remains for cyclists to proceed straight on. The issue here is where the left-hand lane becomes a left-turn only lane complete with a separate left-green signal, leaving cyclists with nowhere to go except merge right or stay trapped on the left. If you don't have examples in Dublin then I can provide some from Galway.

magicbastarder

CramCycle wrote: »

There are two solutions to this, very simple. One, start merging very early and keep to the right hand side of the southbound traffic in good time, there are s many lights here, it is far from impossible to find a gap, I do this at 25kph with no difficulty.

The other is to stop at the junction, dismount and wait for the pedestrian crossing. I don't think it is the right way but it is a viable solution till your confidence improves.

it's not a small hill for someone who is not moderately fit, and the traffic would be fairly free flowing at 60kph, so is not for the faint hearted. as i mentioned, dismounting and using the pedestrian crossing is an option, but that is cementing the notion that the ROTR cannot apply fully to cyclists.

what_traffic

CramCycle wrote: »

There are two solutions to this, very simple. One, start merging very early and keep to the right hand side of the southbound traffic in good time, there are s many lights here, it is far from impossible to find a gap, I do this at 25kph with no difficulty.

The other is to stop at the junction, dismount and wait for the pedestrian crossing. I don't think it is the right way but it is a viable solution till your confidence improves.

Try stepping out of your own shoes. Could your parents do the same?
Could you do it at 15kph? Would you feel as comfortable doing it at this speed?

magicbastarder

here's the junction i mentioned (in the distance), for anyone who doesn't know it:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.284652,-6.194524&spn=0.0007,0.002064&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.284652,-6.194524&panoid=ws-SNNwkVmZTDqgblPfJCw&cbp=12,172.04,,0,19.42

CramCycle

what_traffic wrote: »

Try stepping out of your own shoes. Could your parents do the same?
Could you do it at 15kph? Would you feel as comfortable doing it at this speed?

I could and would, I actually just looked at my Strava account, apparently I do it at an average of 21kph. Thinking it through I slow on the attempt to merge over to ensure I get a break. Considering when I do it during the day, I often see other cyclists doing it slower than me, not many but a few, it is far from impossible. The light breaks make it more than doable. There is usually a red behind you giving a short break in traffic, or a red at the light as you approach, giving you a chance to filter over. I have done it with Greens, and cars have slowed and given space, they can see where I am going by my indicating with my hands, although my road position should show where I am going.

monument

The designed or not, turn left ot turn right maneuver seems like a good solution for those without the "skill" to cross a number of lanes with traffic often at 60-70km/h+.

galwaycyclist

monument wrote: »

The designed or not, turn left ot turn right maneuver seems like a good solution for those without the "skill" to cross a number of lanes with traffic often at 60-70km/h+.

Agreed - sometimes called a box turn. But if you have been invited unknowingly into a left-turn only lane by some council roads engineer and are now stuck inside a stream of turning motor traffic - how do you get across the junction to do the box turn?

CramCycle

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Agreed - sometimes called a box turn. But if you have been invited unknowingly into a left-turn only lane by some council roads engineer and are now stuck inside a stream of turning motor traffic - how do you get across the junction to do the box turn?

2 options, complete the left turn and do a U turn down that road, impractical.
The other is to keep to the right of that left turn, let left turning traffic filter on your left and merge over to the left for the stalled crossing traffic after clearing half the junction and wait till you get a green.

Robertd_07

CramCycle wrote: »

I could and would, I actually just looked at my Strava account, apparently I do it at an average of 21kph. Thinking it through I slow on the attempt to merge over to ensure I get a break. Considering when I do it during the day, I often see other cyclists doing it slower than me, not many but a few, it is far from impossible. The light breaks make it more than doable. There is usually a red behind you giving a short break in traffic, or a red at the light as you approach, giving you a chance to filter over. I have done it with Greens, and cars have slowed and given space, they can see where I am going by my indicating with my hands, although my road position should show where I am going.

I make this turn everyday too, usually at peak rush-hour, and it can be quite intimidating, given the volume and speed of the traffic.
I don't cycle in the cycle lane on this section, and generally move to the right of the bus lane just after the pedestrian lights, then cross to the right-turn lane in a break in traffic. The part I find most difficult is taxis/coaches coming up the bus lane (quite often going faster than the marked 60kph limit) making it difficult to get in position for a lane change.
Most of the cyclists I see turning at this junction use the pedestrian lights.

I feel that, while this junction is difficult, it's straightforward. If you're a confident cyclist you know what moves to make and when.
On the other hand, the junction at the N11/Fosters Avenue heading north is, in my opinion, one of the most poorly thought out junctions I've had the misfortune to come across. (Here - although it's been modified since this image was taken)

du Maurier

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I would argue that the use of separate left-filter lights at traffic signals constitutes negligent and incompetent road design, unless the designer has provided somewhere for straight on cyclists to wait when they reach the top of the queue eg an ASL/Bike box, or a central cycle lane to the right of the left turn lane.

Cyclists will almost always be fed into the junction on the left and the fact that some engineer has marked a left-turn lane does not in my view absolve them from a duty to consider how cyclists might reasonably be expected to use the junction.

If a cyclist finds themselves in such a position, wanting to go ahead but stuck in a left turn lane that has a green signal they face a snap decision to push forward across the stop line - technically illegal, or pull in the left and get trapped inside a stream of turning traffic. Neither is acceptable.

Quite succinctly put. I'd concur with it being primarily a design issue.

Trhiggy83

another way of taxing people..........what next, country is an absolute pile of horse sh#te

Raam

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

another way of taxing people..........what next, country is an absolute pile of horse sh#te

This so called tax is entirely avoidable.

Chips Lovell

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

another way of taxing people..........what next, country is an absolute pile of horse sh#te

How else do you suggest we penalise people for breaking road traffic law. Imprisonment? Flogging?

oflahero

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Sorry but you've missed the point. The central issue here is where people are expected to merge to the right to go straight ahead.

This problem has been solved in a few places. Here's an example in Rathfarnham/Templeogue (heading eastwards). You'll be well familiar with it if you do many spins out the N81. What do you think? Admittedly, road planners had a bit more space to work with here than had it been in the city centre.

https://www.google.ie/maps/preview#!data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d-6.310362!3d53.292872!2m2!1f31.44!2f66.63!4f75!2m4!1e1!2m2!1srRSgdcWCHDH-jlLVsQFd3A!2e0&fid=5

bambergbike

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

How else do you suggest we penalise people for breaking road traffic law. Imprisonment? Flogging?

The punishment should fit the crime.

Sample crime: Park in a cycle lane

Sample punishment: Pay a fine which is spent on ensuring you spend two hours being forced to play a computer game (with realistic graphics) in which you virtually "cycle" along city streets. When you cycle too close to a parked car, you get doored. When you move in after passing parked cars and then move out again abruptly, you get rear-ended. When you consistently take a line roughly where the passenger wheels of the cars are, nothing happens to you, but a queue of traffic builds up behind you. You learn that this queue of traffic is not produced by the cyclist, but by the parked cars blocking the cycle lane.

bambergbike

oflahero wrote: »

This problem has been solved in a few places. Here's an example in Rathfarnham/Templeogue (heading eastwards). You'll be well familiar with it if you do many spins out the N81. What do you think? Admittedly, road planners had a bit more space to work with here than had it been in the city centre.

https://www.google.ie/maps/preview#!data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d-6.310362!3d53.292872!2m2!1f31.44!2f66.63!4f75!2m4!1e1!2m2!1srRSgdcWCHDH-jlLVsQFd3A!2e0&fid=5

The streetview image only shows cars, I don't know what other traffic uses that road. I wouldn't personally object to using the on-road cycle lane if I had a car on either side of me, but I would be less happy if I had a truck on either side of me. The pink lane looks wide enough to accomodate a bicycle, but not wide enough to provide much of a buffer between bicycles and other vehicles.

Chips Lovell

I'm in favour of simple solutions with low costs of administration. We should empower the Gardaí to punish all offenders, whether cyclists or motorists, with one powerful kick in the crotch.

manwithaplan

bambergbike wrote: »

The punishment should fit the crime.

Sample crime: Park in a cycle lane

Sample punishment: Pay a fine which is spent on ensuring you spend two hours being forced to play a computer game (with realistic graphics) in which you virtually "cycle" along city streets. When you cycle too close to a parked car, you get doored. When you move in after passing parked cars and then move out again abruptly, you get rear-ended. When you consistently take a line roughly where the passenger wheels of the cars are, nothing happens to you, but a queue of traffic builds up behind you. You learn that this queue of traffic is not produced by the cyclist, but by the parked cars blocking the cycle lane.

This will produce one of two results:

1. "My eyes were opened today. I now understand how my actions affect others. I feel genuine empathy towards my fellow road users.", or

2. "Joe, you wouldn't believe what they have us doing now. Video games. I was expecting ET to appear in me basket and take me off to see the feckin' space invaders. They should use the e-voting machines for it, wha? I'd vote for them to cop themselves on."

oflahero

bambergbike wrote: »

The streetview image only shows cars, I don't know what other traffic uses that road. I wouldn't personally object to using the on-road cycle lane if I had a car on either side of me, but I would be less happy if I had a truck on either side of me. The pink lane looks wide enough to accomodate a bicycle, but not wide enough to provide much of a buffer between bicycles and other vehicles.

Ah jaysus. What do you want? A flyover?

* I'd love flyover bike lanes myself - no lights and extra climbing practice. I'm prepared to pay a flyover bike lane tax

Qualitymark

oflahero wrote: »

Ah jaysus. What do you want? A flyover?

* I'd love flyover bike lanes myself - no lights and extra climbing practice. I'm prepared to pay a flyover bike lane tax

Just move to Copenhagen http://www.copenhagenize.com/2011/12/innovative-elevated-cycle-track-in.html

bambergbike

oflahero wrote: »

Ah jaysus. What do you want? A flyover?

Without the cycle facility I would be:

• in a regular "car" lane with some empty space on my right and my left
• with maybe a truck in front of me, a truck behind me and trucks in the other lanes (but no trucks right next to me, close enough to touch)

Now that a cyclist facility has been jammed into what probably used to be a lane line, I could find myself stuck between two "real" lanes in a half-width lane with each of my elbows touching a different truck and less space to myself.

So should I see the new design as an improvement? A "solved" problem?

CramCycle

bambergbike wrote: »

Without the cycle facility I would be:

• in a regular "car" lane with some empty space on my right and my left
• with maybe a truck in front of me, a truck behind me and trucks in the other lanes (but no trucks right next to me, close enough to touch)

Now that a cyclist facility has been jammed into what probably used to be a lane line, I could find myself stuck between two "real" lanes in a half-width lane with each of my elbows touching a different truck and less space to myself.

So should I see the new design as an improvement? A "solved" problem?

The red there is more of a reminder than an actual lane (there is no signs up remember). Coming from Spawell, turning left at a T you find yourself coming to this junction either on the road or on the cycle path, it splits at the picture because unless you are very uncomfortable with road cycling or you are turning left, the raised cycle path puts you in a horrible position at the next junction. If traffic is stopped at the red, use the red markings, if it is not stopped, indicate out and take the lane slightly to the left of the red markings. Even someone going at 10kph will be on the road and at the junction within 10seconds. The road widens up after the junction so there is no cycle track as it is unnecessary (bar the odd car parked there). I cycled this road for 4 years and not once seen any issue with any cyclist of any level, there were racers belting it at +40, there were guys and gals on rusted hybrids barely going faster than walking pace.

nomdeboardie

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Listening to Pat Kenny, the majority of texters seem to have an issue with cyclist in general. Damien of the Dublin Cycling Campaign is arguing his points well, but Finian McGrath cycling seems to be picking and choosing examples, which were probably complaints from his constituents.

Including the 'issue' of cyclists not using cycling lanes :rolleyes: Pat did bring up the example of the N11's cycle track's roller-coaster effect, but not the fact that any obligation to use them was removed by last October's SI. I sent an email to offer this info, but it wasn't read by the end of the programme

nomdeboardie

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I would argue that the use of separate left-filter lights at traffic signals constitutes negligent and incompetent road design, unless the designer has provided somewhere for straight on cyclists to wait when they reach the top of the queue eg an ASL/Bike box, or a central cycle lane to the right of the left turn lane.

Cyclists will almost always be fed into the junction on the left and the fact that some engineer has marked a left-turn lane does not in my view absolve them from a duty to consider how cyclists might reasonably be expected to use the junction.

If a cyclist finds themselves in such a position, wanting to go ahead but stuck in a left turn lane that has a green signal they face a snap decision to push forward across the stop line - technically illegal, or pull in the left and get trapped inside a stream of turning traffic. Neither is acceptable.

OK, I'm not going to get into the negligent-incompetent arguement, but here's another example:

Temple Hill, south of Blackrock:
https://maps.google.ie/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=temple+hill&aq=&sll=53.343275,-6.281798&sspn=0.005784,0.008905&vpsrc=0&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cn%C3%B3c+an+Teampaill&ll=53.296388,-6.170003&spn=0.011529,0.01781&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.296519,-6.170083&panoid=RGImefx7sVmIFwl7Ug04oA&cbp=12,135.52,,0,1.41
Left lane is for traffic splitting off left onto Monkstown Road or continuing straight ahead. When cycling straight on full green I 'take the lane' a few metres before the junction to avoid being swept left. However a portion of the sequence has the leftmost light green while the straight-on are red (left filter). If I stop at the line I block traffic, unless I hug the kerb. if I do the latter i might not be able to get away again through left-turning traffic. So I usually go past the line (and left-most light) and stop to the right of the little island (and before the lights at the other side of the junction), out of the way of all traffic. So technicaly this is illegal(?), but I think it makes the most sense

oflahero

bambergbike wrote: »

Without the cycle facility I would be:

• in a regular "car" lane with some empty space on my right and my left

You regularly take the whole lane at the lights? From observation, I don't think that's most people's experience (or mine). For them, this is an improvement. Lights always seem to be against me though, which is a downer as I'm nearly home at that point and the stop/start will bring my average speed from 28 down to 27.9...

TheChizler

PerrDub wrote: »

We would just hope that the Gardai will know the actual laws..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_lane_marking

Is that's what's appeared on the quays in Cork in recent times? Every so often there's just a bike symbol painted on the ground, no signage or any sort of explanation. Thought it meant watch out for bikes or something. Suppose that's the gist of it...

el tel

CYCLING IRELAND STATEMENT REGARDING ON THE SPOT FINES:

“Cycling Ireland believes that all road users should obey the rules of the road, whether they are cyclists or motorists. We support the introduction of measures that ensure these rules are obeyed. Road users should respect each other.”

Chips Lovell

Fair play. Nice to see them adopt a sensible stance.

rollingscone

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Fair play. Nice to see them adopt a sensible stance.

This. I'm just waiting for the day that I get taken out by some RLJer shooting by on my inside while I'm stopped at lights.

hueylewis

Completely in favour of punishing reckless cycling behaviour. Same rules should apply to all road users.

Qualitymark

hueylewis wrote: »

Completely in favour of punishing reckless cycling behaviour. Same rules should apply to all road users.

They already do.

But I don't hear any talk of fining drivers on the spot for crashing the lights, eh?

hueylewis

Qualitymark wrote: »

They already do.

But I don't hear any talk of fining drivers on the spot for crashing the lights, eh?

I could have sworn there was a fine and points for cars caught running reds?

Beasty

hueylewis wrote: »

I could have sworn there was a fine and points for cars caught running reds?

Yep, minimum 2 points and €80 fine

@Qualitymark, there's no talk of it as these penalties have been in place for some time

Qualitymark

hueylewis wrote: »

I could have sworn there was a fine and points for cars caught running reds?

Not an on-the-spot fine, which is what's being suggested for cyclists.

TheChizler

Qualitymark wrote: »

Not an on-the-spot fine, which is what's being suggested for cyclists.

But there is though?

AltAccount

Qualitymark wrote: »

Not an on-the-spot fine, which is what's being suggested for cyclists.

I presume it's "Failure to Obey Traffic Lights"?

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf

Beasty

@Qualitymark

"On the spot" does not mean you pay there and then, simply that you get a fixed penalty notice that must be paid within a certain period

In this case cyclists are getting a lower fine than motorists and it would appear twice as long to pay, so I don't think there can be any suggestion that cyclists are being treated any less favourably than motorists

magicbastarder

it's referred to as 'on the spot' because the fine is decided at the time of the offence, unlike the current/old situation where you be referred to court where a judge would decide the penalty.

RainyDay

hueylewis wrote: »

Same rules should apply to all road users.

Grand, so 99% of reckless cycling should go unpunished, just like 99% of reckless driving.

micar

as a cyclist who does stop at red lights, I welcome on the spot fines. I have yet to see a Garda enforcing this. I travel from Santry through town every day.

Was out yesterday and came to a red light at a crossroads. Myself and another cyclist stopped.

After this, all the pedestrian lights went green. Myself and the other cyclist stayed put.

But from your left, a family (father, mother, son and daughter) just went through the red light and turned right.

We should be responsible for obeying the ROTR. But parents should be setting an example to their children in obeying these rules.

DrMike

In response to the implementation of Fixed-Charge Notices by Gardai as from today the Dublin Cycling Campaign issued this statement this morning.

Gardaí urged to make cycle lanes and tracks safe for use

31 July, Dublin, Ireland

Dublin Cycling Campaign “liberated” a section of cycle lane on Ranelagh Road (near Elmpark Avenue) between 8.30 and 9.30am this morning to highlight the issue of illegal parking in cycle lanes and the danger this poses to people travelling by bike. This problem is well known to anyone who cycles regularly in Dublin yet the Gardai only managed nationally to issue 144 fines to drivers who parked illegally in cycle lanes in all of 2014. When a cycle lane is blocked it forces people on bikes to veer into the main stream of traffic. This is particularly problematic and scary for children and those new to urban cycling.

Dublin Cycling Campaign recently started the Twitter campaign #FreeTheCycleLanes @Dublincycling to highlight the issue. Hundreds of instances of illegal parking in cycle lanes/clearways during their period of operation have been posted already.

Cyclist.ie, the Irish Cycling Advocacy Network, recently met with An Garda Síochána to discuss the planned introduction of on-the-spot fines for a range of cycling offences on the 1st August. They raised the issue of fly-parking in cycling lanes and the lack of enforcement. The Garda response was that they are reluctant to target drivers who park illegally because the drivers are trying to make the city work economically – for deliveries, etc. and the Gardaí get a lot of complaints from businesses, business associations, truck drivers, taxis and transport companies about strict enforcement of this regulation.

“The Gardaí are using discretionary policing to allow motorists to park willy-nilly in cycle lanes, rather than considering how to make the roads safer for people who cycle…….or might cycle if conditions were more conducive” says Keith Byrne, Chair of the Dublin Cycling Campaign.

Dublin Cycling Campaign is calling for serious issues of speeding, dangerous overtaking and parking in cycle lanes to be addressed in a way that will make Irish roads safe and attractive environments in which to walk or cycle for people of all ages and abilities.
Dublin Cycling Campaign is an independent, voluntary group lobbying local and national government to bring about improved conditions for cyclists and greater recognition of the benefits of cycling. See Dublin Cycling Campaign web-site

Deagol

DrMike wrote: »

The Garda response was that they are reluctant to target drivers who park illegally because the drivers are trying to make the city work economically – for deliveries, etc. and the Gardaí get a lot of complaints from businesses, business associations, truck drivers, taxis and transport companies about strict enforcement of this regulation.

That line tells us precisely how mickey-mouse the policing in this country is. You could break it down to "we are too scared to ticket people breaking the law because they might shout at us".

Jawgap

DrMike wrote: »

........ They raised the issue of fly-parking in cycling lanes and the lack of enforcement. The Garda response was that they are reluctant to target drivers who park illegally because the drivers are trying to make the city work economically – for deliveries, etc. and the Gardaí get a lot of complaints from businesses, business associations, truck drivers, taxis and transport companies about strict enforcement of this regulation.

.....

Grand so, as long as there's loads of complaints about FCPNs being issued to cyclists, the Guards will just leave it :rolleyes:

From my own perspective, I understand the city has to function - but that means it has to function - in other words why don't they ticket the drivers who park dangerously or who obstruct traffic. Every morning I come in to the city I see at least one example of a truck parked dangerously and / or parked in such a way as to prevent buses or other large vehicles making turns, thus blocking up the traffic!

Also they could also tell companies to get their deliveries completed by 0700 - because after that it should be open season on people ignoring clearways etc....

........unless they have their hazards on - that cures everything!

dceire

Jawgap wrote: »

Also they could also tell companies to get their deliveries completed by 0700 - because after that it should be open season on people ignoring clearways etc....

........unless they have their hazards on - that cures everything!

Don't be so ridiculous. That sounds too much like sense for it ever to be implemented. We don't do sense in this country.